"Magic" Mark Hurr
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Here, have some chili dogs
Not related to Phantasmo
Posts: 15,764
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Oct 30, 2014 9:48:14 GMT -5
Ok. To all of that's being said, what about the men and women who just aren't mentally stable enough to accept a "social correction" of the behaviors that develop into actions people find offensive or acts of sexual abuse?
And also there is a part of this that is big business and ways of life for people. Not saying it's right but it is real.
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Post by RedSmile on Oct 30, 2014 9:56:47 GMT -5
The really really really sad thing about this video, is that it is merely just the tip of the iceberg. A sliver of the tip of the iceberg.
There are places in this world where this lady would have been arrested and branded as a "harlot" and "stoned to death", whipped, or jailed.
While in other places, she would have been in danger of being kidnapped and sold into sex slavery.
In our own country(ies) and aside from the behavior in this video:
We have women being raped in their dorm rooms.
On the internet we have people leak nude photographs of many female celebrities.
We routinely hear of people in positions of power, abusing their authority; elected officials (ex: Bill Clinton), school teachers, pro athletes (ex: Brett Favre), policemen, CEOs of businesses, etc... all mistreating women in all manner of ways. Setting a nice example.
We have a video game industry that has no f***ing idea how to treat/feature women, and when called out on it, then they send "death threats" to women and critics.
Name one thing in pop culture not promoted with tits and ass. Look at women's presentation in wrestling, music, television, fast food, Miller Lite, Hollywood, NFL football, NASCAR. Does your local news station employ a "hot chick"? "Hot chicks" have adorned hot rod magazines, high school lockers, bedroom walls, billboards, and the nose of Air Force planes. Do I really need to keep going, here?
We, as a society, have spent YEARS, nay, CENTURIES presenting women as objects, and then seem surprised when we see them treated as objects or as livestock. Because whistling, grunting, and shouting is how we to talk to livestock.
In sum, again, this is a bigger issue than presented in this video. It is a monstrous issue. It is, in my opinion, a global societal failure. A failure of humanity as a whole. To fix it, would require MAJOR cultural, ethical, and moral shifts. A realization of what we are doing and why it is poor human behavior.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Oct 30, 2014 10:02:43 GMT -5
I know it's vaguely mocking the original video, but I found this rather amusing (Apologies if it's already been posted, only just refreshed this tab and found it's jumped forwards 7 pages since I last checked!)
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 30, 2014 10:21:35 GMT -5
But I don't think that is what you meant. Where as other people I've seen on the interent (and I have seen serious feminists out right calling men "crybabies" for suggesting maybe they don't have it great either) are the ones I take umbrage with. Interesting way to phrase it because more often than not I've seen more men act incredulously at the idea of male rape/domestic abuse than I have women. Feminists I've run into in my life generally accept that male rape exists. Though to be fair **puts on snobby glasses** most of them were well-read feminists who actually studied the subject on an academic level and not just pop stars or random people who put it in their twitter profile. **takes off snobby glasses** But on a wider scale I think you're going to have a harder time convincing other men that male rape/etc exists because women have more familiarity with the subject. Also due to societal pressures of "machismo" and, as evidenced by the comments regarding this video, there are plenty of men who don't even believe it really happens to women so how are they EVER going to believe it happens to men. Especially with the whole "I'll take what I can get attitude" that gets thrown around. But I agree, the problem becomes when you try to paint either gender as the villain instead of finding a way to work together to try and make things better. I think a lot of our opinions are formed by the people we know. A lot of my male friends are actually MORE about women's rights than even my girlfriend so they're very dismissive of the notion that it is an issue for anyone but women. BUT I do understand that the issue is and should mostly be about women. I just get mad when people try to make either side the bad guy. And despite my writing abilities I have a hard time getting my thoughts on this issue out because I do support it 100% but I have issues with the way it is handled at times. Thanks for the articulate response. I appreciate getting something to think about.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 30, 2014 10:27:45 GMT -5
