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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 18, 2013 18:50:22 GMT -5
At a pinch I could see Bret staying with WWF therefore not having his career ended by Goldberg, and maybe Owen never becoming the Blue Blazer. Can you clarify the rest? Kind of simply, actually: given the atmosphere at WCW, the Radicalz, still itching to leave, would have had both Bret and Owen getting the locker room behind getting them over to WWE, with possibly better terms than were given. With Benoit and Guerrero in WWF/E with both Bret and Owen, it is possible that interventions might have taken place to keep Guerrero away from the bottle and to keep Benoit from beating his own head in during every. blessed. match. That's pretty damn thin.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 18, 2013 18:58:42 GMT -5
I know Bret came across like he could make the blind see and heal the lepers in his autobiography, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.
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wildojinx
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Post by wildojinx on Dec 18, 2013 19:01:00 GMT -5
Not to mention that with Bret still in the company, that means no Austin vs Vince feud that helped the attitude era get off the ground, therefore the Radicalz would have no reason to leave (a lot of the reasons for the departure of chris, dean, eddie, and perry was due to Kevin Sullivan taking over for Russo, who was the replacement for bischoff) since WCW would still be number one.
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Dec 18, 2013 19:03:04 GMT -5
You people make bigger leaps than a leaping man leaping on his best day.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 18, 2013 19:11:54 GMT -5
You people make bigger leaps than a leaping man leaping on his best day. This man is jealous
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 18, 2013 19:11:56 GMT -5
Kind of simply, actually: given the atmosphere at WCW, the Radicalz, still itching to leave, would have had both Bret and Owen getting the locker room behind getting them over to WWE, with possibly better terms than were given. With Benoit and Guerrero in WWF/E with both Bret and Owen, it is possible that interventions might have taken place to keep Guerrero away from the bottle and to keep Benoit from beating his own head in during every. blessed. match. That's pretty damn thin. Perhaps. But then again, Bret had pushed a couple times for Chris Benoit to get tryouts with the WWF - as recently as 1994. If it meant coming in as a package deal with Guerrero, Saturn and Malenko, Benoit would have still been pushed by the WWF locker room on Bret's say-so. Bret thought almost as well of Chris as he did of Owen; Chris would have done anything asked of him and, from Bret, that would have been what was in his best interests as well as for business. That Owen and Chris were friends and had worked together previously would have just sweetened the pot. The others would have only built it up higher. It is a thin soup, yes; but it is a smooth one and it would have done some serious damage had Vince done what was truly best for business long-term.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 19:38:23 GMT -5
We're really asking a lot from our wrestlers if we expect them to be outstanding citizens all the time. As far as I can tell the big arguments towards Shawn being a bad person is his drug use and playing backstage politics. Well people can get over addiction (which Shawn seemingly has), and I don't see how we can really get worked up about wrestling politics.
If you go through my past and pick out my worst moments, I'm sure I'd come off as a lot worse of a person than someone who used underhanded tactics and threw weight around to advance his career.
But this thread gave us arguably the worst argument/logic I've seen in quite some time, and for that we thank you.
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mizerable
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Post by mizerable on Dec 18, 2013 19:52:56 GMT -5
Perhaps. But then again, Bret had pushed a couple times for Chris Benoit to get tryouts with the WWF - as recently as 1994. If it meant coming in as a package deal with Guerrero, Saturn and Malenko, Benoit would have still been pushed by the WWF locker room on Bret's say-so. Bret thought almost as well of Chris as he did of Owen; Chris would have done anything asked of him and, from Bret, that would have been what was in his best interests as well as for business. That Owen and Chris were friends and had worked together previously would have just sweetened the pot. The others would have only built it up higher. It is a thin soup, yes; but it is a smooth one and it would have done some serious damage had Vince done what was truly best for business long-term. First off, the reason that Benoit and company were even brought in to WWF is because they were allowed to go, since I believe all were still under contract to WCW, before Sullivan worked a deal where they would be able to opt out. I highly doubt that any of them would have jumped in 1997, especially Saturn who had just been signed. Malenko was also getting a great push, and Benoit was always a featured talent. The reason the jumped was a mix of politics, as well as problems that Benoit created himself. And Benoit faced the same kind of problems as he did in WCW, and would have if Bret was or was not there. But let's just play along with the idea that they jumped in 1997, and Bret stayed in WWF. What does that prove? What kind of "smooth soup" is that? Oh, they'd do "good business"? On the basis of what? Where is your criteria, outside of wishful thinking?
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 18, 2013 19:57:31 GMT -5
Not to mention that with Bret still in the company, that means no Austin vs Vince feud that helped the attitude era get off the ground, therefore the Radicalz would have no reason to leave (a lot of the reasons for the departure of chris, dean, eddie, and perry was due to Kevin Sullivan taking over for Russo, who was the replacement for bischoff) since WCW would still be number one. The Attitude Era began, if we really want to start the timeline properly, at King of the Ring 1996 with Austin uttering "Austin 3:16 says I just whupped your ass!" From that point until Survivor Series '97, Austin was clearly one to watch and, after WrestleMania XIII, he was the new face of the WWF. McMahon did not need, really, either Michaels or Hart to play along by that point.... But he needed a foil for this new Face of the WWF. I think Vince chose to keep Shawn because he knew that the crowd would hate him so much that Austin would be a shoo-in as a new "anti-hero" model for WWF's superstars, in spite of the long-term benefits of keeping Hart around. Hart was still too well-loved at that point, especially overseas, and too respected in the locker room. While Mr. McMahon could have emerged as having his own ideas about the "Face of the Company" (i.e. not Austin), he had to choose between two heels at that point, one of which was more universally reviled than the other. Hart would have played the Corporate champion rather better, I think, and gathered the entourage to protect him and to make Austin look more and more like the underdog. Michaels came across as too chaotic and partying to work as the FotC. And yet, Vince went with Michaels. Why?
