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Post by eDemento2099 on Oct 31, 2014 12:38:33 GMT -5
Yes, someone should be standing still (at the very least!) before you approach them to strike up a conversation. Otherwise they are trying to get somewhere. They are in motion because they have a life and an agenda that extends beyond social interaction at that moment and deciding that what YOU have to say is more important than them trying to get where they want to go is inconsiderate. Its like expecting someone to pull over on the highway just so you can talk to them. Okay, so where exactly is it acceptable for a guy to try to befriend a woman he finds attractive but doesn't know well? The obvious answer seems like "Your advances will be unwelcome unless she actually knows you," but how do you facilitate that familiarity if everyone is so afraid of people they don't know? The answer that comes to mind is 'don't talk to strangers. Talk to people you know." That's kind of a chicken and egg dilemma. How do I get to know people? Mainly through work and school, but seeking romantic attention in those settings is ill advised because of the awkwardness that can arise from having to regularly be around people who rejected you or dumped you (Hence the phrase 'Don't s*** where you eat.'). A lot of people talk about going to bars and pubs, but I've never felt comfortable doing that - partly because I have low self esteem, and partly because I was too poor to go to those establishments as a young adult, so I imagine I'd stand out like a sore thumb going to those places at my age with no experience to draw on. If you go to specific places like libraries or shopping malls or gyms, people are there for a purpose, and trying to talk to them distracts them from their purpose - just as talking to a person walking down the street distracts them as they 'walk past' you to wherever they're going, as you put it. Most people are always doing something; the only time people are totally idle is when they're resting, and even that is purposeful. I don't behave like the men in the video. When I see someone attractive walking down the street, I never say anything to them, because I assume they'll think I'm a creep. The men in the video had the guts to go after something they wanted. They acted on something that even I know: if you don't objectively seek something or someone you want - be it a partner, a job, fitness, happiness, etc. - he/she/it isn't likely to just fall into your lap (I should know, given the limited number of relationships I've been in). I am trying to understand what they did wrong, because even though I don't aspire to be like them, what I've done clearly hasn't worked, and insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Very few women have tried to initiate relationships with me because of obvious gendered expectations pertaining to courtship. Dating websites are an utter waste of time. No matter how much a guy may have in common with women and no matter how tactfully he messages them, they're unlikely to answer him, let alone set up a date with the express purpose of becoming better acquainted (and possibly more). Yeah, yeah, we all know that the ratio of men to women on those things is way off balance, but it seems like most women who use dating sites do so to derive an easy, safe ego boost from knowing that they've caught someone's eye and/or seemed likable to him. The vast majority of them appear totally insincere when they advertise themselves as available and/or actively seeking romantic partners. Lest you think I'm trolling, I will - in all sincerity - echo what Digital Witness said earlier in this thread: I can't even really fathom the situation in the video.
Hell, half the time I'm walking along a street I feel creepy even making eye contact. God forbid I actually speak as well.
I'm getting a sort of affirmation from this video that one on one communication with strangers in public is absolutely terrible and should be avoided at all costs. Especially if they're the opposite sex.Dave the Dave said " Man or woman, you should be treated well. You can talk to people, but don't be a dick/creep. It boils down to just being a good person or not. I hope eventually most people fall into the former." In my experience, treating women in that manner has yielded few - if any - lady friends. Admittedly, when I was in school, I was a very serious student and didn't go out partying (again, I was dirt poor and could barely even afford tuition). Now that school is behind me, I spend almost all of my time working. Being civil and mindful of the fact that people might think I'm a creep, psycho, or pervert if I say hello to them on the street is not facilitating many relationships. In fact, I'm fairly lonely and could use more friends. This isn't a matter of appearance: I look normal and about as good - if not a little better - than most men my age. I am in much better shape than most of them, I work out, I eat healthy, I groom myself, and I wear modest clothes - nothing too flashy, but nothing raggedy unless I'm engaged in manual labour.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 12:57:29 GMT -5
eDemento2099You're taking it to an extreme degree. "Never talk to strangers." No one is saying that. The number of places where you can engage someone socially is fairly wide open. Its not just bars and pubs. I don't drink and didn't in school either and had no problem meeting people to be social with. Get involved in community service activities, take a class, learn a hobby, etc etc. There's tons of places to meet people, build/share common interest and then try to engage them romantically. Or go to social gatherings - not every party has a cover charge and two drink minimum. You're thinking of relationships as "i initiate or she initiates," but while that does happen in some ways, its actually mutual more often than not. People have lives, man. They go about their day and have goals and objectives beyond "meet new people." The men in that video weren't brave or gutsy, just inconsiderate of the other person. Cold calling someone like that takes immeasurable social skill, grace and poise - none of which those guys had. Those guys didn't take 2 extra seconds to see that she was obviously trying to get somewhere. They looked up, saw she was pretty and didn't think one iota beyond that - which is inconsiderate. And why should a woman give a guy the time of day when they're not being the least bit considerate?