Interesting way to phrase it because more often than not I've seen more men act incredulously at the idea of male rape/domestic abuse than I have women. Feminists I've run into in my life generally accept that male rape exists. Though to be fair **puts on snobby glasses** most of them were well-read feminists who actually studied the subject on an academic level and not just pop stars or random people who put it in their twitter profile. **takes off snobby glasses** But on a wider scale I think you're going to have a harder time convincing other men that male rape/etc exists because women have more familiarity with the subject. Also due to societal pressures of "machismo" and, as evidenced by the comments regarding this video, there are plenty of men who don't even believe it really happens to women so how are they EVER going to believe it happens to men. Especially with the whole "I'll take what I can get attitude" that gets thrown around. But I agree, the problem becomes when you try to paint either gender as the villain instead of finding a way to work together to try and make things better. I think a lot of our opinions are formed by the people we know. A lot of my male friends are actually MORE about women's rights than even my girlfriend so they're very dismissive of the notion that it is an issue for anyone but women. BUT I do understand that the issue is and should mostly be about women. I just get mad when people try to make either side the bad guy. And despite my writing abilities I have a hard time getting my thoughts on this issue out because I do support it 100% but I have issues with the way it is handled at times. Thanks for the articulate response. I appreciate getting something to think about. I hear you, dude; again, I think if you talk to the vast majority of people who are activists on issues like this, you'll see they have no desire to make villains out of an entire half of the population. It can definitely sound like that if people are letting off steam after a lot of frustration while dealing with the issue, but the real message, I've always felt, is that activists much prefer allies in the fight against whichever societal ill they're seeking to tackle.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 30, 2014 10:36:53 GMT -5
Glad you hear me. And I KNOW that most people aren't like this. Just like the men's rights thing, I'm not saying it is the biggest problem. I'm just venting about the people I see handling it poorly. I know activists want people on their side. That's the whole point.
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Post by Long A, Short A on Oct 30, 2014 16:15:24 GMT -5
I think something is missing in this - it's not the words, it's the motivation behind saying them. It wasn't just to be friendly, otherwise they'd be saying it to everyone they saw. They're saying it specifically to her because she's a woman/they find her attractive/etc. You can tell the difference between someone being friendly and someone saying it because they think you're good looking. Now, is saying things like "have a good evening" (which, what? you close a conversation with that, not say it randomly to someone on the street) alarming in the sense of "This person is definitely going to leap out and rape me?" No, it's not. But she knows why he said it, HE knows why he said it, and that can make it uncomfortable for someone. Some of the other people...yowza. *THEY* were creepy and/or somewhat aggressive. Great points. When you have to deal with street harassment you learn what motivates men to say what they say and you learn when you can't take innocuous greetings at face value. I learned this in high school. Some dude had said hi to me in the hall and I said hi back to be nice. That boy took my niceness as an invitation to comment on my body, follow half way around the school, and grab a big old handful of what my daddy gave me. That wasn't the last time I was harassed just because I followed simple social graces. So I don't blame the woman in that video or any other woman for not taking a simple greeting for what it is.
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Post by King Boo on Oct 30, 2014 16:24:32 GMT -5
I think something is missing in this - it's not the words, it's the motivation behind saying them. It wasn't just to be friendly, otherwise they'd be saying it to everyone they saw. They're saying it specifically to her because she's a woman/they find her attractive/etc. You can tell the difference between someone being friendly and someone saying it because they think you're good looking. Now, is saying things like "have a good evening" (which, what? you close a conversation with that, not say it randomly to someone on the street) alarming in the sense of "This person is definitely going to leap out and rape me?" No, it's not. But she knows why he said it, HE knows why he said it, and that can make it uncomfortable for someone. Some of the other people...yowza. *THEY* were creepy and/or somewhat aggressive. Great points. When you have to deal with street harassment you learn what motivates men to say what they say and you learn when you can't take innocuous greetings at face value. I learned this in high school. Some dude had said hi to me in the hall and I said hi back to be nice. That boy took my niceness as an invitation to comment on my body, follow half way around the school, and grab a big old handful of what my daddy gave me. That wasn't the last time I was harassed just because I followed simple social graces. So I don't blame the woman in that video or any other woman for not taking a simple greeting for what it is. That's horrible. It's just another example of why you basically become conditioned to be careful about these types of things, because you don't know when someone acting seemingly normal will fly off the handle at you. I hate that we have to think like that, but I think it's better to be cognizant of these types of things and properly prepared than just shrugging off something that could ultimately get you hurt.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Posts: 37,299
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 30, 2014 16:30:16 GMT -5
Just saw this...jesus.
