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Post by Z-A Sandbaggin' Son of a b!%@h on Apr 10, 2013 21:59:54 GMT -5
Why should a man who's had a sex change be allowed to beat the shit out of women.
Maybe he said some stuff out of line. But it is pretty f***ed up to think its ok to beat on women.
But then again. "-phobic" is the new cool it seems. Because disagreeing with something makes you a biggot and an ass hole. These kinda thread piss me off. I said too sensitive in a different thread and got lambasted for it. But it's true. Someone says one thing that offends someone and they become public enemy number one. Every single thread that pops up like this is just another excuse to argue a point. Ugh.
Men beating women is bad.
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 11, 2013 12:15:20 GMT -5
Good thing she isn't a man, then, I guess.
It's not a matter of what is the new cool or something. Trans people get shit on quite a lot. They do have a lot of discrimination to deal with very often, with many comedies using them as a "trap" punchline, with having a lack of help from their insurance in pursuing their transition, and other issues. Maybe you feel like people are just offended to be offended, but they just want to be acknowledged.
If you feel she has an unfair advantage potentially like Sean covered on the first page, then yeah, that is debatable and legitimate, but it's not an issue of chivalry, and I bet female MMA fighters would not want to be coddled like that. They didn't get into MMA to be babied.
This said, I am not jumping down your throat. I am glad you are being open and honest about how you feel and your anger on the topic, but I just feel like you are looking at this from, personally, the wrong perspective. She is not a man, not legally, and this is not an overnight change. She had to be mentally evaluated, and go through a very long process, medically and legally, to get here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2013 13:07:23 GMT -5
Minus the insults and foul language he's spot on with his remarks. The same thing Joe Rogan said, only he spoke his thoughts in a PC way.
Fallon Fox has s ridiculous advantage over any female fighter, there's no way denying that.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Apr 13, 2013 7:18:29 GMT -5
Why should a man who's had a sex change be allowed to beat the shit out of women. That's a very black and white way of looking at things. And before you say that some things are black and white, hear me out. The way you're phrasing it, you seem to be implying that Fox got into this because he woke up one day and said "Hey, you know what would be really fun? Beating up women! I want to do that because I'm an evil monster! But sadly, society won't allow me to, because I'm a man. Therefore, in order for it to be acceptable, I need to undergo sexual reassignment surgery and physically become a woman! Problem solved!" Now hey, maybe that's not what you actually meant, but when you talk about Fox still being a man and him "beating the shit out of women", that's what it sounds like. You make it sound like this is the same thing as male-on-female spousal abuse. Which it isn't, for so many reasons. First, the women who fight Fox know exactly what they are getting into, and choose whether to fight or not. Second, individuals who choose to fight for a living are going to get beaten up no matter what. You were, I presume, not getting upset when those same women were "having the shit beat out of them" by other women. I don't see what difference it makes if somebody who used to physically be male competes against them. Third, since this is primarily a wrestling board, if you have a problem with this then you should also have a big problem with CHIKARA and other promotions which book male wrestlers against female wrestlers. Because that's the same thing; obviously the women in those matches are going to take bumps, and when El Generico hit Sara Del Rey with a chop in their match it hurt Sara Del Rey. Does that make El Generico the scum of the earth? Um, no. No it doesn't, because Sara Del Rey agreed to it, knew what she was getting into, and did not wind up injured. The only friggin' question that should be asked here is whether Fallon Fox has a huge, insurmountable advantage over her opponents and, if so, how that will affect Fox's Win/Loss record. The reason that question should be asked is the same reason that people ask whether this guy or that guy is using PEDs; it is unfair to the person not juicing. And in those cases, well, take Alistair Overeem. Would you be getting pissed because Overeem was allowed to beat the shit out of men who were less muscular and weaker than himself and you felt sorry for the pain those men were suffering and you considered the violence barbaric and unacceptable? Or would you be saying something like "Hey, it's okay for him to hit them; he just shouldn't be doing it after shooting himself full of steroids"? Isn't that kind of a double standard? Why do you feel it's okay for a larger person to beat up a smaller person if both are the same sex, but have a huge problem with it if the large person is male (or in this case, formerly male) and the smaller person is female? Either way, one person has a physical advantage. EDIT: Oh yeah, and fourth? The probability of Fox just having SRS for the hell of it is astronomically low. Listen, transsexuals have basically two choices in life. They can either become the sex they feel comfortable as--the process of which is long and difficult and is absolutely not something anybody does on a whim--or they can spend their lives feeling like shit. That is almost certainly why Fox had the treatments; because in a male body, she felt like shit. I've seen people say that Fox "chose" to become a woman, and that's bullshit. Fox had a condition that required surgery. Here's an analogy: somebody has no functioning kidneys. They need to have dialysis on a regular basis. Then, one day, it turns out that there's a kidney available and that person can get a transplant. Saying that Fox had a choice whether to live as a woman or a man is like saying that the person without kidneys has a "choice" whether to continue living without kidneys or whether to start living with a functioning kidney again. Obviously, anybody in their right mind, anybody who preferred to avoid suffering, would get the transplant. If you're a transsexual, and you prefer to avoid suffering or at least to take the route that involves the least suffering like just about every other human being alive, you undergo HRT and SRS and so on. |
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Post by Piccolo on Apr 13, 2013 8:50:53 GMT -5
First, the women who fight Fox know exactly what they are getting into, and choose whether to fight or not. Is this the truth? I thought this whole controversy came about because she didn't disclose her past as a man in her initial fights. |
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Apr 13, 2013 9:12:10 GMT -5
Not in her first two (possibly because she wanted to avoid exactly what's going on right now), but at this point they do know.
