SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
|
Post by SOR on May 29, 2013 21:43:15 GMT -5
I was reading the other thread about the top 20 TNA Flops and number 1 were Hulk and Eric. The main writer of that article seemed to rate them number 1 because they simply didn't draw anymore ratings.
The problem is that Hulk and Eric aren't the head writers. Bruce Prichard is. Why aren't the low ratings blamed on him, Or Vince Russo or whoever was the head writer when Hulk and Eric arrived?
I'd like to take a moment to list the pro's and con's of Hulk and Eric here and discuss if they're really as bad as the entire IWC (And others) believe them to be.
Starting with Hulk:
Pro's:
- Entertaining in his General Manager role and has used it to help make stars.
- A recognizable face for wrestling fans young and old. Also a possible draw for the casual wrestling fan who may know of him and wonder what he's up to lately
- Great ambassador for the brand. I like the Howard Stern show and Howard has Hulk in about once a year and Hulk always mentions TNA and where to watch them. To my knowledge Howard has millions of listeners so millions of people know about TNA. I'm sure Hulk makes other appearances regularly also where he can plug TNA.
- Responsible for the crowd draws of late. Some people may disagree but I think Hulk is mostly responsible for the successful road shows TNA has been holding. If Hulk Hogan was appearing in my town I'd buy a ticket guaranteed. If Daniels/Kaz/Joe/Suicide/Crimson/Gunner/Storm were I probably wouldn't care as much. He makes people want to go out and buy tickets
- Has tried to help build people and has been successful. Look at Abyss, Hulk tried to push him for ages and was at least a little bit successful. Garrett failed but the Bully Ray angle worked 100% and it was a hot angle that most of us on here liked.
- International drawing ability. His fame allows TNA to reach new markets. TNA could go to Japan tomorrow and as long as Hulk was at the forefront they'd get a decent crowd. Same for Europe and Oceania regions. I've mentioned it before but Hulk drew close to what WWE Smackdown used to draw here in Sydney Australia. Same goes for some other regions of Australia where he at least was close to WWE numbers.
- Those meet and greets he does? 200-300 people line up to pay a hundred bucks to meet the guy. Do the maths on that. 20,000-30,000 dollars just for Hulk to sign autographs at your fanfests you hold. Not bad at all. Throw in the amount of Hulk Hogan merchandise TNA sells and he's definitely worth having around.
Cons:
- Ratings haven't improved which is a shame but can't really be blamed on him because TNA doesn't constantly market him to a new outside audience and his public appearances are semi regular at best.
- Can't really wrestle anymore which is a shame but TNA has got Hulk at the end of his career and at least got a few matches out of him.
Now as for Eric Bischoff. The guy who cops the most hate when he really hasn't done anything wrong.
Pro's:
- Recognizable face for the brand, not to the point of a Hogan or Sting but still a recognizable dude.
- Contacts. He'd have a million of them from his time in WCW and WWE. TNA really needs a guy like that right now. I'm sure if TNA wanted Goldberg, Jericho, DDP etc etc by tomorrow that Eric could probably get them. He gives them a better chance anyway.
- Phenomenal business man. I don't know what he does behind the scenes for TNA but he's a good sales man. He can sell anyone on the TNA brand if he isn't doing something similar in TNA I'd have him start doing that.
- Has great idea's. Look at the things he did. People always mention nWo but away from nWo he brought the Luchadores to the United States. He really started giving smaller guys TV time before anyone else did. Goldberg, DDP, Jericho, Benoit, Malenko, Mysterio, Guerrero (Both), Saturn all have Eric Bischoff to thank for making them mean something in the wrestling world. Sting/Hogan was huge, Piper/Hogan was huge. Goldberg was huge. He worked deals with Hogan, Savage, Luger, Heenan to get them away from WWE. Who says he can't do the same thing today?
- Is a good authority figure. Not as recognizable as Hulk but he's a good performer and if Hulk ever had to go away for a little bit I'd have Eric do the authority figure role.
Con's:
- Hasn't improved ratings. I blame him a little bit for this because I feel he's probably got more of a foot in the door creatively then Hulk but again, he isn't the head writer he can only do so much.
