SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Apr 9, 2013 17:31:02 GMT -5
Or maybe, you know, people are finally realizing how marginalized and misunderstood the trans-community is and finally having the same tolerance for transphobia that they have for homophobia and racism. Gender-corrective surgery is no different than any other corrective surgery. Being homosexual doesn't give you any sort of definitive physical advantage in sports, though. That's the difference here. It's really a "is it fair?" argument in this case with Fox as opposed to a respect and acceptance one. I think that's where all the drama is coming from. One side is vehemently defending Fox's right to fight as a woman as if it finally validates their cause. And some detractors are looking at it through prejudice eyes, more offended that Fox used to be a man, or are threatened by it in some cases. However, the *true* argument is whether it's fair and whether Fox would have an advantage based on certain body structure and biology that, even with surgery, has not been corrected.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 9, 2013 19:27:43 GMT -5
Everyone's favorite glass jawed brit James Thompson does a pretty good job of summing up the issue here....
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zeez
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Post by zeez on Apr 9, 2013 19:29:46 GMT -5
I've read a lot of comments on MMA news sites over the last few weeks that make Matt look flattering in comparison. Fallon Fox is bringing out the worst in this community, but it's a highly controversial issue so it'll do that. There are arguments for transgender fighters fighting women (or men) and those against. Some have some scientific or factual basis and most don't. It's hard to say for sure since there is relatively little research that has been done on this specific subject but that ain't stopping people from picking sides.
I'm not too bothered by what Matt said, as it is a valid point that a transgender male-to-female fighter could possess an unfair advantage over a biological female fighter (I said COULD, not that she does). What I am bothered by is that he called Fallon a freak. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being transgender. I hate that this is devolving into stupid name calling that doesn't make a point one way or another and serves to spread ignorance when there is a legitimate moral and ethical issue at the center of this that needs a deeper discussion and a lot more research conducted before an intelligent decision can be made one or another, all though that is a discussion that will be impossible to have without angering one side or the other. Transgender fighters should have the right to fight, but what if it puts their opponent in unnecessary danger? I'm very interested to see how this plays out.
NOTE: I don't claim to know what I am talking about. Just like the majority of people weighing in on it. I'm just willing to admit that up front.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 9, 2013 19:50:08 GMT -5
Social Progress aspects aside, I'm not sure that someone who has a sex change should be able to fight as their 'new' gender.
Not because I'm a bigot or a hater (OBVIOUSLY, think about it...), but mostly due to the genetic aspect of it.
I'm not convinced that all the surgery and hormone replacement in the world "evens the playing field" in that regard.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Apr 9, 2013 20:00:27 GMT -5
Good. He deserved it.
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segaz
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Post by segaz on Apr 9, 2013 20:31:43 GMT -5
That's right. He shouldn't have called the person a freak. A lot of people agree. The fact that his insults were wrong has already been established. Now how about stopping taking the easy way out, and actually addressing the REAL subject here? ooops, guess that'd be a little too much for ya huh? My opinion? How about we extend this to all sports? Should it be ok for a guy to have a sex change operation and then compete in the female counterpart of ANY sport? I don't think it should tbh. It's like who you are doesn't matter....but it kind of does. Problem is, we can't really discuss the whole issue of 'equality' in transgender here. There was a show that had a woman seducing men who used to be a man, but none of the guys knew until after the show aired. They were able to successfully sue the producers for 'falsifying information' or something. but wait a sec! if she underwent a sex change operation, she is now a woman, and should be treated as such! But wait! I'd sure like to know if the chick I was dating used to be a man! But wait! It shouldn't matter! What's INSIDE counts right? But wait! She should be upfront from the start about her past etc etc etc going off tangent a little here, but in my view, if you want to change sex, fine. If you want to go through with it, fine. But in all honesty, there are some taboos that just can't be crossed. It is kind of unfair for transgender females to compete with uh.........'natural' females. Sorry, if there's a better word to use mods, let me know
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 9, 2013 20:38:11 GMT -5
I personally think he would have likely been suspended for the rape joke, anyway, but this sealed it. He is a public figure and he needs to understand that if he wants to say something like this, he needs to be absolutely clear with who he is talking about and just them. Maybe it doesn't seem fair, but when he conducts interviews, he needs to know what kind of damage he can do.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Apr 9, 2013 20:44:57 GMT -5
Social Progress aspects aside, I'm not sure that someone who has a sex change should be able to fight as their 'new' gender. Not because I'm a bigot or a hater (OBVIOUSLY, think about it...), but mostly due to the genetic aspect of it. I'm not convinced that all the surgery and hormone replacement in the world "evens the playing field" in that regard. I agree, I don't think Fallon should be able to fight women. I mean if you want to use an extreme example what if Anderson Silva had been quietly battling gender issues his whole life and wanted to live his life as a transgender. Should he then be allowed to face women? Of course not, he'd kill them. It's a tough you want to TRY to treat everyone with an equal brushstroke but obviously Fallon Fox has physical advantages over female counterparts, and it would seem wrong if Fallon were to fight men.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 9, 2013 21:08:18 GMT -5
On a slightly more lighthearted (but probably offensive to some anyway) note, "Fallon Fox" is totally a porn star name.
