Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Oct 2, 2014 9:39:50 GMT -5
I'm just wondering how long until this sentiment REALLY starts affecting his crowd reactions again beyond the normal 50/50 heat he's been getting since forever like it did in 2005/2006. I was seeing posts in the RAW thread saying he was getting a smaller reaction than normal... not more heel heat, but less heat PERIOD. It sort of wavered on Raw really. He got a pop for initially attacking Rollins at the start of the show but it quickly turned into booing, then when he attacked Rollins again at the end of it, they were dead silent. Maybe the crowd has adopted a "they're not listening so f*** it" mentality when it comes to Cena
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,145
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 2, 2014 9:45:07 GMT -5
I like the idea that it's just a big room filled with Empty Chairs that Vince carries on full conversations with. Mostly this, but I like the imagine that Gerald Brisco is sitting on a folding chair in the back of the room, every now and then piping up with "That's great, Mis-ter Mac-Man."
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ededdneddy
Hank Scorpio
ededdandembed
Posts: 5,697
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Post by ededdneddy on Oct 2, 2014 11:11:19 GMT -5
Cena: *talking to Punk* I'm trying to establish a friendship with you. All I've done is try to be nice to you, and you still don't like me. How can you not like me?
Punk: *sits Indian Style and stares him down* Okay, I'll tell you. You are the worst person I know. You constantly hit on your so called best friend's girl (Ryder & Eve). The man becomes more popular than you and it goes over and this is how you repay him? And you're such a sponge. You get title reigns after title reigns and you always say [mocks Cena] "Ooh, I'll defend it against you cause you deserve it", but it always ends with you gaining another reign. And what really bothers me, is you pretend that you're this deep guy that loves women for their souls, when all you do is date bimbos (Nikki). Yeah, I date women for their bodies, but at least I'm honest about it. I don't buy them a copy of Wordlife and then lecture them with some seventh grade interpretation about how Vince McMahon is some profound owner who knows what we want. He isn't! He is a spoiled brat! And that's why you like him so much. He's you! God, you're pretentious. And you delude yourself by thinking you're some great wrestler, even though you're terrible. And what I think I hate most about you is your textbook liberal agenda. How we should follow your [mocks again] "Hustle, Loyality, & Respect", how the higher ups are crushing the lower card, how Daniel Bryan's giving up the title is the biggest tragedy in WWE. Well what have you done to help? I actually made a stand for the WWE Universe. Never seen you do that when your not talking about Love Me or Hate Me I am still Your Champion. You wanna help? Go down to the lower card. And by the way, having 16 title reigns doesn't make you The Best in the World. Oh, wait. You aren't the best in the world, or in any wrestling company for that matter because [mocks again] "This is Entertainment". Well, who the hell are you to talk down to anyone? You failed at being a body builder, which isn't nearly as bad as your failure as a brother. How's that brother of yours you said you never see? But you know what? I could forgive all of that, all of it, if you weren't such a bore. That's the worst of it, Cena. You're just a big, sad, unentertaining bore!