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 31, 2014 13:12:35 GMT -5
Just to make it clear,she does no get harassed 108 times in the video. But there is a disclaimer that says so .But man if there was 108 instances in the time duration of the video,that would be something else. Maybe not sexual harrassment. But I'd call someone trying to get my attention as I'm walking down the street harassment. Whether it be a street preacher, homeless person or what have you. It certainly feels like harassment when they have zero business interacting with me in the first place. I'm not walking down the street to be social - I'm trying to get somewhere. I wouldn't qualify as harassment unless they get REALLY aggressive or don't let it go. Rude and disrespectful,yes.But i would not say harassment.(I would say Catcalls could arrive in harassment territory)
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Post by Lazy peon on Oct 31, 2014 13:13:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 13:18:35 GMT -5
Maybe not sexual harrassment. But I'd call someone trying to get my attention as I'm walking down the street harassment. Whether it be a street preacher, homeless person or what have you. It certainly feels like harassment when they have zero business interacting with me in the first place. I'm not walking down the street to be social - I'm trying to get somewhere. I wouldn't qualify as harassment unless they get REALLY aggressive or don't let it go. Rude and disrespectful,yes.But i would not say harassment.(I would say Catcalls could arrive in harassment territory) To each their own. If someone came to me and said a stranger was treating them rudely and disrespectfully for no reason - I'd say calling that harassment wouldn't be too far out in left field. Especially when its likely done repeatedly throughout the day from various people. But yeah, to each their own.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 31, 2014 13:43:48 GMT -5
Interesting discussion. This video spoke to me in a sense because I consider myself an independent, self-sufficient woman who can look after herself but certainly there have been occasions in my life on the street where I've felt unwanted attention and thus extremely vulnerable. No matter how independent a woman is, the majority of men will be much stronger than her. Just like well-built, strong men will be a threat to smaller men.
Unfortunately, a few bad experiences with a tiny minority of men who think they own women and can treat them how they like means women become distrustful. It's not a mistrust of men or turning men into villains, but a mistrust of strangers. In my own experience, every man I've ever known personally would protect a woman and treat her with respect as they would a man. It's the fact that these people are strangers that the issue comes in.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 31, 2014 13:51:49 GMT -5
Heck, she gets catcalled 108 times in the video, but think about how many people you'd walk by in Manhattan in a given day; 108 is a small percentage. But it's still REALLY frequent for any person who has to deal with it. Just to make it clear,she does no get harassed 108 times in the video. But there is a disclaimer that says so .But man if there was 108 instances in the time duration of the video,that would be something else. Ha, touche; 108 in the 10 hours. Still, six per minute, yikes. People selling bootleg DVDs or whatever on the street are harassing, too, to a large extent; I guess the main difference here is that people doing that (or crazy street preachers, or whatever like that) tend not to do it as much in a gendered way, since they tend to annoy everybody.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 14:12:11 GMT -5
Interesting discussion. This video spoke to me in a sense because I consider myself an independent, self-sufficient woman who can look after herself but certainly there have been occasions in my life on the street where I've felt unwanted attention and thus extremely vulnerable. No matter how independent a woman is, the majority of men will be much stronger than her. Just like well-built, strong men will be a threat to smaller men. Unfortunately, a few bad experiences with a tiny minority of men who think they own women and can treat them how they like means women become distrustful. It's not a mistrust of men or turning men into villains, but a mistrust of strangers. In my own experience, every man I've ever known personally would protect a woman and treat her with respect as they would a man. It's the fact that these people are strangers that the issue comes in. I don't trust strangers either. Even though I have no experience with sexual harassment, I despise panhandlers and bootleg hawkers because they have harassed me (and they harass pretty much everyone, as HMark just pointed out). At best, they're annoying, and at worst, they will physically threaten or harm someone who refuses to be an easy mark for their bullshit. This thread has informed me that many of the people posting in this thread have limited real-world interpersonal skills. To anyone who thinks it's okay to just go up to a random passer-by and start saying things to them, no, it's really not. Socialization between two people in real space is a mutual interaction. Interaction is preceded by the dropping of social cues. For example: I go into a store, pick up some items, and go up to the register, initiating eye contact with the clerk. At a cash register, even if I don't make eye contact (which is extremely impolite, but just throwing that out there as a hypothetical), it is obligatory for the clerk and customer to interact on some basis, since dialogue is how the transaction is completed. There may or may not be small talk. There doesn't need to be, but there's nothing off-kilter about it. When exiting dialogue with a person, there is exchange of closing pleasantries. "Have a nice day" or "Good night" or "Goodbye" or whatever. The clerk's job is to entreat my presence. My legal obligation is to talk to them to complete the transaction. I can't just take it and go. I'd be stealing. When walking on a sidewalk, not looking at anyone, no social cues are being dropped by the woman in this video. She is doing nothing to invite dialogue or interaction with anyone. She's going about her business. If she were asking for help with something, or holding a sign inviting people to talk to her? Sure. That'd be fine. But trying to interact with a stranger who is not inviting attention when you don't have anything else to say to them is, quite frankly, pretty rude. It's a waste of their time. And anyone who thinks that they need to reciprocate is absolutely being self-centered. ...the fact that so many people (especially in the comments on Youtube) don't understand this is really frightening.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 14:16:58 GMT -5
@mightykretzler Yeah, I get the feeling that a lot of people's problem with this video may just boil down to, "I don't have good interpersonal skills - how else am I supposed to interact with people?!!?"
