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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 26, 2014 11:19:49 GMT -5
What gets me is that fans always have different reasons as to why they don't like WWE's faces. Some I can totally understand, others not so much.
They are often less developed than the heels, and I can see how people don't like it when they don't take situations seriously or don't retaliate properly. But half the time I wonder, even if the faces were booked better and the top faces weren't as overexposed- would that really change anything? Or do fans really do want more of an Attitude approach in their top guys?
Often I can't tell if the problem really is bad writing, or people just wanting a certain kind of face. For me, hopefully Bryan (who is as nice and upright as a face can be) taking off the way he did was a sign that that's not the case, and that you don't have to be an Austin-style badass to get fans to cheer for you so long as you make sense. But the way a lot of fans talk makes me doubt that.
And I loved Austin, but mostly because of his insane charisma rather than the Stone Cold persona itself. He could have been Stunning Steve and I still would have enjoyed him beating up Vince.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 26, 2014 11:25:38 GMT -5
I didn't include him or Bryan because they're not on Raw for now since Ambrose was written out last week. Unless I missed him appearing? He is fantastic though. Great character. He's one who I make sure to catch his matces/ semens each week.So it's not just Roman Reigns being "forced down our throats"!? No. Dean is down our throats consensually.
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keezy
Dennis Stamp
full time slacker
Posts: 4,621
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Post by keezy on Aug 26, 2014 11:26:19 GMT -5
Sheamus, I don't like the character but I enjoy his matches, especially when he and his opponent aren't afraid to make things look painful, he's particularly good with guys around his size or similar style like Barrett, Cesaro, Ryback, Titus, etc.
I did like Dolph for a while, I think his character is wearing thin, Shawn Michaels eventually had to do more than be a cocky pretty boy who gyrates and flexes.
Usos should have lost the belts to the Wyatts, I've yet to see anything from them other than "they're Samoan, they do typical Samoan moves and dance sometimes", even the Bellas towards the end of their run as a team showed more variety and you could tell who was who.
AJ has no character anymore other than being a familiar face, and it's forced Paige to show her true character.
I'm enjoying Swagger, his matches have been really good, he's an intense babyface who puts on good matches, although I can see him turning heel again in a flash because his gimmick is only really that he's American. Put him against someone who's also American and you have no fuel.
That being said, Ambrose, Jericho, Dust Brothers, I enjoy them, Mark Henry and Big Show are better together than apart, I still enjoy RVD's matches although he is stale, same said for Kofi.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Aug 26, 2014 11:35:30 GMT -5
What gets me is that fans always have different reasons as to why they don't like WWE's faces. Some I can totally understand, others not so much. They are often less developed than the heels, and I can see how people don't like it when they don't take situations seriously or don't retaliate properly. But half the time I wonder, even if the faces were booked better and the top faces weren't as overexposed- would that really change anything? Or do fans really do want more of an Attitude approach in their top guys? Often I can't tell if the problem really is bad writing, or people just wanting a certain kind of face. For me, hopefully Bryan (who is as nice and upright as a face can be) taking off the way he did was a sign that that's not the case, and that you don't have to be an Austin-style badass to get fans to cheer for you so long as you make sense. But the way a lot of fans talk makes me doubt that. And I loved Austin, but mostly because of his insane charisma rather than the Stone Cold persona itself. He could have been Stunning Steve and I still would have enjoyed him beating up Vince. For me, I just want my faces to be interesting and entertaining. I liked Bryan because he was a genuinely funny, likeable guy with problems with his temper yet was still a reasonably good guy plus he was booked as a total underdog who you could get behind. Time after time he was laid out by the heels and beat up and, if I remember right, he also lost a lot of matches and didn't win all the time. He had both character (a good guy with a bad temper who let little things anger him) and a reason for us to support him (an underdog). With Cena, I've no problems with his actual character. I like his "never give up" motivated guy thing. I'm a fan of his character but I feel no tension or threat in any of his feuds and matches because he's very rarely in any peril. You know he'll "overcome the odds" again. Ambrose I like because he's wild, unpredictable and violent. He's basically a heel targeting faces and it works. Plus he plays his character so well. Again, he's booked to look vulnerable. He can be beat so there's tension in his matches. Stardust/Goldust I liked because, again, they had characters. Two bizarre freaks who spout gibberish yet are still good family guys and good brothers to each other. They were interesting so I liked them. Swagger I like because he's an All American, good guy patriot. He's got a goofy charisma that I can't help but like and honestly, I'm a sucker for the patriot, flag-waving American gimmick. It always entertains me for some reason. Plus again, he's booked to look vulnerable so you can get behind him. Most faces, just don't entertain me. They either get the boring superman push, become lame-joke telling comedy guy, dancing comedy guy or happy-go-lucky devoid of any personality Kofi Kingstonesque babyface. Edit: I will say this for Sheamus and Ziggler who I criticised. Both are fantastic when they get in the ring. Especially Sheamus who I'd put in the top 5 WWE wrestlers today. The guy is a phenomenal wrestler.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 11:35:55 GMT -5
Reigns- Forced down our throats. I'm so incredibly tired of this stupid expression. Anyone else? Yeah - it pretty much assumes people univerally hate having things shoved down their throats which, if porn is any indicator, is largely untrue.