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 2, 2014 12:15:24 GMT -5
After Cena broke into your home and stole every pen he could find in order to write himself a better character arc I'm not surprised you want to see him suffer. I totally don't get the "step aside logic" that Cena shouldn't go after someone who wronged him just because he wronged someone else too. They both should be going after Rollins, which ... they are. I don't remember any threads discussing whether HHH or Orton or Batista most "deserved" to get their hands on Bryan and how the others should drop it. Did Bryan try to kill any of them? That's the difference. And it's been mentioned ad nauseam almost to the point now wherein the defenders are embarrassing themselves with their straw grabbing. If two people have an issue with a guy, and one's grievance is merely an annoyance whilst the other is actual revenge for a betrayal and a subsequent murder attempt, the latter's quest for revenge is MORE IMPORTANT than the former's. I mean, it cannot really be morally argued. And I can't fathom how and why some are. If someone breaks into your house and steals something from you, but the same guy also hatched a murder plot against your neighbor that almost accomplished the job, who do you think is getting legal precedence in the case? And publicly, who do you think public sentiment lies with? It's not even close. And on top of that, Cena's the equivalent of that former guy trying to hunt down this scumbag himself for the B&E, as to is the attempted murder victim, and just as the latter has him, here comes Cena to pull him off so he can get his shots in. It's super selfish. Cena has every right to be mad. But he possesses no sense of common decency as a character. His problem is insignificant compared to Dean's. Cena's professional life isn't even over. There's been no mention of any ramifications of him not officially beat Brock on him whatsoever. So his entire quest is stupid in comparison.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Oct 2, 2014 13:25:26 GMT -5
I totally don't get the "step aside logic" that Cena shouldn't go after someone who wronged him just because he wronged someone else too. They both should be going after Rollins, which ... they are. I don't remember any threads discussing whether HHH or Orton or Batista most "deserved" to get their hands on Bryan and how the others should drop it. Did Bryan try to kill any of them? That's the difference. And it's been mentioned ad nauseam almost to the point now wherein the defenders are embarrassing themselves with their straw grabbing. If two people have an issue with a guy, and one's grievance is merely an annoyance whilst the other is actual revenge for a betrayal and a subsequent murder attempt, the latter's quest for revenge is MORE IMPORTANT than the former's. I mean, it cannot really be morally argued. And I can't fathom how and why some are. If someone breaks into your house and steals something from you, but the same guy also hatched a murder plot against your neighbor that almost accomplished the job, who do you think is getting legal precedence in the case? And publicly, who do you think public sentiment lies with? It's not even close. And on top of that, Cena's the equivalent of that former guy trying to hunt down this scumbag himself for the B&E, as to is the attempted murder victim, and just as the latter has him, here comes Cena to pull him off so he can get his shots in. It's super selfish. Cena has every right to be mad. But he possesses no sense of common decency as a character. His problem is insignificant compared to Dean's. Cena's professional life isn't even over. There's been no mention of any ramifications of him not officially beat Brock on him whatsoever. So his entire quest is stupid in comparison. This isn't a legal case, which I'm pretty sure you realize. So the analogy is not so much off base as it is nonsensical. Neither of these guys are meeting with the district attorney to see who's case is tried first. Ambrose came out of what you call "attempted murder" and said, "That was pretty cool." He's not after Rollins because of that. He's been after him since the guy left the Shield -- and he surely understood that if he repeatedly went after Rollins then sometime Rollins would retaliate: he knows the guy better than anyone else, so he definitely understood that Rollins would take it to an extreme. So the motivation for one (Cena) is that he believes the guy cost him winning the title back, cost him his own redemption from the previous beatdown. The motivation for the other (Ambrose) is, we used to be friends and you sold out to the Authority for your own benefit. If you choose to believe one has a better case for feeling the need to get at Rollins, bully for you. But that doesn't mean the other guy is going to say, 'Hmmm, he was wronged, too, I'll let him have first shot.' That's not how things work in life -- if someone rips me off for $20 and he rips you off for $500, if I can get to him first then I'm going after mine -- and I expect you to do the same. Both are pursuing payback. Since when do you take a number for that in wrestling?