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 18, 2013 20:14:25 GMT -5
But let's just play along with the idea that they jumped in 1997, and Bret stayed in WWF. What does that prove? What kind of "smooth soup" is that? Oh, they'd do "good business"? On the basis of what? Where is your criteria, outside of wishful thinking? Let's not play along with the presumption that they jumped to WWF prior to Bret's departure, since that was never my intention to presume. Let's talk about May 24, 1999 - Bret in WWF means a Blue Blazer is nowhere near the roof of the Kemper Arena in Kansas City. A living Blue Blazer continues through the end of 1999 alongside a non-concussed Bret Hart in WWF. Add Chris Jericho to the mix and that's three voices pushing for Vince to sign the Radicalz. Bret would still have enough of a voice to convince McMahon of the booking potential combined in seven of wrestling's most talented and skilled wrestlers. It might have happened earlier, and with Chris's issues (such as may have existed then), he has at least additional supports in place. Guerrero and the others would also potentially benefit from the increased scrutiny and support.
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Post by Wolfman Rose on Dec 18, 2013 21:09:02 GMT -5
I... I think I'm more impressed with this brand of Insane Troll Logic than anything. But horribly confused.
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Juice
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Post by Juice on Dec 18, 2013 21:54:27 GMT -5
These guys all seem horribly jealous. Helms especially. And other than Bam Bam I have heard mostly negative things about the people who were shooting. Cornette never ahs anything nice to say, Honkey Tonk is universally considered to be an asshole as is Hogan. Harris(?)Helms, and Adam Bomb all seemed just jealous of Shawn.
It's amusing to see so many people accuse Vince of being gay for him.
PLus this was only a few people. I was expecting this huge amount of people shooting. and Bam Bam was mentioning click shit not HBK only.
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Lancers
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Post by Lancers on Dec 18, 2013 22:02:02 GMT -5
I know Bret came across like he could make the blind see and heal the lepers in his autobiography, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 18, 2013 23:13:14 GMT -5
Here's what I really don't get - why would Vince keep Shawn in the position Shawn enjoyed for so long, at the expense (because revenues dropped under Shawn as champion, but were higher under Bret's reign in 1996? Why would he keep someone who holds the record for title forfeitures due to injuries or other absences? Who was known for getting into trouble on the road? What did Shawn have, quite simply, to make Vince act so counter to business sense and logic?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 23:33:05 GMT -5
If Bret Hart of all people managed to forgive him and hang out today, then I'd imagine HBK has changed to a way better man.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Dec 18, 2013 23:55:12 GMT -5
If Bret Hart of all people managed to forgive him and hang out today, then I'd imagine HBK has changed to a way better man. Meh, Bret just needed someone else to be mad at.
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Dec 19, 2013 1:47:59 GMT -5
I think it really says something that Shane Helms would be so vocal about Shawn Michaels. I say this because Shane Helms seems so well-liked by many of 'the boys' from Edge to Foley to Austin. I would imagine The Rock liked him too since he did that mini-program with Helms when Rock had plenty of clout to nix the program if he didn't want to do it. From Helms interviews, it sounds like Vince liked him as well.
I can understand why Tatanka, Bam Bam Bigelow, Shane Douglas, and Adam Bomb would not like him since Shawn and his friends talked to management about them and supposedly hurt their WWE careers. I think Hulk Hogan would be justified in not liking Shawn after Shawn was so unprofessional in their match and the next night on Raw.
I can understand why Cornette would have strong feelings about Shawn Michaels since Cornette was part of creative during the heyday of Shawn Michaels's 1990s run.
Again, Helms is different. He was around Shawn during the time when he was supposed to be a changed man.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Dec 19, 2013 2:03:28 GMT -5
Here's what I really don't get - why would Vince keep Shawn in the position Shawn enjoyed for so long, at the expense (because revenues dropped under Shawn as champion, but were higher under Bret's reign in 1996? Why would he keep someone who holds the record for title forfeitures due to injuries or other absences? Who was known for getting into trouble on the road? What did Shawn have, quite simply, to make Vince act so counter to business sense and logic? The dong of a lifetime and an ass that wouldn't quit.
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wildojinx
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Post by wildojinx on Dec 19, 2013 7:48:41 GMT -5
Bret as "corporate champ" would simply mean we'd get ANOTHER year of Bret/Austin, only with Austin as champion. The fans may have tired of that quick (there were already people sick of the nwo angle in 1997). Not to mention that maybe the harts would be so offended by the sleaze of the attitude era that they leave before jericho and the radicalz show up. Also, where would DX, Rock, and Foley fit in that scenario?
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Apr 20, 2014 13:17:07 GMT -5
Bret as "corporate champ" would simply mean we'd get ANOTHER year of Bret/Austin, only with Austin as champion. The fans may have tired of that quick (there were already people sick of the nwo angle in 1997). Not to mention that maybe the harts would be so offended by the sleaze of the attitude era that they leave before jericho and the radicalz show up. Also, where would DX, Rock, and Foley fit in that scenario? I'm torn between thinking if Austin/Bret feuding longer would be a good or bad idea. Hart/Austin definitely seemed like it had more momentum to keep going and when Austin was shrugged off of Bret to feud with Owen it just felt like Austin had some of the wind taken out of his sails (and then the who neck breaking thing happenend). On the other hand you bring up a convincing point with the NWO comparison.
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