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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Sept 22, 2013 0:40:52 GMT -5
Lawler's story is bullshit, and I think he said the same thing in his book. It was well-known that Savage had left for WCW, long before he debuted on Nitro. And Savage gave notice and seemed to have left on good enough terms that Vince gave him a rare on-air "goodbye" on RAW the first night Savage was gone from commentary. I think he was even on WCW Saturday Night and a PPV just before being on Nitro, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure it was all covered extensively in the Wrestling Observer newsletter well before his WCW debut. Savage did debut in WCW Saturday Night a little over a month after his final WWF TV appearance aired. youtu.be/L29wT3-cmY0 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2013 0:42:33 GMT -5
I hate to say that I subscribe to the Stephanie McMahon theory, and I find it hard to believe but I feel like it has to be something outside of the traditional category. Hall and Nash left the company and left them so destitute they felt they had to embarrass themselves with an attempt to literally remake them with other guys. Hulk Hogan left and spearheaded an angle that nearly killed WWE. Bret Hart left by giving Vince a black eye, Ultimate Warrior (though I don't really believe this story word for word) held Vince McMahon up for more money the night of Summerslam. Macho Man pulling a sponsor from WWE, or simply leaving for other opportunities just falls in line with the rest of the guys that left and had since been forgiven. I don't know what Randy Savage could have done that got him blackballed from WWE for so long. It would just sound absurd if someone tabled the idea of a Macho Man appearance, to be shot down by Vince McMahon grumbling about some Slim Jim deal in the early 90s.
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Sept 22, 2013 0:45:00 GMT -5
Lawler's story is bullshit, and I think he said the same thing in his book. It was well-known that Savage had left for WCW, long before he debuted on Nitro. And Savage gave notice and seemed to have left on good enough terms that Vince gave him a rare on-air "goodbye" on RAW the first night Savage was gone from commentary. I think he was even on WCW Saturday Night and a PPV just before being on Nitro, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure it was all covered extensively in the Wrestling Observer newsletter well before his WCW debut. Savage did debut in WCW Saturday Night a little over a month after his final WWF TV appearance aired. youtu.be/L29wT3-cmY0Actually, hell yeah! I remember Savage debuting on WCW Saturday Night. There's no way Vince first learned of it by watching Nitro. There wasn't even a Nitro yet! Yeah, Lawler's story is complete bullshit. Savage debuted there in 1994. The first Nitro was in 1995. |
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Chip
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Post by Chip on Sept 22, 2013 0:56:59 GMT -5
I hate to say that I subscribe to the Stephanie McMahon theory, and I find it hard to believe but I feel like it has to be something outside of the traditional category. Hall and Nash left the company and left them so destitute they felt they had to embarrass themselves with an attempt to literally remake them with other guys. Hulk Hogan left and spearheaded an angle that nearly killed WWE. Bret Hart left by giving Vince a black eye, Ultimate Warrior (though I don't really believe this story word for word) held Vince McMahon up for more money the night of Summerslam. Macho Man pulling a sponsor from WWE, or simply leaving for other opportunities just falls in line with the rest of the guys that left and had since been forgiven. I don't know what Randy Savage could have done that got him blackballed from WWE for so long. It would just sound absurd if someone tabled the idea of a Macho Man appearance, to be shot down by Vince McMahon grumbling about some Slim Jim deal in the early 90s. Whilst you bring up some good points, it's Vince. Everything we hear about the man, whether true or not does not conjure up the idea that he's a rational or forgiving person. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 22, 2013 1:28:32 GMT -5
I wish I could find the part of that Unreal Story of Professional Wrestling documentary that actually featured McMahon talking about Savage departing.
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Post by Throwback on Sept 22, 2013 8:42:30 GMT -5
Savage did debut in WCW Saturday Night a little over a month after his final WWF TV appearance aired. youtu.be/L29wT3-cmY0Actually, hell yeah! I remember Savage debuting on WCW Saturday Night. There's no way Vince first learned of it by watching Nitro. There wasn't even a Nitro yet! Yeah, Lawler's story is complete bullshit. Savage debuted there in 1994. The first Nitro was in 1995. Not saying you're wrong. But nobody besides you said anything about Nitro. |
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Tony Schiavontay
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Sept 22, 2013 9:36:44 GMT -5
Jerry Lawler's story explains everything, except for the fact that Lawler did commentary for Wrestlemania X, a show that Randy Savage wrestled on months before he left.