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Post by walterharrow on Aug 26, 2014 11:41:40 GMT -5
I dont mind Reigns (i like Ambrose and Rollins more but im a fan of Reigns), but i just hate the fact that they are basically making him Cena 2.0. I hate that they wont let him look weak. Every time he gets attacked or beat down by someone (Randy on Smackdown, Kane/Rollins on Raw) he just has to be the last man standing. Why couldnt they let Rollins (and Kane) stand over him last night and they have Reigns look for revenge?
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Aug 26, 2014 11:43:43 GMT -5
Despite my criticism of the WWE comedy, joke-telling guys, I wouldn't mind it if the jokes were funny or, so-bad and cheesey that they ended up being funny anyway rather than the usual lame WWE brand insults ("Maryse, you have Hippopotamus breath", "toolbox!", "clown shoes" etc) . If Sheamus pulled out Ellie's joke book and said "Hey Fella, the frustrated cannibal threw up his hands!" or "Those fish were shy. They were obviously coy!" then I'd be a fan for life.
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Post by cabbageboy on Aug 26, 2014 11:53:37 GMT -5
I think the problem is that WWE only knows how to tell stories from the heel point of view these days. We just came off a PPV where the faces were all built up for a couple of months to be crushed by the heels.
There's also an elephant in the room here: WWE doesn't have that many great heels either. I guess Lesnar is, but he really doesn't cheat or DO anything evil. In fact if not for Heyman (who is a great heel) there would be no real reason to boo Lesnar. Same deal with Rusev. Other than Lana badmouthing America, why exactly is Rusev an evildoer? Rollins is currently the only guy in WWE that I think fans want to see get horribly destroyed and would pay money to see it. It is no coincidence that Ambrose is also one of the most over babyfaces. It takes two to tango. It's tough to be an over face without an over heel and vice versa.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Aug 26, 2014 11:57:59 GMT -5
I think the problem is that WWE only knows how to tell stories from the heel point of view these days. We just came off a PPV where the faces were all built up for a couple of months to be crushed by the heels. There's also an elephant in the room here: WWE doesn't have that many great heels either. I guess Lesnar is, but he really doesn't cheat or DO anything evil. In fact if not for Heyman (who is a great heel) there would be no real reason to boo Lesnar. Same deal with Rusev. Other than Lana badmouthing America, why exactly is Rusev an evildoer? Rollins is currently the only guy in WWE that I think fans want to see get horribly destroyed and would pay money to see it. It is no coincidence that Ambrose is also one of the most over babyfaces. It takes two to tango. It's tough to be an over face without an over heel and vice versa. Love him or hate him, Miz is a good heel. The moneymaker thing is gold. Just makes you want to see someone give him a slap. But yeah, I see your point. Bray isn't evil enough. He's entertaining, but the things he does are cool. He should have kidnapped Cena's bad and beat him up to make a point or something. Not sang songs and hired children to sing which was admittedly awesome, but more faceish than heelish. It's the sort of thing you expect 'Taker to do in the buildup to a feud. At least the heels are entertaining though. Bad News Barret is awesome, Bo Dallas manages to be so condescending that I can't help but find him funny, the Wyatt's are just cool, Cesaro.... how can I boo him? The guy is awesome. The heels may not be evil but they do entertain me which is more than most of the faces do.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 26, 2014 12:10:30 GMT -5
I always felt the issue was that WWE often either books its babyfaces as jerks (e.g. Sheamus making Mexican jokes at Del Rio, Rock using homophobic material, most faces constantly taking disproportionate retribution against slight wrongs by heels, etc.), or simply doesn't book them to ever really be in peril. Wrestling Booking 101 is that you have to get your audience emotionally involved in what's happening, and the easiest way to do that is to convince them that their hero is in trouble and may not survive this particular challenge, while simultaneously rallying those fans to want to see that hero beat the crap out of the villain that's causing all the trouble.
Instead, WWE has basically become WCW if it had booked Sting to beat the Horsemen up every week, and then beat them at Clash of the Champions, then maybe Flair gets one fluke win when Sting is distracted by a burning school bus full of orphans careening toward a bridge that only he can prevent, then Sting destroys them again at Starrcade to absolutely no heat. What's the draw?
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odor31
Unicron
The Stunner Collector
Posts: 3,240
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Post by odor31 on Aug 26, 2014 12:22:51 GMT -5
Reigns - I like him, but he's been so forced lately it's not enjoyable.
