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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Dec 31, 2013 18:06:46 GMT -5
So... were "smart" fans able to wrap their heads around Mick Foley back in the Attitude Era, or did he inspire a similar constant barrage of blithering whining that management was trying to bury him and destroy his momentum because they resented him getting over?
What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that the reason there isn't going to be a big "star-making" angle for Bryan coming up isn't that he's getting held down and denied it, it's because he's already a star. This is his schtick, being the plucky underdog who fights the good fight and gets beaten up and then people hate the heels who took him down. His occasional moments of genuine victory will always be quickly followed by more grief and punishment from villains. That isn't a burial, that's his character, and it's a valuable character to have in a pro wrestling promotion.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 31, 2013 18:14:31 GMT -5
So... were "smart" fans able to wrap their heads around Mick Foley back in the Attitude Era, or did he inspire a similar constant barrage of blithering whining that management was trying to bury him and destroy his momentum because they resented him getting over? What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that the reason there isn't going to be a big "star-making" angle for Bryan coming up isn't that he's getting held down and denied it, it's because he's already a star. This is his schtick, being the plucky underdog who fights the good fight and gets beaten up and then people hate the heels who took him down. His occasional moments of genuine victory will always be quickly followed by more grief and punishment from villains. That isn't a burial, that's his character, and it's a valuable character to have in a pro wrestling promotion. Foley was a plucky underdog because he was basically an overweight, oddball, freak desperate for acceptance and approval and put his body on the line in an extreme way to do it. Bryan is capable of being more than the sad sack punching bag who wins a few battles but eventually loses the war. He's been shoehorned into the weirdo Mick Foley role even though he's more suited for the fighting champion Bret Hart role. Take away the beard and he's a typical clean cut babyface, not some Mankind-esque oddity
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Dec 31, 2013 18:14:48 GMT -5
So... were "smart" fans able to wrap their heads around Mick Foley back in the Attitude Era, or did he inspire a similar constant barrage of blithering whining that management was trying to bury him and destroy his momentum because they resented him getting over? What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that the reason there isn't going to be a big "star-making" angle for Bryan coming up isn't that he's getting held down and denied it, it's because he's already a star. This is his schtick, being the plucky underdog who fights the good fight and gets beaten up and then people hate the heels who took him down. His occasional moments of genuine victory will always be quickly followed by more grief and punishment from villains. That isn't a burial, that's his character, and it's a valuable character to have in a pro wrestling promotion. Exactly. People hated Orton and the Authority's guts for their antics against Bryan, and now people are despising the Wyatts for their antics against DB. It makes their downfalls (for the Authority, it's yet to come, since they are the bigger, main storyline) all the more satisfying.
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Post by molson5 on Dec 31, 2013 18:24:04 GMT -5
It's too bad more people can't appreciate how fun his run has been, and how great a performer he's been during it, because they're too wrapped up in their own cynicism.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 31, 2013 18:34:01 GMT -5
What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that the reason there isn't going to be a big "star-making" angle for Bryan coming up isn't that he's getting held down and denied it, it's because he's already a star. This is his schtick, being the plucky underdog who fights the good fight and gets beaten up and then people hate the heels who took him down. His occasional moments of genuine victory will always be quickly followed by more grief and punishment from villains. That isn't a burial, that's his character, and it's a valuable character to have in a pro wrestling promotion. You just described a jobber to the stars. I think Bryan deserves better than that. Yes that kind of character is needed, but that's not what Daniel Bryan should be. The role of the plucky underdog who fights the good fight, occasionally wins, but more often than not gets beaten down by the heels and ultimately loses the feud should be played by guys who have the tools and the talent but for whatever reason lack one or more intangibles to put them into permanent stardom. That's where a guy like The Miz or Dolph Ziggler belongs or where certain guys in the mid to lower card ideally should be pushed up to (Tyson Kidd, Alex Riley, Kofi Kingston) but not someone as good as Daniel Bryan.