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Sept 22, 2013 9:56:43 GMT -5
Actually, hell yeah! I remember Savage debuting on WCW Saturday Night. There's no way Vince first learned of it by watching Nitro. There wasn't even a Nitro yet! Yeah, Lawler's story is complete bullshit. Savage debuted there in 1994. The first Nitro was in 1995. Not saying you're wrong. But nobody besides you said anything about Nitro. Lawler said on Steve Austin's podcast, that Vince learned that Savage left WWF when Vince saw him on Nitro. Lawler said Vince had expected Savage to announce Raw that night and then had to ask Lawler to do it on the fly. There is no way this is true since Savage debuted in WCW several months before Nitro debuted. |
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Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 22, 2013 10:49:30 GMT -5
On the Slim Jim Deal: Savage didn't take it with him. It was a contract with the WWF. In fact, before Savage, Warrior did the ads and briefly after he left, Diesel was in the ads. Nash told a story on a shoot interview how after doing a few of the ads, he told one of the producers that he thought the ads sucked with him in it and they would be better off if they used Savage again. They agreed and took the deal to Savage. Nash wasn't sure if Vince ever knew that though.
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Post by molson5 on Sept 22, 2013 10:57:12 GMT -5
I hate to say that I subscribe to the Stephanie McMahon theory, and I find it hard to believe but I feel like it has to be something outside of the traditional category. Hall and Nash left the company and left them so destitute they felt they had to embarrass themselves with an attempt to literally remake them with other guys. Hulk Hogan left and spearheaded an angle that nearly killed WWE. Bret Hart left by giving Vince a black eye, Ultimate Warrior (though I don't really believe this story word for word) held Vince McMahon up for more money the night of Summerslam. Macho Man pulling a sponsor from WWE, or simply leaving for other opportunities just falls in line with the rest of the guys that left and had since been forgiven. I don't know what Randy Savage could have done that got him blackballed from WWE for so long. It would just sound absurd if someone tabled the idea of a Macho Man appearance, to be shot down by Vince McMahon grumbling about some Slim Jim deal in the early 90s. That's a good argument that there's heat based on something "outside of the traditional category", but it none of it points to the Stephanie theory specifically. That's the logic leap that I don't think can really be made, "well, it must be an 'unusual' kind of heat, therefore, Savage must have banged the boss's teenage daughter." That doesn't really follow. There's a million other hypothetical "unusual"-type heats we could dream up. |
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Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 22, 2013 11:02:16 GMT -5
I suspect Vince was hurt Savage left but Savage's high fee demand prevented a return
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Sept 22, 2013 11:09:04 GMT -5
There's also rumors that Vince was mad because they lost the Slim Jim endorsement to WCW when Savage left. Especially considering the money troubles they had in the mid-90s, that would have been a big hurt to the company. The thing is that rumor started here on these boards as a fan theory and never appeared anywhere before or has been repeated by a single guy inside the business at the time. Sure it makes the most sense and would put everything into perspective but wrestling doesn't always make sense and has some pretty twisted perspectives. I personally think it more has to do with the Steph theory. Don't get me wrong I don't believe it happened. However,I have heard a lot of the wrestlers reference that one. Now, if gossip like that leaked to us on the outside I am sure Vince heard something. So true or not all of his boys are talking behind his back about his baby girl and one of his good friends. That could make any man irrational and knowing both men's tempers that could get ugly quick. Hogan took a lot more money than Savage and Vince had no grudge like that. |
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Post by molson5 on Sept 22, 2013 11:24:39 GMT -5
I suspect Vince was hurt Savage left but Savage's high fee demand prevented a return That's the most plausible theory to me. The WWF didn't see him as a regular wrestler by 1994. He went on to make main event money until 2000. They must have been light years apart on his value. And it wasn't like Savage was desperate to wrestle from 2000 on. Other than the TNA thing, which was a disaster, and in the course of which Savage was a massive headache, he didn't make appearances anywhere, it wasn't just the WWE. |
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Sept 22, 2013 16:32:28 GMT -5
Not saying you're wrong. But nobody besides you said anything about Nitro. Lawler said on Steve Austin's podcast, that Vince learned that Savage left WWF when Vince saw him on Nitro. Lawler said Vince had expected Savage to announce Raw that night and then had to ask Lawler to do it on the fly. There is no way this is true since Savage debuted in WCW several months before Nitro debuted. Maybe Lawler just said the wrong show name... It's not like Jerry worked for WCW, and it was almost 20 years ago. I'm positive that things I thought happened on Superstars could've happened on Challenge, or All American Wrestling. |
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Sept 22, 2013 16:35:57 GMT -5
Lawler said on Steve Austin's podcast, that Vince learned that Savage left WWF when Vince saw him on Nitro. Lawler said Vince had expected Savage to announce Raw that night and then had to ask Lawler to do it on the fly. There is no way this is true since Savage debuted in WCW several months before Nitro debuted. Maybe Lawler just said the wrong show name... It's not like Jerry worked for WCW, and it was almost 20 years ago. I'm positive that things I thought happened on Superstars could've happened on Challenge, or All American Wrestling. Well, Jerry basically said (I'm paraphrasing): Remember how Nitro aired one hour before Raw? Well, not long before Raw, Vince McMahon tells someone to go get Randy. Well, Bruce Pritchard or Pat Patterson told Vince to come look at this monitor. And it was Randy on Nitro! Then Vince came to me and asked if I could work color commentary for Raw. It was supposed to just be for that night. 20 years later and I'm still there. -Yeah, I paraphrased the hell out of Jerry's words, but that's basically what he said. |
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Post by Blindkarevik on Sept 22, 2013 16:45:32 GMT -5
This is pure speculation on my part, but it's just my take and opinion on this theory.