(paraphrasing) "I just acknowledged your good looks, why aren't you paying attention to me?!"
That's a terrifying mindset.
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Post by RedSmile on Oct 30, 2014 19:26:31 GMT -5
These are actions in broad daylight. Just imagine what these clowns are like behind closed doors, or on the internet. Not one bit of understanding on what proper respect is. Shameful.
You ever wonder how and why women get 100s of messages a day on social media or dating sites? This is how and why.
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J is Justice
Wade Wilson
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Posts: 28,423
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Post by J is Justice on Oct 30, 2014 22:41:21 GMT -5
I know it's vaguely mocking the original video, but I found this rather amusing (Apologies if it's already been posted, only just refreshed this tab and found it's jumped forwards 7 pages since I last checked!) I knew someone would do this.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Oct 30, 2014 23:58:26 GMT -5
"Have a nice evening" "Hello" "Good morning" All this harrassment. It's awful To call those sayings (and the way they were said) harassment is to debase the meaning of the word. I'm shy when it comes to speaking to girls I don't know because I worry that even saying 'hi' and trying to strike up a conversation with them will incite them to flip out and accuse me of being a pervert, a harasser, etc. Not only do those accusations hurt emotionally, but they can harm my reputation or even lead to physical harm if a bystander uncritically sides with the woman and takes her accusation as an invitation to scrap with me. Because our society expects men to initiate relationships with women (and not the vice-versa), it shouldn't come as a surprise that I haven't had many lady friends or romantic partners. Nice (conscientious) guys finish last. Maybe if I gave less a crap about whether women thought I was worthy to initiate conversations with them, I'd have more of a history to speak of. Same goes for not caring whether I'd offend their sensibilities by throwing out innocent conversation starters like "Hey, I really like the way you styled your hair" or even "What do you think about the bus system in town?" I don't feel nearly as worried when it comes to talking to other men on the street about something in the news or the weather because I've never had a man flip out and accuse me of harassment the way the person/people behind said video did. I feel a lot more at ease telling a guy I don't know that like the design on his t-shirt than I do saying the same thing to girl that I don't know.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Oct 31, 2014 0:03:52 GMT -5
It's important to realize that a lot of women will end up getting harassed pretty badly on a regularly basis, so it would be right for them to assume that you would be doing the same thing, even though you have the best of intentions. That doesn't make it right for them to lump all men in the same boat - it just makes it easier to empathize with their reason for (over)generalizing and discriminating on the basis of sex. What they're doing is no more correct than men assuming that all women are 'gold diggers' whose deceptive tactics disqualify them from respect.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 0:45:51 GMT -5
It's important to realize that a lot of women will end up getting harassed pretty badly on a regularly basis, so it would be right for them to assume that you would be doing the same thing, even though you have the best of intentions. That doesn't make it right for them to lump all men in the same boat - it just makes it easier to empathize with their reason for (over)generalizing and discriminating on the basis of sex. What they're doing is no more correct than men assuming that all women are 'gold diggers' whose deceptive tactics disqualify them from respect. Not the same at all. If women were constantly gold digging to the point a guy couldn't walk down the street without 20 women an hour trying to coherece money out of them, you'd have a better argument. And they're not lumping ALL men into that category. Just those who haven't figured out there's a time and place for interacting with people. Shouting "have a great day!!!" while someone is trying to just walk past you isn't it.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Oct 31, 2014 1:37:35 GMT -5