- Hasn't really used his ideas to push smaller guys like he once did in WCW. Again, Don't know how much input he has but I feel he could should go into bat and make TNA have an awesome TNA X-Division
So, I post this to ask you all. What's so bad about these guys? Why don't they get credit? They do good work from what I can see and I'm sure ratings will improve some day. I don't want to be flamed and although this is a controversial topic I'd really like some serious answers.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on May 29, 2013 21:51:19 GMT -5
It probably has more to do with outsized hype than anything else. Hogan arriving was basically supposed to be the biggest thing to ever happen to TNA (legitimately, not just kayfabe), but it really hasn't moved any numbers around much.
Doesn't mean Hogan's been a 100% failure, but the hype made it appear as if TNA was about to crack the "next level" you hear so much about, but the reality is that nothing can really do that for the wrestling industry now, not Hulk Hogan or anybody else.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 22:04:08 GMT -5
Hogan still has a lot of control writing wise or he would not have changed Bobby Roode from winning the title at Bound for Glory a while back.
They also hog SO much of the show. I get that he is a big name and all. But shouldn't they use his name value to make his appearance special? When the show opens and closes with Hogan its not. Anyone getting as much TV time as he does would be annoying.
And let's not forget him bringing in his friends way back at the beginning. We all wanted to see the Nasty Boys and Bubba the Love Sponge...
Those are three of the reasons in my mind that they get a lot of negative feedback
|
|
mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
|
Post by mizerable on May 29, 2013 22:09:52 GMT -5
I guess for me, it comes down to the fact that neither one of them has anything left to offer me as far as their characters go.
Hogan is pro wrestling to me, the embodiment of the entire sport. For a good part of 2 decades (almost 3, really), he played a major role in entertaining me.
Bischoff was my favorite heel authority figure ever, hell I'll actually say that WWE started the decline of less entertaining when he was removed from Raw. His stuff in WCW was incredible as well. Creatively, I'll always give him credit for revitalizing Hogan with the nWo and knowing how to book a successful invasion, as well as introducing a large portion of fans to cruiserweight wrestling.
However, I guess I'm just at that point where nothing they do anymore really matters. When you've spent 20 years playing the same characters, getting in the same plights and having the same outcomes, it just loses it's appeal.
Wrestling to me has always functioned best as a rotating door, once you've accomplished everything there is to do in your career, there's no reason to just step aside and let someone else go from there. This is the biggest problem with wrestling to me nowadays is this means of building stars and not phasing others out as well as this ADD mentality to all involved in the creative process, which just makes the product (either WWE or TNA) look the same. For all the faults that wrestling had in the past, there were times when guys would go elsewhere, which would allow for others to rise by default and give you something fresh.
Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff aren't fresh. There's no cards they're holding that offer anything more than just a name from long ago. Not trying to sound snarky, because I think both have contributed a ton to the industry.
However, when you come into a company with the aspirations to change the scenary, and turn out to be a total bust, then yes...I would consider that a flop.
|
|
SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
|
Post by SOR on May 29, 2013 22:13:33 GMT -5
Hogan still has a lot of control writing wise or he would not have changed Bobby Roode from winning the title at Bound for Glory a while back. They also hog SO much of the show. I get that he is a big name and all. But shouldn't they use his name value to make his appearance special? When the show opens and closes with Hogan its not. Anyone getting as much TV time as he does would be annoying. And let's not forget him bringing in his friends way back at the beginning. We all wanted to see the Nasty Boys and Bubba the Love Sponge... Those are three of the reasons in my mind that they get a lot of negative feedback The first one I don't even remember but Hogan can just simply make a request to my knowledge he isnt the head writer and even the head writer has to go through Dixie anyway to get it all cleared so if he did change that 2 others must have agreed with him. With the special appearances it's not special on TV but for the live arena's it's special. They basically need to use Hulk to get the people in the building. Maybe 5-10 years down the track when TNA can draw a crowd without a legend Hogan will go back to being a special attraction like he was in WWE but for now, TNA need him. As for the friends. Team 3.D Vs Nasty Boys could of been better I agree but on paper it sounds like a fun street fight or brawl between two of the best brawling teams ever. As for Bubba, He has the hottest radio show in all of Florida and speaks for a living. I think he could of made a fun manager but he wasn't 100% necessary.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Coello on May 29, 2013 22:26:29 GMT -5
Cause that first year was a bust. They tried too much too soon and set the company back due to it. Only when they cleaned up and paced themselves did anything happen.
|
|
|
Post by OGJB is Slender on May 29, 2013 22:37:44 GMT -5
Hulk Hogan:
Pros:
- Recognizable. - Does promote TNA a lot.