It has always seemed like Vince has liked to have a number one and number two guy. For years, his number one guy was Hogan and his number two was Savage. Even when Warrior was challenging Hogan and won the title, it seemed like it was what the fans wanted, but Savage was always meant to be the main guy behind Hogan... even as a heel. So, when Hogan left... Savage was immediately there to replace him as the top guy. However, at that point.. Bret Hart was beginning to build momentum to become Vince's number two guy.
So everything seemed fine to Vince. However, reports have said Savage didn't think he was done in the ring (based on his work in WCW, he was right.. had a LOT left to give)... but as Vince was looking towards Bret Hart and Lex Luger... Savage basically became the "in case of emergency, break glass" guy that Triple H is now. However, with Bret being built up, Luger getting a ton of momentum, Undertaker waiting in the wings whenever needed, Shawn Michaels getting better and better, the clique forming, Vince looking towards Diesel as his next big star while grooming Shawn for a permanent main event spot and to become his "number two in the wings." Savage got lost in the shuffle. Vince figured he could just keep Savage on commentary, and if something rose up where it would make sense for Savage to return to the ring... he could use him.
In that, I could see Savage taking that as a slap in the face. From Vince's viewpoint, he's saying, "We have a guaranteed draw we can pull out at any time, make money, and gain hype for what we need because he's that good." Savage, being notoriously insecure, could hear, "You're washed up, you're done. Make way for the new guys." Then, look at other options where he can prove he still had what it took. WCW was interested, said all the right things Savage wanted to hear and gave notice.
Vince thinks, "What happened? I treated you well, I basically gave you legend status, you have an easy job, on-air all the time, why would you leave?" Not understanding Savage's side, he looked at it as betrayal. Especially when WCW started pulling ahead... because while they had Hogan, Beefcake, Bossman, Quake, Duggan, etc,.... all those were people Vince had figured he had done with all he could and no longer needed them. Savage, he felt he needed still.... yet WCW was able to lure him away.
I really believe if Bret Hart had left the WWF for WCW without the Screwjob... he would've suffered a similar fate. The whole Savage/Steph thing... no idea how it started. But I do think it's one of those things that started from a random rumor and blew up to be accepted as fact. Just like the multiple Ultimate Warriors.
Again, just my opinion on the whole thing.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 22, 2013 17:02:03 GMT -5
From what I understand, and I think Lanny Poffo brought this up, but Savage felt he could do more in wrestling and could go much longer then Vince envisioned, It's sad that Savage ended up dying before Vince and him could make amends. It seems that they both felt betrayed by each other, with Savage feeling Vince lost faith in him as a performer and was pushing him to the side, and Savage for picking up and leaving for WCW, at least on somewhat short notice.
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Post by DASH 243✅ on Sept 22, 2013 17:29:57 GMT -5
they didn't lose the slim jim deal, after savage lest Bam Bam was the spokesman
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Sept 22, 2013 17:31:53 GMT -5
Personally I just think Vince felt more personally hurt and betrayed by Savage than any of the other people that jumped because they were close friends and for other reasons that have been presented here, also add on that there was heat on Savage's end as well and it wasn't just Vince hating him.
But regarding the Stephanie one question I had was what age she would have been when Savage left the WWF. In previous threads about this I swore people were shouting "she was like 12!! So no way!". But I just did the math and she would have been around 18 when Savage left the WWF. That to me makes the Stephanie scenario at least possible. It would suck if that was ever confirmed as the real truth (and I think Stephanie is the only person who can really do that at this point and I doubt she would except like... on her death bed or something) because it would make me think a whole hell of a lot less of Savage depending on how young she was when they started up. I mean my enjoyment of him would likely remain the same but it does suck when you learn terrible things about famous people you like a lot. Its hard to see a scenario where a guy in his forties getting it on with his best friend's underage isn't creepy as hell (she must have been underage when they started, but even if they started when she was 18 it'd be creepy). Like even if she was the one initiating it it would be skeevy but thats a different discussion I guess.
Luckily I'm leaning towards it not being true, though the rumors of it might have made the heat on Vince's side worse because maybe he believed them or even just wasn't sure if he believed them or not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2013 17:51:10 GMT -5
I think that what happened in 1996 may have permanently soured Vince on bringing Randy back. His contract expires, begins to negotiate with Vince and Vince badly wants him back, but Randy jumps back to WCW at the last minute. I think Savage was supposed to be the mystery opponent in the Yoko/Vader eight man match, but they had to bring Snuka in at the last minute. Savage returning as MSG would have been a great moment. I think he did the same thing in 1998, meaning we missed out on Crazy Randy Savage vs Austin.
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