Cena - Appreciate his commitment, don't like his booking.
Sheamus - Talented, but stuck in mid-card hell
The Usos - Really enjoy them, I disagree with the OP.
Kofi Kingston - Royal Rumble spot monkey - I don't see anything more.
Big Show & Mark Henry - Best role for Show, keep him in a tag. Mark Henry is on point.
Los Matadores - Yeah right.
Dolph Ziggler - Uber talented, not World Title caliber (as much as I hate to admit it), keep working at it
Brie Bella - Honestly, the only storyline I care for currently.
RVD - Not gelling with his wheel of aggression with Cesaro.
Swagger - He's really getting there. Finally making me give a damn.
AJ - Doing better than ever. Better than Paige.
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Post by Just call me D.j.m. on Aug 26, 2014 14:31:26 GMT -5
Reigns- Forced down our throats. I'm so incredibly tired of this stupid expression. Anyone else? "forced down our throats" has been forced down our throats for almost as long as Cena has been forced down our throats.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 14:33:45 GMT -5
I want Roman Reigns to have the nickname of The Asphyxiator after this thread.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 26, 2014 14:44:10 GMT -5
I think the problem is that WWE only knows how to tell stories from the heel point of view these days. We just came off a PPV where the faces were all built up for a couple of months to be crushed by the heels. There's also an elephant in the room here: WWE doesn't have that many great heels either. I guess Lesnar is, but he really doesn't cheat or DO anything evil. In fact if not for Heyman (who is a great heel) there would be no real reason to boo Lesnar. Same deal with Rusev. Other than Lana badmouthing America, why exactly is Rusev an evildoer? Rollins is currently the only guy in WWE that I think fans want to see get horribly destroyed and would pay money to see it. It is no coincidence that Ambrose is also one of the most over babyfaces. It takes two to tango. It's tough to be an over face without an over heel and vice versa. Love him or hate him, Miz is a good heel. The moneymaker thing is gold. Just makes you want to see someone give him a slap. But yeah, I see your point. Bray isn't evil enough. He's entertaining, but the things he does are cool. He should have kidnapped Cena's bad and beat him up to make a point or something. Not sang songs and hired children to sing which was admittedly awesome, but more faceish than heelish. It's the sort of thing you expect 'Taker to do in the buildup to a feud. At least the heels are entertaining though. Bad News Barret is awesome, Bo Dallas manages to be so condescending that I can't help but find him funny, the Wyatt's are just cool, Cesaro.... how can I boo him? The guy is awesome. The heels may not be evil but they do entertain me which is more than most of the faces do. That's the problem. The faces aren't given any avenues to be entertaining and actually connect with the fans. Why isn't Kofi bringing out children and singing? Why isn't Dolph uppercutting the shit out of everything that moves? Why wasn't a face given the "inspirational" gimmick that Bo has? I don't like the moneymaker gimmick all that much, but why wasn't Miz given the chance to do all of this as a face? I know I bring up Alex Riley way too much, but he has shown more personality and character on the pre-shows/commentary than he was ever given the chance to/allowed to as a competitor. WWE needs to start building face wrestlers from the ground up with likable personalities
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Post by PsychoGoatee on Aug 26, 2014 15:40:34 GMT -5
I love RVD and Jericho personally, and for new guys as cheesy as he may be I do enjoy rooting for Roman Reigns. And there's nothing wrong with rooting for heels, especially The Beast Incarnate who will rule the universe for the foreseeable future. We're fans on a message board, we're allowed to cheer for the heels, as long as the kids still boo them.
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Post by Lazy peon on Aug 26, 2014 15:46:25 GMT -5
So it's not just Roman Reigns being "forced down our throats"!? No. Dean is down our throats consensually. Dean doesn't seem like he does anything consensually.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,103
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Aug 26, 2014 17:11:03 GMT -5
On top of that they still spend way too much time establishing how cool and badass the heels are then have these blandy babyfaces beat them. If they flipped the script on the heel/face dynamics with a few very small tweaks it would probably make more sense. And if they did that, everyone would complain that WWE is holding back the heels, and not letting them be as awesome as they can be.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 26, 2014 17:15:45 GMT -5
On top of that they still spend way too much time establishing how cool and badass the heels are then have these blandy babyfaces beat them. If they flipped the script on the heel/face dynamics with a few very small tweaks it would probably make more sense. And if they did that, everyone would complain that WWE is holding back the heels, and not letting them be as awesome as they can be. Heels are not supposed to be "awesome".
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Lila
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Post by Lila on Aug 26, 2014 17:18:17 GMT -5
I kinda agree. There's not one face I'm cheering on these days.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Aug 26, 2014 17:20:17 GMT -5
The Usos though. Great wrestlers, charismatic with a great gimmick that gets people interested. I don't know what more WWE and the Usos themselves could be doing?
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