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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Oct 29, 2014 10:48:55 GMT -5
f*** if I was walking for 10 hours I'd be pissed too.
100 plus for 10 hours is about 2 an hour. Honestly some of them are creepy but if you told me attractive girl gets catcalled by men 2 times an hour in NYC I wouldn't be shocked.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 29, 2014 10:58:00 GMT -5
The big problem- and what both sides, whether it's "can I say Hi, Hey Beautiful, etc. to someone" or "Harassment is Harassment", do know is that- harassing language is in the eye of the beholder. Like the people who are saying this is true- you don't get the right to decide what someone else thinks is harassment- if they decide it is, then it is- whether you openly proposition someone on the street or whether you just happened to briefly, accidentally have your eyes meet with them and they didn't want that- If they decided they were harassed, they were harassed. You can't tell someone that they WEREN'T- they get to decide for themselves. That is a fact.
However, THAT'S ALSO WHY STREET HARASSMENT WILL NEVER END, NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY TO STOP IT.
Quite frankly, it IS the fact that street harassment is in the eye of the beholder that makes it impossible to stop, simply because it does depend on their own views of what's harassing them and what isn't. When it's all dependent on how the harassed person feels, there is no way to stop it, simply because whatever they feel was harassment IS harassment, and it's up to the person on the other side to just at least try to be polite and hope for the best.
So- if you're saying you should be allowed to say hi to someone- can you at least agree that you should at least TRY to be polite and show respect to the other person?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 10:59:02 GMT -5
f*** if I was walking for 10 hours I'd be pissed too. 100 plus for 10 hours is about 2 an hour. Honestly some of them are creepy but if you told me attractive girl gets catcalled by men 2 times an hour in NYC I wouldn't be shocked. 2 an hour for 10 hours would be 20, so it's 10 an hour minimum to bring it to 100 over that period of time.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Oct 29, 2014 10:59:38 GMT -5
Thankfully I live in Tokyo now and (unless drunk) guys don't do that here. They just stare... I'm in Korea. That's pretty much the same here. Like really intense stares.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,986
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Post by chazraps on Oct 29, 2014 11:05:44 GMT -5
The big problem- and what both sides, whether it's "can I say Hi, Hey Beautiful, etc. to someone" or "Harassment is Harassment", do know is that- harassing language is in the eye of the beholder. Like the people who are saying this is true- you don't get the right to decide what someone else thinks is harassment- if they decide it is, then it is- whether you openly proposition someone on the street or whether you just happened to briefly, accidentally have your eyes meet with them and they didn't want that- If they decided they were harassed, they were harassed. You can't tell someone that they WEREN'T- they get to decide for themselves. That is a fact. However, THAT'S ALSO WHY STREET HARASSMENT WILL NEVER END, NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY TO STOP IT.Quite frankly, it IS the fact that street harassment is in the eye of the beholder that makes it impossible to stop, simply because it does depend on their own views of what's harassing them and what isn't. When it's all dependent on how the harassed person feels, there is no way to stop it, simply because whatever they feel was harassment IS harassment, and it's up to the person on the other side to just at least try to be polite and hope for the best. That reads like such a cop-out dismissal of a very real problem. Do you think, maybe, the dudes who catcall do so because they've never once considered that it may be the wrong thing to do and are just following by example, but are human enough to see something like this video or to think about how their actions affect others and will think twice? The progress made by human civilization over the past few thousand years leads me to predict so.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Oct 29, 2014 11:08:59 GMT -5
If there’s one thing I think stands out the most, as someone who generally isn’t all that familiar with this kind of issue, it’s that even the supposedly more benign ‘compliments’ like “hey, beautiful” - which isn’t really all that benign, but I honestly see people defending it - or even “have a nice evening” take on a much less innocent tone when they’re being yelled at towards someone who hasn’t even looked at them.
I could understand a quick ‘hello’ (or, my preferred method of greeting someone I don’t know, a slight nod) when you’re passing close by someone and the two people make eye contact or something, but to yell it at someone who hasn’t even acknowledged you? She doesn’t know the people talking her, so why should she need to hear comments from them about her appearance?
The most surprising part of the video was the guy following her for five minutes. What kind of person honestly thinks that’s okay?