Cons:
- People recognize him, but no longer care.
- He does promote TNA, but nobody cares enough to actually watch. More people than you'd think are aware that TNA exists. None of them can be bothered to watch because they just don't care. In that aspect, he fails as a hypeman.
- The first thing he did upon getting a job in TNA was bring in his friends, a bunch of people that either burned out or never got lit up in the first place. He got his friends the Nasty Boys a job and that led to the worst matches of Team 3D's TNA run. He brought in Bubba the Love Sponge and that was nothing but a disaster from jump street. Hall, Nash, & Sean Waltman came back as a result of him and it led to nothing but more bad matches and wasted money. Now, we get a weekly reminder of the stink that is 6 Degrees of Separation from Hulk Hogan in his daughter Brooke, who brings so little to the table that it's laughable. Arguably the worst case of nepotism in wrestling history. Say what you will about Erik Watts or Garett Bischoff, but at least they wrestled. They're terrible, but at least they made the effort. All Brooke does is ham it up and drag down whatever segment she's in. Bully Ray should not be wasting his time on her in this garbage storyline.
- Hulk Hogan seems to think he's more important than he actually is. A house show in his own home town underperformed despite him going into promotion overdrive. TNA had left a footprint internationally and had nothing to do with Hogan. The World X Cup, the supercards in Japan with TNA talent, the massive following in Europe...TNA got all that without Hogan.
- He can't wrestle, yet takes up the majority of the focus of the only weekly TV show TNA has. They made a non-wrestler & his non-wrestler daughter the focal points of the only 2 hours they get a week.
- Undercut Bobby Roode, who could've gone on to be a great face for them.
Eric Bischoff:
Pros:
- Effective heel...That's about it.
Cons:
- His production company sucks and provides frequent botches for TNA.
- Horrific businessman. His chief endeavor burned out and went out of business. He gave so many wrestlers ridiculous contracts that crippled WCW in the end. How is that good business?
- Had one great idea in the nWo and proceeded to run it into the ground not only in WCW, but in TNA as well with Immortal, which was nothing but another nWo ripoff.
Effect on the product since coming in:
- Departure of a lot of crowd favorites and quality wrestlers. - The downgrading of the X Division. - The butchering of the Knockouts Division that coincidentally got higher ratings than any segment Bischoff & Hogan were part of. - Russo is gone, but the boneheaded storyline outcomes are just as stupid as ever. - When they were being brought in, it was hyped as a game-changer that would change the face of pro wrestling forever. What happened was that the product took a nosedive and left fans longing for the era before they got here. They came in and spun their wheels for a while and are now treading water. The sooner they're gone from TNA, the happier their core audience will be.
|
|
|
Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on May 29, 2013 22:42:18 GMT -5
I'm going to break down SOR post. And give my thought on them.
Ok what stars did me make by being a GM? When most of the time he spent with Sting. Feuding with Bully Ray (Who got over on his own.)Hogan can be entertaining yes but fan are not watching TNA to see Hogan talk. Fans are not watching TNA knowing he not wrestling. If they where then TNA would have a higher rating then ever. Which they don't.
Once a year? What about all the other shows that he DOESN'T plug TNA. Half the time he doesn't do that. So nope he not great.
Really? You feel that fans are buying tickets for a wrestling show to see Hogan NOT wrestle? I'm sure he not responsible for that. Because the first TNA show during his era in St. Louis was a PPV Lockdown. The same event they had in St. Louis three years before that. The crowd was smaller. You can't tell me Hogan is drawing and not guys like Angle and Sting who are also big time players who can wrestle. Better yet what about Jeff Hardy who as a known Cult following and has just as much merchandise out there then Hogan does. Better yet he can wrestle and have a good match.
TNA tried to push Abyss since day one. Until two weeks ago Abyss wasn't here for a year. Several times Abyss looked like a cartoon with the magic ring. I wouldn't give Hogan any credit for Abyss when Abyss was already a World Champion before Hogan was here. There was never time a time before Hogan where Abyss wasn't a major part of the show. The guy feuded with Sting before Hogan came along.
