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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 17, 2014 18:49:07 GMT -5
What's unfortunate, however, is that it's a way too common sight in areas of America that are predominantly African-American; again, we're still a ridiculously segregated country to this day, and for a lot of people this is an introduction to what must feel like a completely different planet from what they know, but has sadly existed for awhile now. I agree, and for whatever it’s worth: I’ve seen an interesting argument made that the U.S. - at the very least, a significant part of it - has only been truly introduced to democracy (the person compared it to ex-Warsaw Pact states) and the modern age very recently. It took until the latter half of the 20th century before the idea that all men and women are equal could actually be accepted in any significant sense, and certain people (a lot of them in significant positions of power) have continued to fight against that idea today, anyway, with a lot more success than they really should have. I do agree with that argument, and I think incidents like this are a result of that. As for my original post, it was more about the police and other trends in general than this particular incident, so I don’t think it’s worth expanding on. I hear you; it's not at all an exaggeration to call the United States through (arguably) 1964 a legitimate apartheid state. While the de jure form of segregation and apartheid was undone with the '64 Civil Rights Act and other action during that era, we're still mucking our way through all the de facto segregation and racism that continues on unabated. Won't post it since it's more directly political, but there's a great interview Bill Moyers did with the guy who created The Wire where he discusses this in a lot of detail; the guy did his homework to illustrate how a city like Baltimore can become two radically different places within a span of about three city blocks.
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crabbymelt
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Post by crabbymelt on Aug 17, 2014 19:12:12 GMT -5
Since my hometown is mentioned, I'll just add this. My aunt once described Baltimore as a mosaic more than a melting pot. On one side of a street, you have million dollar condos for white senior citizens. On the other side of the same street, it looks like a bomb hit it. In a city that boasts one of the highest number museums per square foot in the US, we also have one of the highest rape and murder rates. There are affluent black communities sandwiched between poor black communities, very old Italians, incredibly wealthy Koreans, some Indians, Jamaican grocers, Jewish folk, white people who swear they've been there since the beginning of time, and a ton of college students. And no group associates with each other. Ninety percent of the reason Baltimore is as bad as it is has to do with everyone of all colors sticking their fingers in their ears and going "I hear nothing. Not my problem." And this has been going on for decades.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure our mayor is a Muppet.
People have to talk in order for things to change. People need to be inconvenienced and have their noses bent and their priorities straightened. I could give a multitude of suggestions about this, but that's political so I won't.
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bigbadbull
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Post by bigbadbull on Aug 17, 2014 21:21:43 GMT -5
If you look at research, you'll find that The South is the most integrated part of the U.S. So dont let what other tell you as if the South is mostly filled with backward hicks.
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bigbadbull
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Post by bigbadbull on Aug 17, 2014 21:31:48 GMT -5
Who gives a shit what a rapper has to say about this? The last thing this situation needs is some hiphop or pop star trying to co-op this thing to help them sell more records. Nah man, not just "a rapper." I name-dropped those people for a reason. Don't-Come-Backlemore and his shitty culture-vulture ilk should be wished into the cornfield for this specific reason: Black culture is cool enough for everyone else to make money off of, all the while they turn around and talk shit about where it comes from to all this mainstream praise but the moment real shit goes down that costs black lives they don't have shit to say or do, nor does anything seem expected of them... What do you think is being referenced when someone says a clown like Miley Cyrus wants "everything but the burden?" Black culture is cool. Black people are not, so they don't get any real backlash for not saying anything when horrible shit befalls the people who create the culture they make so much money and fame from. And I would think if these clownshoes were really about Rap, Hip-Hop and various other parts of black culture outside the parts of it they can whitewash and profit from they actually might have something insightful to say and deal with the backlash that would come from being about something. But here I go expecting too much from people, so that's why I'm just like "**** 'em ." And that's my tangent. Even if, who wants someone like Macklemore making statements about Ferguson. Also, there's the fact that other cultures are co-opted and when something bad happens to them, the co-opters aren't out to defend them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 23:13:29 GMT -5
