Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 16:46:16 GMT -5
Yeah I get that he's saying that. But I don't get his reasoning. He's got an observation that he, Mary J., Eddie Murphy, and Jay-Z live in a neighborhood full of, I guess, "average" white people? A quick search, so forgive if it's not deadly accurate, says the average dentists salary is $163k a year. In that case, I want to be average so, so hard. I don't have any experience with making 6 figures and owning a multimillion dollar home, is that salary enough to pay for that expensive of a house? If there was a black dentist that was making good money, he could live in that neighborhood. Unless, like I said, he's making a point that black people either don't partake in said profession or don't get paid as well. Or maybe it's that the white people are born into money, so they've got a ton stacked away PLUS what they make in their profession. I'm not trying to claim reverse racism! or anything dumb. Chris Rock can be great and has excellent delivery, but I think that delivery lets him get by with some sort of bullshit material sometimes. His take on Columbine, for example, was ridiculously stupid. So I was just sort of breaking down what he said, because I didn't feel like his example was any proof of his claim, just an observation that 4 black entertainers live in a white neighborhood and one of them happens to be a dentist. That's used to support the one thing I know I was always told by my parents. It's like the one constant that nearly every black parent I know has passed down to their kids, especially in regards to having to compete in anything that involves competing directly against white people: "You have to be twice as good to get half as much." I mean, Chris Rock ain't full of shit here. Black people still make less money doing the same jobs as our white counterparts and until arguably very recently black people weren't even allowed to accumulate wealth, so even when you say "average" the average black home still has a hell of a lot less wealth to kick around than the average white household. And from a white person's perspective, that shit really hurts my feelings, because the implication is that we don't have to work hard. It's not the intention of the statement, I understand. But my whole life I felt like anything I would ever accomplish wouldn't matter because, in the eyes of the world, I'm white, I've got both parents, and I'm not poor, so basically the world is handed to me on a silver platter. I listened to rap music that glorified the struggle of growing up poor and black, and it captivated me, I admierd that. I grew up with a black grandfather by marriage, a Puerto Rican uncle and 2 cousins by marriage, and they all were just struggling and struggling, and we always seemed okay. I have always felt uncomfortable, even embarrassed, about my place in the world. Like, lifelong depression, not just because of that but it's part of it. And I think it has a lot to do with statements like that and the general depiction of white people of lucky, un-inspired, unexceptional drones who get by because of their color. It's a massive guilt-trip, plus I was raised Catholic so holy shit. That may sound like a bullshit whine, and it's prefereable to legitimate, institutional racism. But there's another side to these things, that's all. That quote from Chris Rock just made those feelings come up. I also don't like his dismissiveness towards a profession that requires a ton of schooling, a ton of skills/knowledge, gets compensated well, etc. Like, being a dentist is impressive. Sure, he may not be famous, and what he does isn't glamorous, but he acts like that guy is average, and that's not true. Also, one of my main points that got lost in a tangent, doesn't Chris Rock make a lot more money than a dentist? Couldn't Chris Rock live in a more expensive neightborhood? Couldn't the dentist be living beyond his means?
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Hawk Hart on Sept 1, 2014 16:48:32 GMT -5
I mean this country in general dude. Ignoring problems don't make them go away, minor steps of progress are still minor. My family was poor cotton farmers in Northeast Arkansas, my family didn't do shit but work alongside minorities but trying to downplay history because you weren't there just makes you look even more ignorant. Why don't you try addressing solid arguments instead of saying "Nuh uh, minorities complain too much!" I honestly don't think you've addressed the bigger problem here, opting to take pot shots on easy things instead. Really? I never said anything remotely in the ballaprk of "minorities complain too much". My first posts were trying to correct this idea of TV only being white rather than mixed, and after it was seeing if it was people here taking various peoples and calling them white. I'm getting sick of my arguments getting ignored in lieu of some strawman argument. Your arguments are getting as much attention as you're giving outs Mikey. We're talking about how racism towards nonwhites still exists and is a huge deal, you're trying to downplay that by flat out ignoring concise posts that address your points and bringing up forms of oppression that were done away with long ago. No one denied that people of other nationalities were discriminated against but they really aren't on the scale that you're eluding to anymore so it makes that a moot point that has no place taking up three pages of the topic. I don't see why we can't go with my life plan of just f***ing treating people like people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 16:49:07 GMT -5