TNA been doing that all the time. The UK they always where higher rated then WWE for years. Before Hogan and Bischoff. I don't give him credit for that success when a year before he signed with TNA he and Flair did a bunch of shows in the same marke in Australia and it did ok then got worst by the show.
They have the same with Jeff Hardy. Hardy is mega popular and that is why after all the screw up the man has had. The WWE and TNA still push him. Sure it's find he came draw in a few grand. But he not the only big star. Does he help in that department yes.
Cons:
So you saying he not drawing. If he was such a good ambassador he would have made some kind of improvement because that is why TNA brought him and Eric in.
Two matches is all they got. This is why he not the big draw you said earlier he was because fans are not buying a ticket to see him cut promos all day.
His son says hello. You don't think he had something to do with his not ready son being pushed on TV. While 1000s of way better wrestlers in the indies are unsigned?
Pro's:
Nobody cares about what Eric is doing? Yeah fans knows who he is but there not watching for him. Being he hasn't been on TV for close to a year now says something.
Yeah Jericho the guy in the WWE right? The guy who also left WCW because he wasn't going anywhere. Goldberg would be there now if that was the case because TNA is all about star power in the pass. DDP already had a TNA run in 05. He doesn't wrestle anymore so I doubt he come. Who out there he can connect with that would really be worst the money to bring in?
I wouldn't call a guy who lost his job in WCW phenomenal or only had three years of success in a ten year old company.
Goldberg and DDP do but the rest where done by ECW. Without ECW Eric wouldn't have an idea who these guys where. Notice where all of those guys where at before WCW. All on the ECW cards. I can agree with you on the rest. The payoff of those where not great.
He better then Hogan in that role. Because Eric done that role in WCW and WWE also. Hogan has not.
Con's:
Well he and Hogan where brought in with being this whole major change for TNA. Since the ratings have not gone up. I say he failing at his job.
What small guys he did push in WCW? Jericho became a Main Eventer in WWE. He was nothing but a low carder in WCW. Who are you talking about. If he was so good with Pushing then explain Austin, HHH, and Foley who he fired and saw nothing in them.
Bottom line they get the hate because they where brought in to be the monster change. We haven't seen real proof of that at all. Nothing TNA as done today they couldn't have done with out them.
|
|
|
Post by gnr123 on May 29, 2013 23:22:52 GMT -5
Who's the main antagonist in the Aces and Eight's storyline? Hulk Hogan. That should tell you why people can't stand Hogan anymore. He's not relevant anymore, he hasn't done much at all for TNA number's-wise. The only thing he's done is sign his overweight friend's and his daughter who can't act. Who has he put over? Who has he built up? He's been there for 3 years and he's been involved in two main event storyline's involving stables. The guy can't work a match anymore, yet he's fighting off Bully Ray and Aces and Eights. Why? Because of his ego.
Trust me, it wouldn't shock me if Bound For Glory ends with Hulk Hogan winning the TNA Championship. Remember the interview where he said he wanted to be TNA Champion? Well, when has he lied before? He said Abyss was basically "TNA's John Cena" in a radio interview, than he get's a big push with the magic ring. Than, he say's Bobby Roode isn't ready and Roode loses after the Bound for Glory series. Trust me, Hogan's wgo will make him want to win the TNA Champion. And Dixie Carter won't doing anything to stop him. Hell, she's going around comparing Hogan to Elvis Presley and Michael Jordan. She's as delusional as he is.
Sure, Bischoff did have success with the Monday Night War's. But, where's WCW now? The only positive is Bischoff isn't on television anymore, he knows his time is over as on screen character.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,295
|
Post by The Ichi on May 29, 2013 23:34:43 GMT -5
Hogan deserves some props as he does try things. Not always succesful things, but his heart seems in the right place (sometimes, anyway). Plus, he'll always be a draw for the casual fan like you said. He's pretty much similar to HHH in that he's good for the company behind the scenes and as a spokesperson, but he needs to stop hogging up screentime onscreen.
I can't think of a single positive thing Eric has done for TNA. He's not an interesting onscreen character anymore and judging by his Twitter, he seems to have nothing but legitimate scorn for the TNA fanbase. I'll never forget 2011 where he seemed to tweet every day about what sheep the fans are. A complete clownshoes.