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Post by sybaku on Dec 31, 2013 18:40:19 GMT -5
So... were "smart" fans able to wrap their heads around Mick Foley back in the Attitude Era, or did he inspire a similar constant barrage of blithering whining that management was trying to bury him and destroy his momentum because they resented him getting over? What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that the reason there isn't going to be a big "star-making" angle for Bryan coming up isn't that he's getting held down and denied it, it's because he's already a star. This is his schtick, being the plucky underdog who fights the good fight and gets beaten up and then people hate the heels who took him down. His occasional moments of genuine victory will always be quickly followed by more grief and punishment from villains. That isn't a burial, that's his character, and it's a valuable character to have in a pro wrestling promotion. Exactly. People hated Orton and the Authority's guts for their antics against Bryan, and now people are despising the Wyatts for their antics against DB. It makes their downfalls (for the Authority, it's yet to come, since they are the bigger, main storyline) all the more satisfying. But when it's going to be someone like Cena getting that comeuppance it sort of ruins the story. What if Hulk Hogan hit the Leg Drop on Vince instead of Austin giving him the stunner?
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Dec 31, 2013 18:45:13 GMT -5
You just described a jobber to the stars. I think Bryan deserves better than that. And this is EXACTLY the smark mentality I was criticizing in my last post. Wins and losses aren't real. Kayfabe success is not the same thing as real success, although they'll sometimes overlap. The role of starmaker isn't some consolation prize for second-rate failures like Miz and Ziggler, it's a spot that's every bit as important as the heels the starmaker is putting over, if not more so (since those guys will often just drift back down the card once their main event programs are wrapped up).
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Dec 31, 2013 18:48:51 GMT -5
So... were "smart" fans able to wrap their heads around Mick Foley back in the Attitude Era, or did he inspire a similar constant barrage of blithering whining that management was trying to bury him and destroy his momentum because they resented him getting over? What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that the reason there isn't going to be a big "star-making" angle for Bryan coming up isn't that he's getting held down and denied it, it's because he's already a star. This is his schtick, being the plucky underdog who fights the good fight and gets beaten up and then people hate the heels who took him down. His occasional moments of genuine victory will always be quickly followed by more grief and punishment from villains. That isn't a burial, that's his character, and it's a valuable character to have in a pro wrestling promotion. Mick Foley wasn't more popular in arenas than Steve Austin was, to the point where when Austin & Rock were scheduled to wrestle, people were chanting "Foley". That's the difference. The crowds want Daniel Bryan over WWE's chosen golden boys. And they're often hijacking segments to show that support and shitting on WWE's ham-fisted booking plans because they're not getting it. That said, I myself am reserving all judgment on WWE until we see where Bryan is going at WrestleMania. WWE will deserve the scorn and ridicule IF they don't finish the natural and logical progression of Bryan's arc and have him become champion at WrestleMania and triumph undisputedly over the corrupt regime. Anything else other than that will be undefendable.
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BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Dec 31, 2013 18:52:08 GMT -5
You just described a jobber to the stars. I think Bryan deserves better than that. And this is EXACTLY the smark mentality I was criticizing in my last post. Wins and losses aren't real. Kayfabe success is not the same thing as real success, although they'll sometimes overlap. The role of starmaker isn't some consolation prize for second-rate failures like Miz and Ziggler, it's a spot that's every bit as important as the heels the starmaker is putting over, if not more so (since those guys will often just drift back down the card once their main event programs are wrapped up). I guess it's just a coincidence then that the top star in WWE is a 14 time world champion.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Dec 31, 2013 19:04:19 GMT -5
I'm not worried about D-Bryan until his screen time is reduced to having 5 minute matches with the Curtis Axel's of the world with Bryan losing more often than not.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Dec 31, 2013 20:12:48 GMT -5
He's been in a feuds that take up several segments of Raw for the most part of the last few years and moves a bunch of merchandise, won the WHC, won the WWE title, beat John Cena clean and is weirdly on a E! reality show.
WWE seems to be treating him pretty well.