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Sam Punk
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Post by Sam Punk on Apr 9, 2013 22:20:52 GMT -5
transphobic? Welcome to 2013 where all people are expected to be respected and treated as human beings. It's pretty cool. Not that I disagree. I just think it's silly to add "phobic" to everything.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Apr 9, 2013 22:56:13 GMT -5
That's right. He shouldn't have called the person a freak. A lot of people agree. The fact that his insults were wrong has already been established. Now how about stopping taking the easy way out, and actually addressing the REAL subject here? ooops, guess that'd be a little too much for ya huh? My opinion? How about we extend this to all sports? Should it be ok for a guy to have a sex change operation and then compete in the female counterpart of ANY sport? I don't think it should tbh. It's like who you are doesn't matter....but it kind of does. Problem is, we can't really discuss the whole issue of 'equality' in transgender here. There was a show that had a woman seducing men who used to be a man, but none of the guys knew until after the show aired. They were able to successfully sue the producers for 'falsifying information' or something. but wait a sec! if she underwent a sex change operation, she is now a woman, and should be treated as such! But wait! I'd sure like to know if the chick I was dating used to be a man! But wait! It shouldn't matter! What's INSIDE counts right? But wait! She should be upfront from the start about her past etc etc etc going off tangent a little here, but in my view, if you want to change sex, fine. If you want to go through with it, fine. But in all honesty, there are some taboos that just can't be crossed. It is kind of unfair for transgender females to compete with uh.........'natural' females. Sorry, if there's a better word to use mods, let me know
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 9, 2013 23:44:24 GMT -5
I'm not too bothered by what Matt said, as it is a valid point that a transgender male-to-female fighter could possess an unfair advantage over a biological female fighter (I said COULD, not that she does). What I am bothered by is that he called Fallon a freak. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being transgender. Thats what has annoyed about this whole debacle. I mean your right like other MMA fighters who said the same thing, Mitrione had indeed made a valid point about how a M to F trans fighter could possibly have a unfair advantage in competition (which I agree with). But having to explain to twats on an other forum who have been foaming at the mouth saying that his suspension is political correctness gone made, why calling someone who is transgender a freak seriously isn't cool has been brain destroying. But that being said I can't help but feel that that real reason why Mitrione has been punished has less to do with the UFC being a self proclaimed friend and ally of the LGBT community but rather because Dana White has realize that he can no longer just brush side idiotic comments like this when made by his fighters.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 9, 2013 23:52:19 GMT -5
I'm not convinced that all the surgery and hormone replacement in the world "evens the playing field" in that regard. Why do you think it wouldn't? I mean, I understand where the people questioning it are coming from on the issue of fairness, but the Nevada State Athletic Commission, after rigorous testing, gave her the OK. Considering their history of regulations, if they're fine with it, I'm fine with it.
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Post by Chuckie Finster on Apr 10, 2013 0:19:25 GMT -5
I personally think he would have likely been suspended for the rape joke, anyway, but this sealed it. He is a public figure and he needs to understand that if he wants to say something like this, he needs to be absolutely clear with who he is talking about and just them. Maybe it doesn't seem fair, but when he conducts interviews, he needs to know what kind of damage he can do. Yep. And the Chris Brown/Rihanna joke and the hate crime joke as well. Lots of stupidy besides the freak comment there. I'm not gonna jump in on the "should Fallon Fox fight" argument because I'm not knowledgeable on sex-changes, but there were better ways of letting his opinion known. Now if he said his opinion without the tasteless jokes and the freak comment, he might have still gotten in trouble if the LGBT folks raised a ruckus anyway and there it's a different argument, but Mitrione went too far to get the benefit here IMO.