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjames on May 30, 2013 1:14:38 GMT -5
Because they are being paid big time money and haven't done jack squat that the people in TNA before and currently, couldn't have done. In addition,
1. Nepotism. 2. Undermined and crippled the Knockout's division. 3. They have held or stopped pushes and angles that could have become big. 4. Bubba the Love Sponge. 5. Self-Promotion. 6. Wasted chances. 7. Stupid and incomplete storylines. 8. Nepotism.
|
|
|
Post by celticjobber on May 30, 2013 1:22:56 GMT -5
Eric Bischoff is the executive producer of TNA. He's got a huge say in their creative direction.
The Aces & 8's storyline has Bischoff's fingerprints all over it.
|
|
|
Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on May 30, 2013 2:15:36 GMT -5
Quite simply both Hogan and Bischoff coming in were supposed to bring the same legitimacy and success into TNA that they brought to WCW during the mid 90s.
Problem is they haven't.
|
|
Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,501
|
Post by Ben Wyatt on May 30, 2013 6:53:31 GMT -5
Quite simply both Hogan and Bischoff coming in were supposed to bring the same legitimacy and success into TNA that they brought to WCW during the mid 90s. Problem is they haven't. This. The ratings are about the same, and the show quality yo-yo's from poor to great. What is there to give credit for?
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on May 30, 2013 8:32:12 GMT -5
I DO give the Hogan regime credit for the following:
-They made the conscious choice to make the World Title the true focus of the show, and the company's biggest prize. This hurt the other belts to varying degrees, but given that TNA only has 80 minutes of TV a week, they had to choose a direction one way or the other, so I'm glad they didn't halfway things.
-By the same token, the X-Division changes are fine by me, because for too long the whole idea of being champion of the X-Division was very nebulous. What WAS the X-Division, who could compete in it, what did its belt make you champion of? By adding stipulations to it it's become something separate and distinct, so it has more of an identity. May not be a perfect solution, but the thought process isn't a bad one.
-Working to get Russo removed. Had to be done.
-Ensuring that heels are truly loathsome. Yes, most of us still love Bad Influence and Roode/Aries, but they're pretty vile characters. WWE too often makes their heels correct all the time and makes them sympathetic, and then wonders why the "smart crowd" tends to cheer them.
-Plot consistency: you don't have to like it, but Aces and Eights has clearly had a beginning, middle, and is building toward an end. Even AJ's progression has been long, drawn out, but logical.
Now, the catch? The execution hasn't always been good, and some of their shows have been downright painful to sit through over the past couple of months. However, I do give them credit for applying a consistent thought process here, because it at least provides a better framework to build a better show off of.
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on May 30, 2013 8:50:59 GMT -5
while some stuff has improved, a lot of what they did in 2010 left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths
|
|
Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
Own Nothing, Be Happy
Posts: 6,304
|
Post by Sam Punk on May 30, 2013 10:37:15 GMT -5
I wonder how many of howard's listeners tune in expecting to see "tna" wrestling and end up disappointed.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,062
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 30, 2013 14:21:20 GMT -5
Just going back, I want to know on what piece of paper the Nasty Boys v Team 3D in 2010 looked a good idea? I suspect it's the kind you put on your tongue to give you an.... interesting few hours. Even in their prime 20 years previously the Nastys were wastes of space and Team 3D was stale as heck.
|
|
SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
|
Post by SOR on May 30, 2013 19:16:24 GMT -5
Just going back, I want to know on what piece of paper the Nasty Boys v Team 3D in 2010 looked a good idea? I suspect it's the kind you put on your tongue to give you an.... interesting few hours. Even in their prime 20 years previously the Nastys were wastes of space and Team 3D was stale as heck. Well they're the two best brawlers in terms of tag teams possibly ever. I don't remember their matches but I'm sure in 2010 they could of had a nice hardcore match at least. Get the Dudleyz over a little more at the expense of the Nastys. Sure, It wasn't Flair/Steamboat but not everything has to be.
|
|
Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 62,015
|
Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on May 30, 2013 19:28:47 GMT -5
First Eric didn't create the NWO he took the idea from another promotion and brought it to his company, the Luchadors he got the idea again from ECW. Hogan tends to make himself the focal point of all major angles when other stars could be there or should be there. Eric basically took one of his own shows Devil's Ride which premiered in 2012 and the whole point of the show is the inside look at a biker club, look what pops up later in TNA a bunch of biker's that actually don't really ride bikes instead they drink and fight.
|
|