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Aug 17, 2014 23:33:02 GMT -5
I can support this notion, but the POTUS is a little stretched to be able to make that happen (not a political statement, but a civics one. It just isn't in his realm of authority). As I said, I do support the idea of cops wearing cameras. In cities that do that reports of misuse of force go down 40% or some insane number like that. The number of officer involved shootings also go down, if I am not mistaken. That not only cannot be a coincidence, that suggests some thoroughly unacceptable things about the police and their use of force.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 23:38:50 GMT -5
I can support this notion, but the POTUS is a little stretched to be able to make that happen (not a political statement, but a civics one. It just isn't in his realm of authority). As I said, I do support the idea of cops wearing cameras. In cities that do that reports of misuse of force go down 40% or some insane number like that. The number of officer involved shootings also go down, if I am not mistaken. That not only cannot be a coincidence, that suggests some thoroughly unacceptable things about the police and their use of force. Yeah, but I think showing large public support for it will help it get pushed up the docket. Makes it easier to justify the spending/support. Tangentially i just saw a vid of a cop threatening to shoot a journalist in the face in Ferguson.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 18, 2014 0:06:26 GMT -5
If you look at research, you'll find that The South is the most integrated part of the U.S. So dont let what other tell you as if the South is mostly filled with backward hicks. The history is a bit more complex than that (most of that integration wasn't exactly by choice), but it's true that the northern states have had their share of awful practices, most infamously the practice of "blockbusting" to create the ghettos on the south side of Chicago, along with post-WW2 white flight.
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bigbadbull
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Post by bigbadbull on Aug 18, 2014 0:36:50 GMT -5
If you look at research, you'll find that The South is the most integrated part of the U.S. So dont let what other tell you as if the South is mostly filled with backward hicks. The history is a bit more complex than that (most of that integration wasn't exactly by choice), but it's true that the northern states have had their share of awful practices, most infamously the practice of "blockbusting" to create the ghettos on the south side of Chicago, along with post-WW2 white flight. Right. Think about this: Parents choose where their children to go school, why should the children have to suffer the sins of their parents?
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 18, 2014 3:06:34 GMT -5
If the issue is that the police see black people as being inherently dangerous, then the protesters (minority it may be) are doing the black community no favours by resorting to violence throwing molotov cocktails. Also I think that CCTV video of the store robbery makes this whole crisis more complicated than it initially seemed. It indicates that Brown wasn't necessary the "gentle giant" he was made out to be, and perhaps he was aggressive to some degree when confronted by the cop. It doesn't necessarily justify him being shot to death, but there may be more to this whole thing than merely a harmless kid being brutalised by a trigger happy cop.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 18, 2014 5:01:43 GMT -5
If the issue is that the police see black people as being inherently dangerous, then the protesters (minority it may be) are doing the black community no favours by resorting to violence throwing molotov cocktails. Also I think that CCTV video of the store robbery makes this whole crisis more complicated than it initially seemed. It indicates that Brown wasn't necessary the "gentle giant" he was made out to be, and perhaps he was aggressive to some degree when confronted by the cop. It doesn't necessarily justify him being shot to death, but there may be more to this whole thing than merely a harmless kid being brutalised by a trigger happy cop. Honestly I'm not sure it changes much. Even if the police's claims are 100% true, which is unlikely as it seems to contradict itself at several points, I don't see how lethal force was justified, especially as Brown was not a suspect of the robbery at the time (and we have yet to have confirmation that it was Brown who did it) and I can't think of any way a lethal shooting on an unarmed person is justifiable. You can't even argue they went for a non-lethal attack and accidentally hit him in the head because with six shots hitting him, there's no way they weren't going for the kill. So at best it's manslaughter and/or unlawful use of deadly force.