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Post by Piccolo on Apr 13, 2013 9:37:32 GMT -5
Right. So while insults about the fact that she's transgendered are absolutely out of line, I don't think negative comments about her character are unwarranted.
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Post by Sam Punk on Apr 13, 2013 9:47:20 GMT -5
Here's an analogy: somebody has no functioning kidneys. They need to have dialysis on a regular basis. Then, one day, it turns out that there's a kidney available and that person can get a transplant. Saying that Fox had a choice whether to live as a woman or a man is like saying that the person without kidneys has a "choice" whether to continue living without kidneys or whether to start living with a functioning kidney again. Obviously, anybody in their right mind, anybody who preferred to avoid suffering, would get the transplant. If you're a transsexual, and you prefer to avoid suffering or at least to take the route that involves the least suffering like just about every other human being alive, you undergo HRT and SRS and so on. That's not such a great analogy. You'll die without a functioning kidney. I've never heard of anyone dying (of natural causes) due to not getting a sex change operation. |
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Apr 13, 2013 11:56:48 GMT -5
Here's an analogy: somebody has no functioning kidneys. They need to have dialysis on a regular basis. Then, one day, it turns out that there's a kidney available and that person can get a transplant. Saying that Fox had a choice whether to live as a woman or a man is like saying that the person without kidneys has a "choice" whether to continue living without kidneys or whether to start living with a functioning kidney again. Obviously, anybody in their right mind, anybody who preferred to avoid suffering, would get the transplant. If you're a transsexual, and you prefer to avoid suffering or at least to take the route that involves the least suffering like just about every other human being alive, you undergo HRT and SRS and so on. That's not such a great analogy. You'll die without a functioning kidney. I've never heard of anyone dying (of natural causes) due to not getting a sex change operation. Okay, maybe not. Change the kidney thing to a different condition that's non-life-threatening but still really grueling to live with, though, and you get what I'm saying. |
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Apr 13, 2013 13:12:38 GMT -5
But then again. "-phobic" is the new cool it seems. Because disagreeing with something makes you a biggot and an ass hole. These kinda thread piss me off. I said too sensitive in a different thread and got lambasted for it. But it's true. Someone says one thing that offends someone and they become public enemy number one. Every single thread that pops up like this is just another excuse to argue a point. Ugh. As mentioned in the Bully Ray thread, I think anybody annoyed that people appear to be too sensitive 'these days' need to realise how connected the entire world is, and how near enough everybody and every event and everything they utter is easily broadcast to an audience of hundreds of millions. If people who say annoying, offensive or stupid things don't like being pulled up on them by an instantly connected group of people from all over the world with the same beliefs and same amount of respect for the way another person wants to live their lives then they shouldn't say annoying, offensive or stupid things. There's a chance Mitrione probably could have added something worthwhile to the debate about whether something like this is fair, but i'm willing to bet somebody spewing bullshit like - ""That is a lying, sick, sociopathic, disgusting freak. And I mean that."" Doesn't have the capacity to. Wanting to go back to a point in time where people aren't spoken back to for uttering garbage is nonsense. |
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Post by Andy Martin on Apr 13, 2013 13:44:07 GMT -5
He's right. But he shouldn't have been so harsh with it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 16:51:56 GMT -5
Here's an analogy: somebody has no functioning kidneys. They need to have dialysis on a regular basis. Then, one day, it turns out that there's a kidney available and that person can get a transplant. Saying that Fox had a choice whether to live as a woman or a man is like saying that the person without kidneys has a "choice" whether to continue living without kidneys or whether to start living with a functioning kidney again. Obviously, anybody in their right mind, anybody who preferred to avoid suffering, would get the transplant. If you're a transsexual, and you prefer to avoid suffering or at least to take the route that involves the least suffering like just about every other human being alive, you undergo HRT and SRS and so on. That's not such a great analogy. You'll die without a functioning kidney. I've never heard of anyone dying (of natural causes) due to not getting a sex change operation. You'd be amazed at how many suicides occur over the matter. EDIT: just saw "of natural causes" so I apologise, but at the same time "of natural causes" passes off the idea that gender is a choice (much like when people incorrectly say being gay/bi etc is a choice). |
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Post by Piccolo on Apr 13, 2013 20:58:55 GMT -5
"at the same time "of natural causes" passes off the idea that gender is a choice (much like when people incorrectly say being gay/bi etc is a choice)."