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 2, 2014 13:46:46 GMT -5
Did Bryan try to kill any of them? That's the difference. And it's been mentioned ad nauseam almost to the point now wherein the defenders are embarrassing themselves with their straw grabbing. If two people have an issue with a guy, and one's grievance is merely an annoyance whilst the other is actual revenge for a betrayal and a subsequent murder attempt, the latter's quest for revenge is MORE IMPORTANT than the former's. I mean, it cannot really be morally argued. And I can't fathom how and why some are. If someone breaks into your house and steals something from you, but the same guy also hatched a murder plot against your neighbor that almost accomplished the job, who do you think is getting legal precedence in the case? And publicly, who do you think public sentiment lies with? It's not even close. And on top of that, Cena's the equivalent of that former guy trying to hunt down this scumbag himself for the B&E, as to is the attempted murder victim, and just as the latter has him, here comes Cena to pull him off so he can get his shots in. It's super selfish. Cena has every right to be mad. But he possesses no sense of common decency as a character. His problem is insignificant compared to Dean's. Cena's professional life isn't even over. There's been no mention of any ramifications of him not officially beat Brock on him whatsoever. So his entire quest is stupid in comparison. This isn't a legal case, which I'm pretty sure you realize. So the analogy is not so much off base as it is nonsensical. Neither of these guys are meeting with the district attorney to see who's case is tried first. Ambrose came out of what you call "attempted murder" and said, "That was pretty cool." He's not after Rollins because of that. He's been after him since the guy left the Shield -- and he surely understood that if he repeatedly went after Rollins then sometime Rollins would retaliate: he knows the guy better than anyone else, so he definitely understood that Rollins would take it to an extreme. So the motivation for one (Cena) is that he believes the guy cost him winning the title back, cost him his own redemption from the previous beatdown. The motivation for the other (Ambrose) is, we used to be friends and you sold out to the Authority for your own benefit. If you choose to believe one has a better case for feeling the need to get at Rollins, bully for you. But that doesn't mean the other guy is going to say, 'Hmmm, he was wronged, too, I'll let him have first shot.' That's not how things work in life -- if someone rips me off for $20 and he rips you off for $500, if I can get to him first then I'm going after mine -- and I expect you to do the same. Both are pursuing payback. Since when do you take a number for that in wrestling? What's stopping Cena, in kayfabe, from getting the "redemption" against Brock again, though? Disregarding the reality that Brock just isn't working right now and the entire PPV finish was set up to protect Cena from doing two jobs in a row? What's stopping Cena from pursuing another title shot? Has he even mentioned interest in it? Has there been one mention that Cena won't ever get a chance at Brock or the belt again? Rollins is a dick, but he's not the endgame. Had Rollins brutally assaulted him during said match in an attempt to try and kill him like he did Ambrose, Cena absolutely would be justified in wanting Seth first, because his grievance would be at least equal. But as it stood, it absolutely was not. Cena'a quest for revenge no matter how much you want to keep spinning it is not equal to Ambrose's. And Dean being mentally unbalanced and not viewing an attempted homicide rationally does not in any way discount the fact that it was still an attempted homicide. And therefore, in the face of reason, it is absolutely a much more important and prevalent issue than Cena's anger towards a title shot he'll get a thousand more times anyway. I don't understand why you keep making excuses and beating a dead horse here. Cena has a right to be angry. True. But in the face of everything that we the audience have been shown, his slight is not as significant as Dean's. And therefore, John should refocus on Brock (in kayfabe) and maybe just make sure justice is done with Seth by helping Dean finally get him. Because as it is, Cena's coming across horribly selfishly by blocking the dude who's grievance renders his own insignificant in dramatic comparison.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Oct 2, 2014 13:56:04 GMT -5