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Oct 29, 2014 11:10:49 GMT -5
f*** if I was walking for 10 hours I'd be pissed too. 100 plus for 10 hours is about 2 an hour. Honestly some of them are creepy but if you told me attractive girl gets catcalled by men 2 times an hour in NYC I wouldn't be shocked. 2 an hour for 10 hours would be 20, so it's 10 an hour minimum to bring it to 100 over that period of time. Sorry I woke up extra early today... some how 60 minutes 10 hours and 100 made me do stupid math.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,986
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Post by chazraps on Oct 29, 2014 11:19:47 GMT -5
Why would you just randomly say 'God Bless' to someone? And was one of those guys a priest!? It's short for "God blessed" as in "God blessed you with the way you look." Still street harassment.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 11:20:22 GMT -5
I could understand a quick ‘hello’ (or, my preferred method of greeting someone I don’t know, a slight nod) when you’re passing close by someone and the two people make eye contact or something, but to yell it at someone who hasn’t even acknowledged you? She doesn’t know the people talking her, so why should she need to hear comments from them about her appearance? Exactly. I guess there are people who just assume that if they're giving out complements then people should automatically be appreciative of them - which is an entitled POV if you ask me. I mean, there was a time when you needed an introduction to even address someone in such a forward manner. Which is also why so many women I've talked to say they keep their head down when walking around a busy sidewalk. They don't want to accidently make eye contact because they don't want to be harassed. Think about that. This is a first world country in 2014 and there are women in major cities who still have to avoid eye contact to stop from being harassed on the street by strangers. Honestly, when I hear people defend it with "they're just being nice, they're not harassing anyone" type talk I just think to myself - who are they being nice to? Because "being nice" isn't randomly yelling out stuff to strangers on the street, no matter how you phrase it. I've said it before, but take the gender dynamics out of it and it is still rude as hell and shows extremely poor manners to approach a stranger and randomly yell out "HAVE A GREAT DAY." The sentiment of "have a great day" is all good, but the way they're conveying it isn't.
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Post by fuzzywarble, squat cobbler on Oct 29, 2014 11:21:00 GMT -5
Well...she shouldn't have dressed so suggestively Really hope that's a joke, haha. Well...yea...I hope you can tell
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,949
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Post by Sephiroth on Oct 29, 2014 11:35:36 GMT -5
Perhaps we just need an alternative like civil street language: "I say there fair young lass, you have capital knockers and a lovely derrière! How would you like to procreate?"
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 12:23:08 GMT -5
Man, this sucks. I mean, I'm super outgoing and I live in a super friendly city in Canada. I say hi to lots of people on my way to work, usually because I find it helps me cheer myself up when I'm dragging my butt into the office. I hope I haven't worried anybody. It's usually like, super early in the morning (Still dark) and I'm a big dude. It could really suck for them.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Oct 29, 2014 12:51:56 GMT -5
In summary: don't speak unless spoken to. Learn to keep your eyes in your head. This. I don't interact with people unless they seem interested in it. Though I'm not above flashing a smile if someone walks by and smiles at me.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Oct 29, 2014 13:05:25 GMT -5
Let me get this straight.
Am I supposed to just walk in public and not say hi to anyone? Keep my mouth shut? My head down?
That's not realistic and yet, that's what I do.
I see this video as nothing more than people complaining about something that they can't change. Passing laws will not stop catcallers.
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Post by MGH on Oct 29, 2014 13:06:10 GMT -5
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 29, 2014 13:12:22 GMT -5
The big problem- and what both sides, whether it's "can I say Hi, Hey Beautiful, etc. to someone" or "Harassment is Harassment", do know is that- harassing language is in the eye of the beholder. Like the people who are saying this is true- you don't get the right to decide what someone else thinks is harassment- if they decide it is, then it is- whether you openly proposition someone on the street or whether you just happened to briefly, accidentally have your eyes meet with them and they didn't want that- If they decided they were harassed, they were harassed. You can't tell someone that they WEREN'T- they get to decide for themselves. That is a fact. However, THAT'S ALSO WHY STREET HARASSMENT WILL NEVER END, NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY TO STOP IT.Quite frankly, it IS the fact that street harassment is in the eye of the beholder that makes it impossible to stop, simply because it does depend on their own views of what's harassing them and what isn't. When it's all dependent on how the harassed person feels, there is no way to stop it, simply because whatever they feel was harassment IS harassment, and it's up to the person on the other side to just at least try to be polite and hope for the best. That reads like such a cop-out dismissal of a very real problem. Do you think, maybe, the dudes who catcall do so because they've never once considered that it may be the wrong thing to do and are just following by example, but are human enough to see something like this video or to think about how their actions affect others and will think twice? The progress made by human civilization over the past few thousand years leads me to predict so. The problem is that there isn't a set definition of what street harassment is. If you ask 10,000 women, they'll probably give you 4,000 different criteria or definitions of what they feel harassed by. If you leave it up to interpretation then there will be very little progress that can be made on the borderline cases. I do think we all agree the extreme cases like stalking a girl or staring