That doesn't make it right for them to lump all men in the same boat - it just makes it easier to empathize with their reason for (over)generalizing and discriminating on the basis of sex. What they're doing is no more correct than men assuming that all women are 'gold diggers' whose deceptive tactics disqualify them from respect. Not the same at all. If women were constantly gold digging to the point a guy couldn't walk down the street without 20 women an hour trying to coherece money out of them, you'd have a better argument. It's still sexist discrimination/generalizing just the same. That's a good point, but by saying that she was 'walking past' every person she encountered on the street, you frame the situation from the standpoint that she was being harassed by everyone around her and walking away from them (The phrase "Walking past" suggests that she was evading them). Consider the frame of reference. From the point of view of most of those men, they saw a woman they found attractive, said something innocent like "Hi there" or "Good morning," and saw her continue walking without acknowledging them. Does a woman have to be standing completely still in broad daylight for it to be acceptable for a man who finds her attractive to say 'hi' and attempt to start a conversation with her, or would even that be considered 'harassment'?
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
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Post by Dub H on Oct 31, 2014 2:25:20 GMT -5
I know it's vaguely mocking the original video, but I found this rather amusing (Apologies if it's already been posted, only just refreshed this tab and found it's jumped forwards 7 pages since I last checked!) I knew someone would do this. I know it is a joke,but i WISH half of those thing would actually happen to me while i walk the streets:P Why can't people offer me job when they see me on the street
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 31, 2014 5:51:02 GMT -5
Not the same at all. If women were constantly gold digging to the point a guy couldn't walk down the street without 20 women an hour trying to coherece money out of them, you'd have a better argument. It's still sexist discrimination/generalizing just the same. That's a good point, but by saying that she was 'walking past' every person she encountered on the street, you frame the situation from the standpoint that she was being harassed by everyone around her and walking away from them (The phrase "Walking past" suggests that she was evading them). Consider the frame of reference. From the point of view of most of those men, they saw a woman they found attractive, said something innocent like "Hi there" or "Good morning," and saw her continue walking without acknowledging them. Does a woman have to be standing completely still in broad daylight for it to be acceptable for a man who finds her attractive to say 'hi' and attempt to start a conversation with her, or would even that be considered 'harassment'? Look again at the video, and look at what her expression is the entire time; to me, that's a hugely important part of all of this. She clearly has an expression on that doesn't exactly scream "come talk to me, please". She isn't making eye contact with any of these guys. She's staring straight ahead, plain expression on, yet tons of guys, even guys who give seemingly innocuous greetings like "Good evening" or whatever are still trying to initiate conversation with her as she simply walks around minding her own business. Typically, most strangers don't interact with one another in public unless they've been given a reason to (e.g. one person holds a door open for another, something like that), but she's having people interact with her even with a completely expressionless face. This is something a lot of women feel they have no choice but to do; as said before, a lot of girls learn early on in life that if you greet a strange guy who's simply said "Hello!" to you back, he'll often take it as an invitation to start chatting her up, asking for her number, or, unfortunately, sometimes far worse things. Maybe plenty of the guys are just saying "hi" totally innocently, but unfortunately she can't deal with every single guy who says something to her with an individual "is THIS guy trying to hit on me now?" analysis. Now, obviously, having somebody ask for your number isn't the end of the world, but it highlights a key difference in the public experiences of men and women, that women effectively need a "strategy" when just walking around town to deal with guys deciding that now is a great time to start chatting her up. We guys really don't need to deal with that. And no, she doesn't have to be standing completely still...because you probably shouldn't go chat her up then, either. There's a time and a place; if you wouldn't interact with a guy in a given situation, then don't interact with a woman. Out at a bar or something? Different story, since those are places where socialization is much more expected (though it's still, sadly, often done in a very uncomfortable way). I do agree the standard we have that men need to initiate all conversation with women is harmful to both genders, but I'd also appreciate avoiding the "not all men" thing, since nobody was saying that all men do this stuff. Heck, she gets catcalled 108 times in the video, but think about how many people you'd walk by in Manhattan in a given day; 108 is a small percentage. But it's still REALLY frequent for any person who has to deal with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 8:36:25 GMT -5