This isn't a legal case, which I'm pretty sure you realize. So the analogy is not so much off base as it is nonsensical. Neither of these guys are meeting with the district attorney to see who's case is tried first. Ambrose came out of what you call "attempted murder" and said, "That was pretty cool." He's not after Rollins because of that. He's been after him since the guy left the Shield -- and he surely understood that if he repeatedly went after Rollins then sometime Rollins would retaliate: he knows the guy better than anyone else, so he definitely understood that Rollins would take it to an extreme. So the motivation for one (Cena) is that he believes the guy cost him winning the title back, cost him his own redemption from the previous beatdown. The motivation for the other (Ambrose) is, we used to be friends and you sold out to the Authority for your own benefit. If you choose to believe one has a better case for feeling the need to get at Rollins, bully for you. But that doesn't mean the other guy is going to say, 'Hmmm, he was wronged, too, I'll let him have first shot.' That's not how things work in life -- if someone rips me off for $20 and he rips you off for $500, if I can get to him first then I'm going after mine -- and I expect you to do the same. Both are pursuing payback. Since when do you take a number for that in wrestling? What's stopping Cena, in kayfabe, from getting the "redemption" against Brock again, though? Disregarding the reality that Brock just isn't working right now and the entire PPV finish was set up to protect Cena from doing two jobs in a row? What's stopping Cena from pursuing another title shot? Has he even mentioned interest in it? Has there been one mention that Cena won't ever get a chance at Brock or the belt again? Rollins is a dick, but he's not the endgame. Had Rollins brutally assaulted him during said match in an attempt to try and kill him like he did Ambrose, Cena absolutely would be justified in wanting Seth first, because his grievance would be at least equal. But as it stood, it absolutely was not. Cena'a quest for revenge no matter how much you want to keep spinning it is not equal to Ambrose's. And Dean being mentally unbalanced and not viewing an attempted homicide rationally does not in any way discount the fact that it was still an attempted homicide. And therefore, in the face of reason, it is absolutely a much more important and prevalent issue than Cena's anger towards a title shot he'll get a thousand more times anyway. I don't understand why you keep making excuses and beating a dead horse here. Cena has a right to be angry. True. But in the face of everything that we the audience have been shown, his slight is not as significant as Dean's. And therefore, John should refocus on Brock (in kayfabe) and maybe just make sure justice is done with Seth by helping Dean finally get him. Because as it is, Cena's coming across horribly selfishly by blocking the dude who's grievance renders his own insignificant in dramatic comparison. The Authority is what's stopping him. They don't want him to be champion. That's why Lesnar's here to begin with. However, Trips and Steph begrudgingly admit that Cena is their "moneymaker" (same reason Vince never simply fired Austin) so they'd rather not have Brock pound his face into jam and render it useless to them. And Cena needs to get away from Brock for a bit. Protecting Cena from doing two jobs in a row may seem ridiculous, but they're not just protecting Cena. They're protecting the entire full time roster. If Brock were to crush Cena again, for the second/third time at consecutive PPVs, then it sends the message that the entire roster is essentially worthless.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Oct 2, 2014 13:58:30 GMT -5
Has Cena even challenged Brock and if not, have they ever explained why Cena hasn't at least challenged Brock (and don't use any non-kayfabed reasoning)? I mean he beat Brock and Brock is never one to back down from a challenge. Hell, Brock is more the type to charge in head first and leave the challenge in a pile of piss soaked shirts, yet Cena has run from Brock since NOC. Cena has actually targeted an innocent man in his quest to get at the man he feels wronged him instead of going after the his original target or the guy he claims to be mad at now.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 2, 2014 14:15:26 GMT -5
What's stopping Cena, in kayfabe, from getting the "redemption" against Brock again, though? Disregarding the reality that Brock just isn't working right now and the entire PPV finish was set up to protect Cena from doing two jobs in a row? What's stopping Cena from pursuing another title shot? Has he even mentioned interest in it? Has there been one mention that Cena won't ever get a chance at Brock or the belt again? Rollins is a dick, but he's not the endgame. Had Rollins brutally assaulted him during said match in an attempt to try and kill him like he did Ambrose, Cena absolutely would be justified in wanting Seth first, because his grievance would be at least equal. But as it stood, it absolutely was not. Cena'a quest for revenge no matter how much you want to keep spinning it is not equal to Ambrose's. And Dean being mentally unbalanced and not viewing an attempted homicide rationally does not in any way discount the fact that it was still an attempted homicide. And therefore, in the face of reason, it is absolutely a much more important and prevalent issue than Cena's anger towards a title shot he'll get a thousand more times anyway. I don't understand why you keep making excuses and beating a dead horse here. Cena has a right to be angry. True. But in the face of everything that we the audience have been shown, his slight is not as significant as Dean's. And therefore, John should refocus on Brock (in kayfabe) and maybe just make sure justice is done with Seth by helping Dean finally get him. Because as it is, Cena's coming across horribly selfishly by blocking the dude who's grievance renders his own insignificant in dramatic comparison. The Authority is what's stopping him. They don't want him to be champion. That's