OK, so, there was this thing called slavery... And then there was this 3/5th clause... and then there were Jim Crow laws... I mean, there's been quite a lot. Not to mention how recent all this shit happened. American Chattel Slavery ended...what? About 140 years ago? Thinking about it, my grandfather is at the spry young age of 82. My grandfather's father would've actually been a slave. It ain't that long ago. And if we talk about Jim Crow and how particularly in a place like Louisiana that shit didn't really end until the 1970s?! Dude. My mom and dad were born in 1957. My mother remembers the day her school got integrated. Her older brothers were politically active staging sit-ins and the like, they went to schools in the time when that shit was still segregated. My dad has a ton of stories about Black Atakapa-descended cousins getting lynched, not being served by any hotels when night fell, knowing which towns were safe to stop in after dark in the first place... This would've been the 1960s. Even if you consider all that stuff over, it wasn't that long ago when it was all in full swing. A lot of y'all have parents and grandparents who lived on either side of that shit too. This hits so close to home for me. My mom was born in 1973. She saw burning crosses when she lived in Alabama as a little girl. For all the "Slavery was like 400 years ago" shit that gets brought up... It wasn't. And there's still shit happening to this day. We've made leaps in a short while, but there's still miles and miles away from the finish line.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 1, 2014 16:52:11 GMT -5
And from a white person's perspective, that shit really hurts my feelings, because the implication is that we don't have to work hard. It's not the intention of the statement, I understand. But my whole life I felt like anything I would ever accomplish wouldn't matter because, in the eyes of the world, I'm white, I've got both parents, and I'm not poor, so basically the world is handed to me on a silver platter. I listened to rap music that glorified the struggle of growing up poor and black, and it captivated me, I admierd that. I grew up with a black grandfather by marriage, a Puerto Rican uncle and 2 cousins by marriage, and they all were just struggling and struggling, and we always seemed okay. I have always felt uncomfortable, even embarrassed, about my place in the world. Like, lifelong depression, not just because of that but it's part of it. And I think it has a lot to do with statements like that and the general depiction of white people of lucky, un-inspired, unexceptional drones who get by because of their color. It's a massive guilt-trip, plus I was raised Catholic so holy shit. That may sound like a bullshit whine, and it's prefereable to legitimate, institutional racism. But there's another side to these things, that's all. That quote from Chris Rock just made those feelings come up. I also don't like his dismissiveness towards a profession that requires a ton of schooling, a ton of skills/knowledge, gets compensated well, etc. Like, being a dentist is impressive. Sure, he may not be famous, and what he does isn't glamorous, but he acts like that guy is average, and that's not true. I don't know anyone who will say that you had something handed to you if you go to school, get a medical degree, and become a dentist, but it's really impossible to discuss how institutional racism impacts minorities without pointing out the reality that to get to the same place often does require more if you're a minority.
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Post by Michael Coello on Sept 1, 2014 16:52:41 GMT -5
Really? I never said anything remotely in the ballaprk of "minorities complain too much". My first posts were trying to correct this idea of TV only being white rather than mixed, and after it was seeing if it was people here taking various peoples and calling them white. I'm getting sick of my arguments getting ignored in lieu of some strawman argument. Your arguments are getting as much attention as you're giving outs Mikey. We're talking about how racism towards nonwhites still exists and is a huge deal, you're trying to downplay that by flat out ignoring concise posts that address your points and bringing up forms of oppression that were done away with long ago. No one denied that people of other nationalities were discriminated against but they really aren't on the scale that you're eluding to anymore so it makes that a moot point that has no place taking up three pages of the topic. I don't see why we can't go with my life plan of just f***ing treating people like people. That plan falls flat when you group together billions due to them having the same skin color. That was my point.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 1, 2014 16:54:52 GMT -5
Your arguments are getting as much attention as you're giving outs Mikey. We're talking about how racism towards nonwhites still exists and is a huge deal, you're trying to downplay that by flat out ignoring concise posts that address your points and bringing up forms of oppression that were done away with long ago. No one denied that people of other nationalities were discriminated against but they really aren't on the scale that you're eluding to anymore so it makes that a moot point that has no place taking up three pages of the topic. I don't see why we can't go with my life plan of just f***ing treating people like people. That plan falls flat when you group together billions due to them having the same skin color. That was my point. When skin color was the basis for the worst of the discrimination, not so much. I know what your'e trying to say, but that really is what it comes down to, people who weren't white were treated the worst, and they were the easiest targets because they were the easiest to identify from a distance. The entire entertainment industry was created catering to the white demographic, with minorities rarely getting leading roles There are exceptions, but they were just that, exceptions. A couple shows here or there don't make a group equally represented. And as far as lumping billions due to them having the same skin color, it happens to blacks just as much. It's the notion that the Irish and Jews had to deal with the same discrimination that people took offense too, because that isn't true in America.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 16:56:48 GMT -5
The real crime in all of this: The CH video wasn't even funny.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Sept 1, 2014 16:56:56 GMT -5