Not the same at all. If women were constantly gold digging to the point a guy couldn't walk down the street without 20 women an hour trying to coherece money out of them, you'd have a better argument. It's still sexist discrimination/generalizing just the same. That's a good point, but by saying that she was 'walking past' every person she encountered on the street, you frame the situation from the standpoint that she was being harassed by everyone around her and walking away from them (The phrase "Walking past" suggests that she was evading them). Consider the frame of reference. From the point of view of most of those men, they saw a woman they found attractive, said something innocent like "Hi there" or "Good morning," and saw her continue walking without acknowledging them. Does a woman have to be standing completely still in broad daylight for it to be acceptable for a man who finds her attractive to say 'hi' and attempt to start a conversation with her, or would even that be considered 'harassment'? Yes to all that. They clearly saw her walking past them, too. It was fairly obvious. The amount of time it would take them to register she was even attractive they would also have to see she was walking past them. AND if they can't take the extra 2 seconds to figure out if approaching someone is appropriate at that moment, then they just shouldn't bother, because that is also rude. You know, I mean - not even talking about male/female issues, but when did it become appropriate to try and stop a stranger on the streets when they're walking somewhere? When did people start thinking it was okay to approach a complete and total stranger with personal comments about how attracted they are to them or comments on their looks? Personally, it doesn't bother me, but I acknowledge that it is just flat-out impolite and a breach of the social contract. Again, putting aside the gender difference - Yes, someone should be standing still (at the very least!) before you approach them to strike up a conversation. Otherwise they are trying to get somewhere. They are in motion because they have a life and an agenda that extends beyond social interaction at that moment and deciding that what YOU have to say is more important than them trying to get where they want to go is inconsiderate. Its like expecting someone to pull over on the highway just so you can talk to them. Or like going to a live musical performance. When you go - you want to show the performer that you appreciate the beauty they're putting out there. At a rock concert: you can whoop, holler, shout, scream, jump up and down all night long to show your appreciation. At a formal piano recital: you're supposed to sit quietly and wait for the song to end before politely applauding. If you were shouting and screaming your love for the performer all throughout the piano recital - that would be considered very very rude, even though you're just trying to pay them a complement. Different situational context requires different behavior reactions on our part. The nicest complement you can pay someone who is walking on the sidewalk is to let them continue walking undisturbed and get where they need to go.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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Post by Dub H on Oct 31, 2014 11:47:23 GMT -5
Heck, she gets catcalled 108 times in the video, but think about how many people you'd walk by in Manhattan in a given day; 108 is a small percentage. But it's still REALLY frequent for any person who has to deal with it. Just to make it clear,she does no get harassed 108 times in the video. But there is a disclaimer that says so .But man if there was 108 instances in the time duration of the video,that would be something else.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 11:57:54 GMT -5
Heck, she gets catcalled 108 times in the video, but think about how many people you'd walk by in Manhattan in a given day; 108 is a small percentage. But it's still REALLY frequent for any person who has to deal with it. Just to make it clear,she does no get harassed 108 times in the video. But there is a disclaimer that says so .But man if there was 108 instances in the time duration of the video,that would be something else. Maybe not sexual harrassment. But I'd call someone trying to get my attention as I'm walking down the street harassment. Whether it be a street preacher, homeless person or what have you. It certainly feels like harassment when they have zero business interacting with me in the first place. I'm not walking down the street to be social - I'm trying to get somewhere.
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