why Lesnar's here to begin with. However, Trips and Steph begrudgingly admit that Cena is their "moneymaker" (same reason Vince never simply fired Austin) so they'd rather not have Brock pound his face into jam and render it useless to them. And Cena needs to get away from Brock for a bit. Protecting Cena from doing two jobs in a row may seem ridiculous, but they're not just protecting Cena. They're protecting the entire full time roster. If Brock were to crush Cena again, for the second/third time at consecutive PPVs, then it sends the message that the entire roster is essentially worthless. Even if we accept this unspoken narrative, that still doesn't stop Cena himself from wanting to pursue the prize he feels he was gypped out of again. The problem with your scenario within kayfabe is that Cena should still want to be Champion and beat Brock and use everything in his power to accomplish that. Chasing Rollins from town to town while ignoring the prize he was angered got disrupted entirely in the first place is essentially worthless. Sure, it'd be nice to see the little weasel get justice, but why turn your full power onto that? How does that help your goals? And if the answer is "Because Brock's not wrestling right now" that's on WWE. It's up to them to craft a storyline that ties everything together and makes LOGICAL sense. And all it'd take is Cena wanting the case. That all said, this entire thread seems to come down, once again, to the two very different ways people choose to watch wrestling. One side takes it at complete face value because "it's just wrestling". And the other craves sensical exposition and reasoning as much as is humanly possible. Even though wrestling is "fake", it's meant to be consumed with suspension of disbelief. You're supposed to watch and have your buttons psychologically pushed. You were meant to believe, and say want to see Hogan get revenge on Earthquake. Or Savage on Jake. Or Austin on Vince. They created logical, relatable scenarios therein where you craved the hero's victory, because it wasn't just TOLD to you, it was SHOWN. You knew that a cobra gnawing on Macho's arm, or Jake slapping Liz was horrendous, and they didn't insult your intelligence by say inserting a Jim Duggan into the mix 'cause Roberts interfered once in a match and caused a DQ, and now Savage and Hacksaw are at odds to see who gets Jake first. No rational thinking person on earth would see Duggan as an equal victim. And right now, that's Cena in this thing. With no Ambrose? Fine. But the specter of a more significant grudge crushes Cena's relatability into fine powder.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Oct 2, 2014 14:17:46 GMT -5
Losing the WWE title makes Cena feel soft like Drake.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Oct 2, 2014 14:23:29 GMT -5
Has Cena even challenged Brock and if not, have they ever explained why Cena hasn't at least challenged Brock (and don't use any non-kayfabed reasoning)? I mean he beat Brock and Brock is never one to back down from a challenge. Hell, Brock is more the type to charge in head first and leave the challenge in a pile of piss soaked shirts, yet Cena has run from Brock since NOC. Cena has actually targeted an innocent man in his quest to get at the man he feels wronged him instead of going after the his original target or the guy he claims to be mad at now. I don't see what the issue is. He's running away from a challenger that he knows can beat his ass. That's what heels are supposed to do! ...What do you mean Cena isn't a heel?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Oct 2, 2014 14:27:41 GMT -5
Losing the WWE title makes Cena feel soft like Drake. So John Cena is the type of n**** to let the rabbit have some Trix?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Oct 2, 2014 14:28:51 GMT -5
Has Cena even challenged Brock and if not, have they ever explained why Cena hasn't at least challenged Brock (and don't use any non-kayfabed reasoning)? I mean he beat Brock and Brock is never one to back down from a challenge. Hell, Brock is more the type to charge in head first and leave the challenge in a pile of piss soaked shirts, yet Cena has run from Brock since NOC. Cena has actually targeted an innocent man in his quest to get at the man he feels wronged him instead of going after the his original target or the guy he claims to be mad at now. I don't see what the issue is. He's running away from a challenger that he knows can beat his ass. That's what heels are supposed to do! ...What do you mean Cena isn't a heel? He wants to preserve his health so he can continue entertaining each and every one of you every night!
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Oct 2, 2014 16:33:15 GMT -5
If I'm Cena and I show up at a show and find Rollins, who I feel cheated me out of avenging and reproving myself and winning the title back, and I ALSO find Brock isn't there, I'm going after Rollins.
Not only to get payback, but hopefully to get him out of the way so it doesn't happen again.
And I'm not going to look around the locker room and say, 'I know I have a grievance with Seth, but before I act on it, let me do a little survey and see if anyone else might be more justified in getting at him first, and if I find someone like that, I'll just take a number and hang out with the Bunny until it's my turn.'