Now Dolph Ziggler, there is a guy to worry about. Or maybe shift the worry to when Cesaro is going to break out of this tag team and get actual stories and singles run. Or get way out ahead and worry about Sami Zayn's callup and how that will be handled.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Dec 31, 2013 20:15:19 GMT -5
And this is EXACTLY the smark mentality I was criticizing in my last post. Wins and losses aren't real. Kayfabe success is not the same thing as real success, although they'll sometimes overlap. The role of starmaker isn't some consolation prize for second-rate failures like Miz and Ziggler, it's a spot that's every bit as important as the heels the starmaker is putting over, if not more so (since those guys will often just drift back down the card once their main event programs are wrapped up). I guess it's just a coincidence then that the top star in WWE is a 14 time world champion. that means he's also a guy who lost the belt 14 times and isn't thought of as a loser. Brock is a one tiem champ and he's portrayed as a total monster.
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BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Dec 31, 2013 20:28:04 GMT -5
I guess it's just a coincidence then that the top star in WWE is a 14 time world champion. that means he's also a guy who lost the belt 14 times and isn't thought of as a loser. Brock is a one tiem champ and he's portrayed as a total monster. Cena's main evented most PPVs since 2005. And the fact that he even got a chance to lose the title 14 times means he's usually in the title scene. You going to try and tell me that a push that big has nothing to do with the fact that he's the WWE's top guy? Brock is a 3 time champion, KotR winner, and Royal Rumble winner. And all this within less than 2 years. And besides, the fact that he's seen as a monster has more to do with his run in the UFC than in the WWE.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Dec 31, 2013 20:29:26 GMT -5
that means he's also a guy who lost the belt 14 times and isn't thought of as a loser. Brock is a one tiem champ and he's portrayed as a total monster. Cena's main evented most PPVs since 2005. And the fact that he even got a chance to lose the title 14 times means he's usually in the title scene. You going to try and tell me that a push that big has nothing to do with the fact that he's the WWE's top guy? Brock is a 3 time champion, KotR winner, and Royal Rumble winner. And all this within less than 2 years. And besides, the fact that he's seen as a monster has more to do with his run in the UFC than in the WWE. I totally forgot the angle with Big Show and Angle.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 20:36:16 GMT -5
Why AREN'T people worried about him?
I mean, the Wyatt Family just came and snatched him up! That's reason enough to worry!
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 31, 2013 20:45:45 GMT -5
Why AREN'T people worried about him? I mean, the Wyatt Family just came and snatched him up! That's reason enough to worry! Seemed to be fine the first time they kidnapped him
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BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Dec 31, 2013 20:55:18 GMT -5
Why AREN'T people worried about him? I mean, the Wyatt Family just came and snatched him up! That's reason enough to worry! Seemed to be fine the first time they kidnapped him You'll know there's something to really worry about this time when he comes out next week walking bow-legged, with his hand covering his ass.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 31, 2013 21:00:55 GMT -5
Seemed to be fine the first time they kidnapped him You'll know there's something to really worry about this time when he comes out next week walking bow-legged, with his hand covering his ass. He'll be fine. Piles can be soothed with ointment and.... Oh.
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xxshoyuweeniexx
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Dec 31, 2013 21:10:16 GMT -5
Seemed to be fine the first time they kidnapped him You'll know there's something to really worry about this time when he comes out next week walking bow-legged, with his hand covering his ass.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 31, 2013 21:15:23 GMT -5
I felt the same way about another guy, CM Punk. I was wrong then and were probably wrong now. I'm sure in a few years Bryan will be given everything Punk has been given since 2011 and more Thing is, why wait? Dude is inarguably the most over guy on the roster right now, so it makes no sense whatever to not capitalize on that RIGHT NOW, rather than run the risk of that cooling off. That's where the frustration is coming from; audiences are telling them, LOUDLY, what they want and to this point the WWE is only half ass giving it to them. This idea that any performer has to fit into a pre-conceived role when clearly they're capable of more, and your fanbase wants to see them do more is just weird.
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