Your arguments are getting as much attention as you're giving outs Mikey. We're talking about how racism towards nonwhites still exists and is a huge deal, you're trying to downplay that by flat out ignoring concise posts that address your points and bringing up forms of oppression that were done away with long ago. No one denied that people of other nationalities were discriminated against but they really aren't on the scale that you're eluding to anymore so it makes that a moot point that has no place taking up three pages of the topic. I don't see why we can't go with my life plan of just f***ing treating people like people. That plan falls flat when you group together billions due to them having the same skin color. That was my point. Your point is weak dude. I've pointed to my heritage, others have pointed to theirs, most of us in the United States don't identify by heritage. In this country, if you are white and speak English without an accent, doors open for you. That's how it works. Do you even interact with minorities because seeing the hardship and prejudice faced daily by nonwhites in the United States is disgusting. I'm making the point that all people should be treated fairly and equally regardless of physical attributes or social standing but you just keep ignoring that.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,600
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Post by khali on Sept 1, 2014 16:58:21 GMT -5
Ok but what does any of that have to do with the issues blacks faced during that time period? You are avoiding the core issue at hand. Black people have not always been on equal standing with whites in popular media. Quit ducking the issue with these silly, paper-thin examples. Which whites? Again, a lot of cultures fall into that broad catagory, and I'd love to hear from you how people like the Jewish people or Irish people or such had it so much easier than blacks in America. Short answer: Slavery. Long answer: Slavery, Jim Crow laws, lynchings. If you were making an argument that Native Americans were treated worse, there's a legitimate case. Even brining up that the Japanese were treated horribly during WW2 through placement in internment camps is a valid point. But saying the treatment of Jewish and Irish people in America is comparable to the treatment of black people is 100% factually wrong on every level.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
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Post by Hawk Hart on Sept 1, 2014 17:00:22 GMT -5
In a world with Mike Brown and John Crawford style incidents happening at an alarming rate, I don't see how anyone can attempt to make the case that anyone who's skin is white has it as bad as minorities in the United States in 2014 because that's obviously not the case.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,986
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Post by chazraps on Sept 1, 2014 17:02:52 GMT -5
Your arguments are getting as much attention as you're giving outs Mikey. We're talking about how racism towards nonwhites still exists and is a huge deal, you're trying to downplay that by flat out ignoring concise posts that address your points and bringing up forms of oppression that were done away with long ago. No one denied that people of other nationalities were discriminated against but they really aren't on the scale that you're eluding to anymore so it makes that a moot point that has no place taking up three pages of the topic. I don't see why we can't go with my life plan of just f***ing treating people like people. That plan falls flat when you group together billions due to them having the same skin color. That was my point. But those same people grouping together other people for having the same skin color and then selling them as property and not recognizing them as people is significantly worse. By the way, how was that your original point when you're claiming your original post was about a very inaccurate statement about 80s television?
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Post by Michael Coello on Sept 1, 2014 17:04:00 GMT -5
That plan falls flat when you group together billions due to them having the same skin color. That was my point. Your point is weak dude. I've pointed to my heritage, others have pointed to theirs, most of us in the United States don't identify by heritage. In this country, if you are white and speak English without an accent, doors open for you. That's how it works. Do you even interact with minorities because seeing the hardship and prejudice faced daily by nonwhites in the United States is disgusting. I'm making the point that all people should be treated fairly and equally regardless of physical attributes or social standing but you just keep ignoring that. I'm Ecuadorian. Born there, had to fight for 14 years for my citizenship, and dealing with a whole lot of shit from non-Spanish and other Spanish people as well from how I spoke and acted. That answer your f***ing questions?
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Sept 1, 2014 17:06:03 GMT -5
Your point is weak dude. I've pointed to my heritage, others have pointed to theirs, most of us in the United States don't identify by heritage. In this country, if you are white and speak English without an accent, doors open for you. That's how it works. Do you even interact with minorities because seeing the hardship and prejudice faced daily by nonwhites in the United States is disgusting. I'm making the point that all people should be treated fairly and equally regardless of physical attributes or social standing but you just keep ignoring that. I'm Ecuadorian. Born there, had to fight for 14 years for my citizenship, and dealing with a whole lot of shit from non-Spanish and other Spanish people as well from how I spoke and acted. That answer your f***ing questions? Then you should be the first to jump on the Anti-Racism bandwagon. And no, it doesn't answer my question because it just made me more confused as to why you seem so angry at minorities.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 1, 2014 17:06:45 GMT -5
Guys, enough.