If your suspension of disbelief allows you to decide that people who are wronged are put in some kind of pecking order and only try to get back at that person when everyone who might have a 'better' or 'more worthy' grievance have had their shot, well, my belief doesn't suspend like that. It's ludicrous.
Cena could just as well assess the situation and say, "Hmmm, Dean has been chasing this guy and trying to do this since Seth won MitB and he hasn't really accomplished anything yet ... so I don't want to wait indefinitely, that could take more months or even years. I think I'll go ahead and take care of it myself." Or he could say, "Dean's too much of a psycho to realize it, but the guy damn near killed him last time. If I take care of it, I might be doing him a favor and saving his life" to put it in a way SC might better understand.
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Post by hossfan on Oct 2, 2014 17:16:53 GMT -5
If I'm Cena and I show up at a show and find Rollins, who I feel cheated me out of avenging and reproving myself and winning the title back, and I ALSO find Brock isn't there, I'm going after Rollins. Not only to get payback, but hopefully to get him out of the way so it doesn't happen again. And I'm not going to look around the locker room and say, 'I know I have a grievance with Seth, but before I act on it, let me do a little survey and see if anyone else might be more justified in getting at him first, and if I find someone like that, I'll just take a number and hang out with the Bunny until it's my turn.' If your suspension of disbelief allows you to decide that people who are wronged are put in some kind of pecking order and only try to get back at that person when everyone who might have a 'better' or 'more worthy' grievance have had their shot, well, my belief doesn't suspend like that. It's ludicrous. Cena could just as well assess the situation and say, "Hmmm, Dean has been chasing this guy and trying to do this since Seth won MitB and he hasn't really accomplished anything yet ... so I don't want to wait indefinitely, that could take more months or even years. I think I'll go ahead and take care of it myself. Or he could say, "Dean's too much of a psycho to realize it, but the guy damn near killed him last time. If I take care of it, I might be doing him a favor and saving his life" to put it in a way SC might better understand. Not to mention there is no reason for Cena to care about what Dean Ambrose wants, given their history.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 2, 2014 17:18:24 GMT -5
What's stopping Cena, in kayfabe, from getting the "redemption" against Brock again, though? Disregarding the reality that Brock just isn't working right now and the entire PPV finish was set up to protect Cena from doing two jobs in a row? What's stopping Cena from pursuing another title shot? Has he even mentioned interest in it? Has there been one mention that Cena won't ever get a chance at Brock or the belt again? Rollins is a dick, but he's not the endgame. Had Rollins brutally assaulted him during said match in an attempt to try and kill him like he did Ambrose, Cena absolutely would be justified in wanting Seth first, because his grievance would be at least equal. But as it stood, it absolutely was not. Cena'a quest for revenge no matter how much you want to keep spinning it is not equal to Ambrose's. And Dean being mentally unbalanced and not viewing an attempted homicide rationally does not in any way discount the fact that it was still an attempted homicide. And therefore, in the face of reason, it is absolutely a much more important and prevalent issue than Cena's anger towards a title shot he'll get a thousand more times anyway. I don't understand why you keep making excuses and beating a dead horse here. Cena has a right to be angry. True. But in the face of everything that we the audience have been shown, his slight is not as significant as Dean's. And therefore, John should refocus on Brock (in kayfabe) and maybe just make sure justice is done with Seth by helping Dean finally get him. Because as it is, Cena's coming across horribly selfishly by blocking the dude who's grievance renders his own insignificant in dramatic comparison. The Authority is what's stopping him. They don't want him to be champion. That's why Lesnar's here to begin with. However, Trips and Steph begrudgingly admit that Cena is their "moneymaker" (same reason Vince never simply fired Austin) so they'd rather not have Brock pound his face into jam and render it useless to them. And Cena needs to get away from Brock for a bit. Protecting Cena from doing two jobs in a row may seem ridiculous, but they're not just protecting Cena. They're protecting the entire full time roster. If Brock were to crush Cena again, for the second/third time at consecutive PPVs, then it sends the message that the entire roster is essentially worthless. Authority ain't stopping him though; he hasn't even pursued a third match for them to stop.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 2, 2014 19:10:19 GMT -5