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mattperiolat
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Post by mattperiolat on Aug 18, 2014 9:33:49 GMT -5
I can support this notion, but the POTUS is a little stretched to be able to make that happen (not a political statement, but a civics one. It just isn't in his realm of authority). As I said, I do support the idea of cops wearing cameras. In cities that do that reports of misuse of force go down 40% or some insane number like that. The number of officer involved shootings also go down, if I am not mistaken. That not only cannot be a coincidence, that suggests some thoroughly unacceptable things about the police and their use of force. Yeah, but I think showing large public support for it will help it get pushed up the docket. Makes it easier to justify the spending/support. Tangentially i just saw a vid of a cop threatening to shoot a journalist in the face in Ferguson. Just saw the same video. That and Chris Harris of NBC made the mistake of stepping 20 FEET outside the media area and was lit up with spotlights and told to get back or he was getting "f***ing maced." Oh and the governor of Missouri has called out the National Guard to restore order. A move I suggested might have been in order THREE DAYS AGO. And I will just repeat what I said at the beginning - I'll never understand quite what it's like to be black, to live under intimidation, to know that my rights and freedom,if not my life, are subject to the whims of someone with a gun and that individual's judgment based my my appearance and his prejudices. Sorry, guys, it has to be said.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Aug 18, 2014 10:30:49 GMT -5
To make this purely informational and not political: I am pretty sure this would fall under States Rights, not Federal. Basically Missouri would have to enact this measure for it to actually happen. That said, momma always told me to aim high, so sending it to Washington is a good enough idea to build awareness.
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StuntGranny®
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Post by StuntGranny® on Aug 18, 2014 17:39:20 GMT -5
If you look at research, you'll find that The South is the most integrated part of the U.S. So dont let what other tell you as if the South is mostly filled with backward hicks. Outside of three years in Ohio, I have lived in the South for my entire life. I would argue that some of the states are mostly filled with backwards hicks. Alabama, for example, deserves it's awful reputation. There are some states that have really cool, progressive cities strewn about.
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bigbadbull
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Post by bigbadbull on Aug 18, 2014 17:40:56 GMT -5
If you look at research, you'll find that The South is the most integrated part of the U.S. So dont let what other tell you as if the South is mostly filled with backward hicks. Outside of three years in Ohio, I have lived in the South for my entire life. I would argue that some of the states are mostly filled with backwards hicks. Alabama, for example, deserves it's awful reputation. There are some states that have really cool, progressive cities strewn about. Of course there are awful Southern states, but if you lived in Georgia, specifically Atlanta, you'd see it's a diverse, open city.
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StuntGranny®
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Post by StuntGranny® on Aug 18, 2014 17:51:29 GMT -5
Outside of three years in Ohio, I have lived in the South for my entire life. I would argue that some of the states are mostly filled with backwards hicks. Alabama, for example, deserves it's awful reputation. There are some states that have really cool, progressive cities strewn about. Of course there are awful Southern states, but if you lived in Georgia, specifically Atlanta, you'd see it's a diverse, open city. I live in Georgia now and I would agree concerning Atlanta. I think Georgia gets a worse reputation than it deserves. Hell, Tennessee is even better than places like Alabama. At least it has Nashville and Chattanooga (both cool cities, in my opinion). I can't think of one city I'd want to make a special visit to in Mississippi or Alabama. And I don't mean to specifically shit all over Alabama. I just have the most experience with it since I grew up there. I know how behind the times it is and how racism is still very prevalent there. Fun fact: I graduated from high school in 2004. Our school was 100% Caucasian and they were openly proud of it.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Aug 18, 2014 17:59:17 GMT -5
All I know is, the police force that confronted protesters earlier this week looked like an invading army rather than an actual police force.
It's long past time to consider how prudent it is to arm police with weapons used in Iraq to combat IEDs.
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AFN: Judge Shred
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Aug 18, 2014 18:12:18 GMT -5
All I know is, the police force that confronted protesters earlier this week looked like an invading army rather than an actual police force. It's long past time to consider how prudent it is to arm police with weapons used in Iraq to combat IEDs. Worse yet, they looked like a poorly trained invading army.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 0:10:26 GMT -5
Another night of tear gas, militant police intimidation and attempted media blackouts.
I don't know if the National Guard is there or not at this point, all I see are local PD from the images coming out of Ferguson on twitter.
Cops were seen ripping a press badge off a reporter saying "This badge don't mean shit."
And basically driving the media out of the designated free speech/press zone and sending them back to the pre-staging area.
Jesus - whoever is directing traffic for the PD is asleep at the wheel because this is just such a mismanaged situation - to say the very least.
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Renslayer
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Post by Renslayer on Aug 19, 2014 14:55:09 GMT -5
One quick note on the Molotovs. The police keep saying they have been thrown, but nobody has seen a single one. Not the people on the street, the journalists, or on any of the livestreams. Also, if people were really tossing cocktails, a whole lot of stuff would be on fire. That hasn't been the case
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