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Oct 31, 2014 14:17:24 GMT -5
Yes, someone should be standing still (at the very least!) before you approach them to strike up a conversation. Otherwise they are trying to get somewhere. They are in motion because they have a life and an agenda that extends beyond social interaction at that moment and deciding that what YOU have to say is more important than them trying to get where they want to go is inconsiderate. Its like expecting someone to pull over on the highway just so you can talk to them. Okay, so where exactly is it acceptable for a guy to try to befriend a woman he finds attractive but doesn't know well? Not on the f***ing street when she's on her way to do something.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 14:23:12 GMT -5
Okay, so where exactly is it acceptable for a guy to try to befriend a woman he finds attractive but doesn't know well? Not on the f***ing street when she's on her way to do something. haha! Yeah. I've met ZERO girlfriends by stopping someone on the street. One I met in an acting class I was taking for fun - outside of college. Another I met through a roommate. Before that we were involved in similar social/community service organization. Before that we actually worked at the same place, but in different sections of the workplace. (which isn't as awkward as everyone makes it out to be if you can behave like reasonable, mature adults). Before that I was in a music class with a girl. It goes on and on like that. I mean, I'm pretty vanilla and squaresy when it comes to this kind of stuff, now that I think about it, but the point is the options of places/times to meet people is only limited by you and your lifestyle.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 31, 2014 14:27:49 GMT -5
Not on the f***ing street when she's on her way to do something. haha! Yeah. I've met ZERO girlfriends by stopping someone on the street. One I met in an acting class I was taking for fun - outside of college. Another I met through a roommate. Before that we were involved in similar social/community service organization. Before that we actually worked at the same place, but in different sections of the workplace. (which isn't as awkward as everyone makes it out to be if you can behave like reasonable, mature adults). Before that I was in a music class with a girl. It goes on and on like that. I mean, I'm pretty vanilla and squaresy when it comes to this kind of stuff, now that I think about it, but the point is the options of places/times to meet people is only limited by you and your lifestyle.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 14:29:08 GMT -5
@mightykretzler Yeah, I get the feeling that a lot of people's problem with this video may just boil down to, "I don't have good interpersonal skills - how else am I supposed to interact with people?!!?" I think it's that, and I think it's big question marks about courtship in general. Asking a person out when you don't know anything about them isn't a good choice anyway. Now if a guy and a girl are in a nightclub and are obviously trying to hook up, then sure. The point is sex, not anything meaningful. And again, social cues. Single people don't usually go to a nightclub to just look at the pretty lights and listen to music. Sometimes they do, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong about declaring your intentions in that context (tactfully, of course) because that's a universally-appropriate setting. But if I'm looking for someone to court, for a meaningful relationship, why am I going to ask out someone who I know nothing about? We might have diametrically opposed moral, ethical or religious beliefs. We may agree on just about nothing. But if I talk to someone who previous social cues have opened up a pleasant way to deal with, and we get along great, taking the next step and asking them out isn't a bad thing. They might not be so keen on the idea, but hey. At least I was polite about it. That's always risky, of course, but the real kicker is that it's someone with mutual interests. And if the interests are mutual, and they are interested in you, then they'll probably be dropping more cues for you to move on, which will then make the whole thing much easier. And if someone doesn't have the interest in me to drop those cues and give those signs, then the whole thing is obviously not meant to be, and I can get on with my life. Not that complicated. At least, I don't think it is, but I could be missing something.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 31, 2014 15:27:40 GMT -5
Just to make it clear,she does no get harassed 108 times in the video. But there is a disclaimer that says so .But man if there was 108 instances in the time duration of the video,that would be something else. Ha, touche; 108 in the 10 hours. Still, six per minute, yikes. People selling bootleg DVDs or whatever on the street are harassing, too, to a large extent; I guess the main difference here is that people doing that (or crazy street preachers, or whatever like that) tend not to do it as much in a gendered way, since they tend to annoy everybody. 0.2 per minute actually Sory sorry,now i'm just being a douche,your yikes still stands.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 15:43:48 GMT -5
Y'all are a lot more...something...than I am.
Some people over here talking about "Well, how can I say hi then?" The point is to leave 'em alone.
It's not wrong for me nor anybody else to not give a shit about answering that question, is it? As long as the point gets through that at the very least you don't do it like this.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 31, 2014 16:10:13 GMT -5
I don't talk to people on the streets young or old unless they start up the conversation. Just not my style, the most I do is a smirk or a smile. I don't get these people who do cat calls but nothing I can really do to stop all of them.
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Post by Next Level was WRONG on Oct 31, 2014 16:19:01 GMT -5
I'd love to get a play by play from people as which greetings in the video they thought were and weren't harassment. I got 4 or 5 that were'nt creepy.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 31, 2014 17:13:23 GMT -5
I'd love to get a play by play from people as which greetings in the video they thought were and weren't harassment. I got 4 or 5 that were'nt creepy. Catch is, we don't get to choose which ones qualify as "creepy". It's not for us to say.
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