If I'm Cena and I show up at a show and find Rollins, who I feel cheated me out of avenging and reproving myself and winning the title back, and I ALSO find Brock isn't there, I'm going after Rollins. Not only to get payback, but hopefully to get him out of the way so it doesn't happen again. And I'm not going to look around the locker room and say, 'I know I have a grievance with Seth, but before I act on it, let me do a little survey and see if anyone else might be more justified in getting at him first, and if I find someone like that, I'll just take a number and hang out with the Bunny until it's my turn.' If your suspension of disbelief allows you to decide that people who are wronged are put in some kind of pecking order and only try to get back at that person when everyone who might have a 'better' or 'more worthy' grievance have had their shot, well, my belief doesn't suspend like that. It's ludicrous. Cena could just as well assess the situation and say, "Hmmm, Dean has been chasing this guy and trying to do this since Seth won MitB and he hasn't really accomplished anything yet ... so I don't want to wait indefinitely, that could take more months or even years. I think I'll go ahead and take care of it myself." Or he could say, "Dean's too much of a psycho to realize it, but the guy damn near killed him last time. If I take care of it, I might be doing him a favor and saving his life" to put it in a way SC might better understand. Dude, believe what you want. We don't need another mrjl situation around here. If you choose to want to see Cena's plight as equal to Dean's, congrats. You can construct whatever narrative you want void of logic and the basics of actual fundamental storytelling for all I care. There's apparently no reasoning with you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 19:17:49 GMT -5
I think one thing on Raw that really spelled out the issue here is how the attacks on Rollins went down at the end. When Cena had pinned him down, all Ambrose did was run in to jump in the fray, he didn't particularly try to get him by himself but rather was just trying to reach him. In response Cena grabbed Ambrose and tossed him aside - he's the one who made it physical.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Oct 2, 2014 20:56:10 GMT -5
If I'm Cena and I show up at a show and find Rollins, who I feel cheated me out of avenging and reproving myself and winning the title back, and I ALSO find Brock isn't there, I'm going after Rollins. Not only to get payback, but hopefully to get him out of the way so it doesn't happen again. And I'm not going to look around the locker room and say, 'I know I have a grievance with Seth, but before I act on it, let me do a little survey and see if anyone else might be more justified in getting at him first, and if I find someone like that, I'll just take a number and hang out with the Bunny until it's my turn.' If your suspension of disbelief allows you to decide that people who are wronged are put in some kind of pecking order and only try to get back at that person when everyone who might have a 'better' or 'more worthy' grievance have had their shot, well, my belief doesn't suspend like that. It's ludicrous. Cena could just as well assess the situation and say, "Hmmm, Dean has been chasing this guy and trying to do this since Seth won MitB and he hasn't really accomplished anything yet ... so I don't want to wait indefinitely, that could take more months or even years. I think I'll go ahead and take care of it myself." Or he could say, "Dean's too much of a psycho to realize it, but the guy damn near killed him last time. If I take care of it, I might be doing him a favor and saving his life" to put it in a way SC might better understand. Dude, believe what you want. We don't need another mrjl situation around here. If you choose to want to see Cena's plight as equal to Dean's, congrats. You can construct whatever narrative you want void of logic and the basics of actual fundamental storytelling for all I care. There's apparently no reasoning with you. I have no idea who or what mrjl is or was. Was he someone who disagreed wtih your point of view? Now let's look at FACTS: I haven't tried to make it "equal" to Ambrose's "plight.:" I have clearly stated more than once that it doesn't have to be equal. NOBODY on earth thinks that way -- you wrong me, I don't care who else you wronged, that's their problem -- if I can make you, you're going to deal with me. That's where Cena is coming from. He's not comparing his situation to Ambrose's and he shouldn't. I can probably name a dozen, maybe even dozens, of feuds where one guy tried to "kill" the other guy and it didn't mean he always had first dibs. Over the course of quite a few