at her cleavage and asking for phone numbers are acts that should be stop, but as seen by this thread not every action is that black or white. There are a lot of cases in the grey area that women probably differ in and what they are offend by and that's fine. If a woman doesn't want any person to talk to her on the street that's perfectly cool and she has every right to want that, but her definition of what harassment is may not apply to Sally who is down the street to me and that's a key issue here. I'll use an example of racial discrimination at the workplace. There are probably some African American workers who don't care if their boss uses the N-Word around them as long as they get their good pay checks. To them it doesn't bother them one bit. To others this can be highly offensive act by their boss. Neither of them are wrong because that's how they view the issue. Now the government made laws to try to fix this issue and leave as little interpretation as possible by setting up their criteria for racial discrimination to alert both parties what qualifies as what. This won't happen for street harassment because it will be difficult to enforce any rules on the borderline calls. The policy staffs don't have the manpower to patrol every street to make sure no non extreme street harassment takes place. Plus I just don't think people will change even with awareness. This isn't some new issue and usually the people doing this are the elderly or people of lower economic history (As shown by the video) and those usually aren't the people who will be first in line to learn new information on what they are doing wrong. Now I'm not going to say this charity is useless and it has probably done some good in it's time but I think it will just be smarter to focus on the bigger issue of respecting everybody. This donation is focussing more on the micro section of this topic but the bigger picture is people need to learn to respect each other and I think that's where the main focus should go. TLDR: Little overall progress will be made until the government creates laws that set the definition of what constitutes harassment and that probably isn't happening anytime soon.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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Post by Dub H on Oct 29, 2014 13:16:29 GMT -5
That is just disgusting,you have to wonder what kind of stuff goes through people mind to say that stuff over the video,are they THAT offended that man are being show to be assholes. The part that says “Unfortunately, the behavior that we see on the streets, we also see online,” is wrong...the online behavior is much worse ,as it shows.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 13:31:19 GMT -5
Wait, so because the government can't/won't institute laws to curb that type of cat-calling and harassment we as dudes can't take it upon ourselves to self-censor and curb that shit when we see it?
Ain't nobody telling you to throw hands, though let's be real, that might be what it comes down to because some guys take great offense to being told you probably shouldn't say just anything to women (just recently a guy did get killed over stepping in when a woman got harassed). But our hands aren't tied and there's a lot of things dudes usually won't do to other dudes when we say something...you know, like follow us home or kill us.
It's not like women are just waiting to waylay some poor unsuspecting dude because he tipped his fedora at her.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 13:40:32 GMT -5
I don't say this a lot, but this is one of those issues that can actually be salved by spreading awareness.
You really can't legislate "being a better human being" most of the time, but you can make people aware of the problem and make it known that this affects people in ways they probably don't realize.
Coming back around to the video in the OP, the whole idea behind this "hollaback" organization appears to be just that.
I mean, just based on the reaction to the video both here and other places online there are still plenty of people who arent' fully aware of this kind of stuff.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 29, 2014 13:42:48 GMT -5
Wait, so because the government can't/won't institute laws to curb that type of cat-calling and harassment we as dudes can't take it upon ourselves to self-censor and curb that shit when we see it? The government needs to give a definition of it because nobody here has a qualified one. Unless you can poll and ask every women in the U.S.A what their definition of street harassment is and get them to agree to a consensus, the law enforcement one is the next best thing. This is charity's mission isn't to stop street harassment in a small area like a mile in Manhattan, they have nation wide aspirations and they aren't going too much of a dent without the government's assistance. And people like us have moral compasses to tell us what we should and shouldn't say, but there are plenty of people who have little morals instilled in them and will keep doing this. And they aren't going to stop just because a man tells them what they are doing is gross. They are way pass that stage of punishment in their lives. Unless the government tells us what street harassment is, there way of enforcing it and what the repercussions will be if you break the law, then street harassment will live on. I don't say this a lot, but this is one of those issues that can actually be salved by spreading awareness. You really can't legislate "being a better human being" most of the time, but you can make people aware of the problem and make it known that this affects people in ways they probably don't realize. Coming back around to the video in the OP, the whole idea behind this "hollaback" organization appears to be just that. I mean, just based on the reaction to the video both here and other places online there are still plenty of people who arent' fully aware of this kind of stuff. Right awareness does help but without actually giving a reputable definition of it, it's not going to do much good. It's pretty pointless to operantly conditionally punish someone without telling them the list of things they can't do beforehand. And due to the cultural difference and absolutely difficulty in getting a consensus about this in any type of large group, it will be very tough to get a set definition most women can agree with.
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