Oh no, man. I strongly, strongly disagree with that. Suicide is not dying of natural causes. Natural causes can make you depressed (the natural death of a relative, the natural disaster that destroyed your house, the natural dissonance between your physical gender and your mental gender), social causes can make you feel cornered and like there's no way out, but putting a gun to your head, taking sleeping pills, drowning yourself, hanging yourself, these are not "dying of natural causes." Saying so is absolutely not equivalent to suggesting that you chose the circumstances that led to your depression.
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Post by Sigma: Current SRW Champ! on Apr 13, 2013 23:40:08 GMT -5
On the subject of Fallon Fox, she now has a fight in the CFA Featherweight Semifinals against Allanna Jones. So, she'll still get work as a fighter, but for how long is the question.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 14, 2013 1:05:20 GMT -5
On the subject of Fallon Fox, she now has a fight in the CFA Featherweight Semifinals against Allanna Jones. So, she'll still get work as a fighter, but for how long is the question. Well Also Cyborg said she would be willing fight fox but then again I'm sure Cyborg would be game for fighting guys at 145 as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2013 7:34:48 GMT -5
In MMA if you a pound more than you're opponent, it's considered an unfair advantage. So I would think being a completely different gender just might give you a bit more of an advantage.
If not allowing transgenders to fight women is discrimination. Then not allowing Heavyweights to fight flyweights is also.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Apr 14, 2013 9:04:03 GMT -5
In MMA if you a pound more than you're opponent, it's considered an unfair advantage. So I would think being a completely different gender just might give you a bit more of an advantage. If not allowing transgenders to fight women is discrimination. Then not allowing Heavyweights to fight flyweights is also. Okay, but I'm looking at the height/weight of Cain Velasquez and Antonio Silva right now, and I see that Silva is three inches taller and twenty-two pounds heavier. One guy had a physical advantage, yet that fight was allowed to go on (with Velasquez winning despite Silva having that advantage). Somebody walking in with some kind of physical advantage is nothing new. And as far as just H/W go Fox has less of a size advantage over Ronda Rousey, say, than Silva did over Velasquez. (As for how much bone structure and so on changes or doesn't change because of hormone therapy, and how much of an advantage somebody would have if we assume that it didn't change even a little...I don't know enough about that, and don't have any links to anything relevant right now, so I'll refrain from commenting.) |
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Post by Angus Mcloud on Apr 14, 2013 12:05:41 GMT -5
Not in her first two (possibly because she wanted to avoid exactly what's going on right now), but at this point they do know. Avoid being called out on basically being a man beating up women? So are all these people supporting him/her ok with if a women smacks a man then the man can smack her back? Just asking |
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Apr 14, 2013 16:05:43 GMT -5
Not in her first two (possibly because she wanted to avoid exactly what's going on right now), but at this point they do know. Avoid being called out on basically being a man beating up women? So are all these people supporting him/her ok with if a women smacks a man then the man can smack her back? Just asking First of all, if you're always going to think of somebody who has had SRS and HRT as a man, and if you're going to say "that's a man beating up a woman" when they get into a fight with a woman...to me, that says you have a pretty serious problem with trans people. You don't accept one who is MtF as a woman, not even after they've been legally declared as such. Second, I don't know what you're trying to prove with your silly question, but I don't think anybody should be hitting anybody unprovoked. I do not believe that anybody should allow anybody else to beat on them. If somebody were to hit me and continue to hit me, I would do my best to make them stop. If the only way I were able to do that involved hitting back, I would not feel guilty about it. Not if the alternative is ending up like Ric Flair did after his ex-wife attacked him. What are you going to say now? That that makes me as bad as Chris Brown or something? |
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Post by Angus Mcloud on Apr 14, 2013 16:32:07 GMT -5
Avoid being called out on basically being a man beating up women? So are all these people supporting him/her ok with if a women smacks a man then the man can smack her back? Just asking First of all, if you're always going to think of somebody who has had SRS and HRT as a man, and if you're going to say "that's a man beating up a woman" when they get into a fight with a woman...to me, that says you have a pretty serious problem with trans people. You don't accept one who is MtF as a woman, not even after they've been legally declared as such. Second, I don't know what you're trying to prove with your silly question, but I don't think anybody should be hitting anybody unprovoked. I do not believe that anybody should allow anybody else to beat on them. If somebody were to hit me and continue to hit me, I would do my best to make them stop. If the only way I were able to do that involved hitting back, I would not feel guilty about it. Not if the alternative is ending up like Ric Flair did after his ex-wife attacked him. What are you going to say now? That that makes me as bad as Chris Brown or something? I have zero problems with the transgendered. I'll call them she or he whatever they want. But you can't just forget what they were. And no I wouldn't attack you for the second thing. More respect to you for sticking by those guns. I have no problems with that. I was legit just asking out of curiosity |
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