unrelated threads you've gone off on this "he tried to murder Ambrose" thing as if (a) he tried to murder Ambrose, like literally kill him (in which case why did he not check his pulse and keep going until the guy was dead, or bring a gun, etc.) and (b) as if that matters. The guy shook it off with "that was cool," so Ambrose clearly, as I have shown you, is no more hot to get his hands on Rollins than he ever was before. That angle didn't start with Ambrose's head going through cinderblocks, it started long before, and Ambrose has done nothing to say, "OK, everything has changed now, I was just trying to stop you from cashing in your briefcase but you tried to kill me now and this is a blood feud that ends when one of us is DEAD." You deciding to impose more meaning on it is something in your interpretation, not in what has been presented to the viewers. As someone else brought up, why should Cena care what Ambrose thinks or what his "claim" on Rollins is? SInce when are these two best buds? Ambrose is out for himself, pretty clearly, and so is Cena. That sounds reasonable to me.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 2, 2014 21:09:15 GMT -5
Dude, believe what you want. We don't need another mrjl situation around here. If you choose to want to see Cena's plight as equal to Dean's, congrats. You can construct whatever narrative you want void of logic and the basics of actual fundamental storytelling for all I care. There's apparently no reasoning with you. I have no idea who or what mrjl is or was. Was he someone who disagreed wtih your point of view? Now let's look at FACTS: I haven't tried to make it "equal" to Ambrose's "plight.:" I have clearly stated more than once that it doesn't have to be equal. NOBODY on earth thinks that way -- you wrong me, I don't care who else you wronged, that's their problem -- if I can make you, you're going to deal with me. That's where Cena is coming from. He's not comparing his situation to Ambrose's and he shouldn't. I can probably name a dozen, maybe even dozens, of feuds where one guy tried to "kill" the other guy and it didn't mean he always had first dibs. Over the course of quite a few unrelated threads you've gone off on this "he tried to murder Ambrose" thing as if (a) he tried to murder Ambrose, like literally kill him (in which case why did he not check his pulse and keep going until the guy was dead, or bring a gun, etc.) and (b) as if that matters. The guy shook it off with "that was cool," so Ambrose clearly, as I have shown you, is no more hot to get his hands on Rollins than he ever was before. That angle didn't start with Ambrose's head going through cinderblocks, it started long before, and Ambrose has done nothing to say, "OK, everything has changed now, I was just trying to stop you from cashing in your briefcase but you tried to kill me now and this is a blood feud that ends when one of us is DEAD." You deciding to impose more meaning on it is something in your interpretation, not in what has been presented to the viewers. As someone else brought up, why should Cena care what Ambrose thinks or what his "claim" on Rollins is? SInce when are these two best buds? Ambrose is out for himself, pretty clearly, and so is Cena. That sounds reasonable to me. mrjl was a poster that was so annoying in his inability to accept when he was wrong that he eventually had to be banned for it. As for your take -- that's your take. You keep using "if I was in this situation" etc. etc. etc. as if that somehow changes the logical imbalance in each character's plight. Your personal view in that case is irrelevant. What you would do means nothing to anyone but you. You are constructing your own narrative and going by your own morals in deciding whether something works or not. I'm not adding my own bias at all. (Believe me; you'd know. My personal bias is that the Cena character is a spoiled, protected idiot who actually deserved to be destroyed by Brock for his arrogance and bravado; and since he couldn't put Brock away in the rematch, he's constructed an excuse to target Seth to make up for his own failures and shortcomings.). But all of that is just stupid head-canon of mine. It means nothing. When I'm speaking of Cena and Dean, I'm trying to just judge the story on how its being literally presented, and their individual issues. I'm going on the fact that one is rife with betrayal and a 1st degree crime attempt, and the other was simply outside interference in a match said guy hasn't even been told was his last chance. I don't care how Cena sees it. Because as its presented Cena is selfish and hypocritical. He's a character who bilks children out of money by peddling a mass-marketed mantra; and he does not even live up to that last credo on his shirt because he figures his particular insignificant revenge attempt is more justified. And that is absolutely absurd.
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