Stop addressing the argument. Seriously. Leave it be.
Like I said, no "Oppression Olympics" posts, and if somebody makes one, I'm putting it on everybody here to soundly ignore it.
A historical discussion about, say, the development of the Irish from "non-white" to "white" in the 19th century, using intelligent sources, images, etc.? That's ok.
Anything addressing strawmen arguments that derail this? No.
Last warning, then the thread's locked.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 17:07:57 GMT -5
Alright, enough. You can disagree with people but don't f***ing call them out about race and interactions and so forth.
That ends now.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
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Post by nate5054 on Sept 1, 2014 17:08:14 GMT -5
And from a white person's perspective, that shit really hurts my feelings, because the implication is that we don't have to work hard. It's not the intention of the statement, I understand. But my whole life I felt like anything I would ever accomplish wouldn't matter because, in the eyes of the world, I'm white, I've got both parents, and I'm not poor, so basically the world is handed to me on a silver platter. I listened to rap music that glorified the struggle of growing up poor and black, and it captivated me, I admierd that. I grew up with a black grandfather by marriage, a Puerto Rican uncle and 2 cousins by marriage, and they all were just struggling and struggling, and we always seemed okay. I have always felt uncomfortable, even embarrassed, about my place in the world. Like, lifelong depression, not just because of that but it's part of it. And I think it has a lot to do with statements like that and the general depiction of white people of lucky, un-inspired, unexceptional drones who get by because of their color. It's a massive guilt-trip, plus I was raised Catholic so holy shit. That may sound like a bullshit whine, and it's prefereable to legitimate, institutional racism. But there's another side to these things, that's all. That quote from Chris Rock just made those feelings come up. I also don't like his dismissiveness towards a profession that requires a ton of schooling, a ton of skills/knowledge, gets compensated well, etc. Like, being a dentist is impressive. Sure, he may not be famous, and what he does isn't glamorous, but he acts like that guy is average, and that's not true. I don't know anyone who will say that you had something handed to you if you go to school, get a medical degree, and become a dentist, but it's really impossible to discuss how institutional racism impacts minorities without pointing out the reality that to get to the same place often does require more if you're a minority. The problem with "racism" and "institutional racism" is that the adjective in the latter tends to get left off, and creates more confusion/hurt because of it. They are not one in the same. On another note, "racism" probably needs its own adjective, "individual," to differentiate the two. Do whites benefit from institutional racism that has been in place since, well, probably the Renaissance? Yeah, on the whole I'd say yes. But that gets murky when it gets stretched to claims like "blacks can't be racist" when anyone individually can be racist, or that anyone who has worked hard in their life doesn't deserve what they've earned because they live in a society that has institutional racism. (on an aside, this isn't necessarily a specific response to you, just a general opinion of mine)
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Sept 1, 2014 17:16:49 GMT -5
You know what? I actually had a pretty angry post responding to Mikey Cee but I deleted it. This thread made me madder than I think I've ever been at a thread on FAN. I don't come on here to get mad, I come on here for fun. So yes, let's move on.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 1, 2014 17:17:46 GMT -5
I don't know anyone who will say that you had something handed to you if you go to school, get a medical degree, and become a dentist, but it's really impossible to discuss how institutional racism impacts minorities without pointing out the reality that to get to the same place often does require more if you're a minority. The problem with "racism" and "institutional racism" is that the adjective in the latter tends to get left off, and creates more confusion/hurt because of it. They are not one in the same. Do whites benefit from institutional racism that has been in place since, well, probably the Renaissance? Yeah, on the whole I'd say yes. But that gets murky when it gets stretched to claims like "blacks can't be racist" when anyone individually can be racist, or that anyone who has worked hard in their life doesn't deserve what they've earned because they live in a society that has institutional racism. (on an aside, this isn't necessarily a specific response to you, just a general opinion of mine) I agree with you completely, I think it's very important to separate between individual racism and institutional racism and there's a problem when people try to equate them.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Sept 1, 2014 17:24:49 GMT -5
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Sept 1, 2014 17:29:27 GMT -5
As a white person who was once given the nickname "Pale Thunder" (By myself, but I digress) I just want to say that I came into this thread to have a good time and I'm honestly feeling so oppressed right now.
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