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Post by ThereIsNoAbsurdistOnlyZuul on Apr 10, 2013 0:42:58 GMT -5
I'm not convinced that all the surgery and hormone replacement in the world "evens the playing field" in that regard. Why do you think it wouldn't? I mean, I understand where the people questioning it are coming from on the issue of fairness, but the Nevada State Athletic Commission, after rigorous testing, gave her the OK. Considering their history of regulations, if they're fine with it, I'm fine with it. I would bet this a first for the Nevada State Athletic Commission, and there is where the problem could be. Not that it is. But let's look at it this way, prior to puberty and huge hormonal upswing that induces, people are largely the same, where only familial/inherited traits like size and body shape really matter in a physical fashion. So Fallon Fox went through puberty as a male. So there was changes in her body in that regard, there will be some conceivable edge she has because those changes cannot be undone by gender reassignment. Fallon Fox will have a fundamentally differently structured body when compared to her competitors. That said, I wont conjecture about her mental state because she would have had to go through evaluation and therapy before surgery would be approved. It is that plain and simple. But I am natural skeptic/cynic when it comes to human nature, and I am not going to push the idea that Fallon is messed up, like her ex says. Though I would agree with James Thompson's point, let her fight. But let the women she is fighting know. I mean that is the only concession needed.
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Post by Danimal on Apr 10, 2013 2:48:37 GMT -5
I didn't know that you could compete as a female as a M2F trans person. I'd say that's an unfair advantage that even surpasses performance enhancement drugs. Mitrione comes across as a douche, but the fair-play argument is kinda understandable. But then, what's fair? Is it fair that people are born with different chances of succeeding in a certain field? Maybe, a M2F trans person beating up female fighters is a price you have to pay when you want equal rights for everyone and female quotas in certain fields. If Mitrione has the gender identity of a woman and wants to be a woman that is fine, and I'm all for equal rights. But I don't think equal right means you have to throw sense out the window and pretend a transgendered woman is just the same as a born woman. Inherent advantages in sports might not be fair but they can't be avoided. Unfair advantages that come out of a choice certainly can be avoided. Mitrione choosing reassignment simply does not erase the physical advantage of being born male in terms of MMA. Even if you throw chivalry out the window male and female athletic divisions are still needed, and not letting Mitrione compete in the womens' division would simply reflect that. Now if there were enough transgendered women fighters for their own division that would be good, if they could somehow throw the drug test out and include juicing born-females like Cyborg in the division too things would be interesting as hell.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Apr 10, 2013 3:05:57 GMT -5
I'm not convinced that all the surgery and hormone replacement in the world "evens the playing field" in that regard. Why do you think it wouldn't? I mean, I understand where the people questioning it are coming from on the issue of fairness, but the Nevada State Athletic Commission, after rigorous testing, gave her the OK. Considering their history of regulations, if they're fine with it, I'm fine with it. Fallon Fox has never been sanctioned by the Las Vegas Athletic Commission, nor ever fought professionally in Vegas. She's fought twice professionally -- once in Florida, and once in Idaho, both places not having anything close to the stringent testing in Vegas. And here's the kicker -- there's talk that neither commissions (nor opponents) were fully aware of her male to female surgery as she only openly revealed her status as transgender publicly for the first time on the 5th of March, 3 days after her last fight and K.O.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 10, 2013 16:13:45 GMT -5
Also on another note because of Mitrione's comments the UFC have released a new code of conduct for their fighters.... link
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Post by KobashiChop on Apr 10, 2013 18:12:49 GMT -5
I get the point he was making, but he came across as a complete shitbag for it.
Truth is, there is an issue with Fox as far as bone density and structure goes, but Mitrione said some incredibly crappy things about her, and deserves every punishment he gets.
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Post by Piccolo on Apr 10, 2013 20:25:18 GMT -5
Obviously the hateful comments merited the punishment.
As far as whether she should be allowed to fight women, no, I don't think so. Hormone treatments will only reverse so much of a lifetime as a man. I don't think she should be barred, though; they should allow her to compete against men, who developed into adults with the same hormonal milieu that she did, and therefore comparable physical results.
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