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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 21:50:44 GMT -5
You realize your point is infinitely more applicable to the people doing the harassing, correct? Like, people who feel the world revolves around them, to the point that they expect women to smile for them, respond to them, make time for them, all while those women are just trying to mind their own business. That's self-absorption. And, please, don't present strawman arguments. The video clearly doesn't show old gentlemen doffing their caps and saying "Good morning, madam", so your point is completely lost here. I don't think that they are one and the same. The woman was looking to be offended whilst the man was frankly trying his luck. Is it wrong the way he tries to flatter? In my opinion yes, however firstly as a white Englishman I don't share his same culture or teachings so I can not truly understand nor is his way of flattery totally repugnant to all women. Some women respond well to that, they like it. He tried his luck with a girl, as someone that goes out to nightclubs to talk to girls I have no right to judge. And by the very fact that the old gentleman was in this video whilst white people were not it shows that they were trying to make a point. And from a lot of comments saying that its for example "pervy" I believe people have made the connections that the video was making. Education is needed for both sides of this argument. The catcalling man to read the timing of a situation and the "me, me, me" woman to think before reacting. When people go to nightclubs, they're often trying to hook up. There's nothing wrong with that kind of thing. When a woman is trying to get some exercise and is completely minding her own business? Nope. That guy is a distraction at best. Dangerous at worst. In this country, you don't "try your luck" with girls on the street. That is totally inappropriate here. It almost never works. That's what clubs, bars, coffee shops and dating sites are for.
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Square
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Post by Square on Oct 29, 2014 21:52:00 GMT -5
But is an old gentleman going "good morning beautiful" bad? When its randomly shouted to a woman trying to walk to work? Yes. Well, its not "bad," just bad manners. Old, young, it doesn't really matter the age. Why is it bad manners to give a compliment? When has the line between being polite and cheerful and objectifying women came into such strict effect that to say a nice thing to someone is bad? Because one group decided to make it so? I'm getting some 1984 vibes off that shit man and My problem with some of this is belittling men's issues. I'm 100% in agreement that women have it worse, but men who voice that they feel either harrassed or objectified get ridiculed or made to feel "silly" for even trying to say they have anything less than. I'm not saying that is happening in this thread. That is one of my pet peeves with some of the sect and I feel like I can voice opinions here because people are generally open minded. But men are the dominant, the alpha males. All men rule on a seat of patriarchy. They HAVE no problems, none whatsoever. And how DARE they try and say that in the plight of a woman who feels a bit upset cause someone said she was pretty.
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Square
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Post by Square on Oct 29, 2014 21:54:45 GMT -5
I don't think that they are one and the same. The woman was looking to be offended whilst the man was frankly trying his luck. Is it wrong the way he tries to flatter? In my opinion yes, however firstly as a white Englishman I don't share his same culture or teachings so I can not truly understand nor is his way of flattery totally repugnant to all women. Some women respond well to that, they like it. He tried his luck with a girl, as someone that goes out to nightclubs to talk to girls I have no right to judge. And by the very fact that the old gentleman was in this video whilst white people were not it shows that they were trying to make a point. And from a lot of comments saying that its for example "pervy" I believe people have made the connections that the video was making. Education is needed for both sides of this argument. The catcalling man to read the timing of a situation and the "me, me, me" woman to think before reacting. When people go to nightclubs, they're often trying to hook up. There's nothing wrong with that kind of thing. When a woman is trying to get some exercise and is completely minding her own business? Nope. That guy is a distraction at best. Dangerous at worst. In this country, you don't "try your luck" with girls on the street. That is totally inappropriate here. It almost never works. That's what clubs, bars, coffee shops and dating sites are for. Sorry to double post but firstly "in this country"? Also I met my ex as I was walking in town. I saw her and introduced myself and apologised that I was doing so but "I would kick myself if I didn't say hi with a girl as pretty as you". Dated 6 months.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 21:55:08 GMT -5
When its randomly shouted to a woman trying to walk to work? Yes. Well, its not "bad," just bad manners. Old, young, it doesn't really matter the age. Why is it bad manners to give a compliment? When has the line between being polite and cheerful and objectifying women came into such strict effect that to say a nice thing to someone is bad? Because one group decided to make it so? I'm getting some 1984 vibes off that shit man and My problem with some of this is belittling men's issues. I'm 100% in agreement that women have it worse, but men who voice that they feel either harrassed or objectified get ridiculed or made to feel "silly" for even trying to say they have anything less than. I'm not saying that is happening in this thread. That is one of my pet peeves with some of the sect and I feel like I can voice opinions here because people are generally open minded. But men are the dominant, the alpha males. All men rule on a seat of patriarchy. They HAVE no problems, none whatsoever. And how DARE they try and say that in the plight of a woman who feels a bit upset cause someone said she was pretty. So you don't see an issue with forcing a woman to deal with your "compliments" when all she wants to do is walk around and mind her own business? That's literal sociopathy, you realize that, right?
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 29, 2014 21:56:54 GMT -5
I don't like using my attempt at a real thought for more argument starting.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 21:57:37 GMT -5
When people go to nightclubs, they're often trying to hook up. There's nothing wrong with that kind of thing. When a woman is trying to get some exercise and is completely minding her own business? Nope. That guy is a distraction at best. Dangerous at worst. In this country, you don't "try your luck" with girls on the street. That is totally inappropriate here. It almost never works. That's what clubs, bars, coffee shops and dating sites are for. Sorry to double post but firstly "in this country"? Also I met my ex as I was walking in town. I saw her and introduced myself and apologised that I was doing so but "I would kick myself if I didn't say hi with a girl as pretty as you". Dated 6 months. This is a video in the US. Our two countries may be part of the same language and cultural sphere, but we still have different social norms. Male/female interaction would seem like a universal thing, but...no, it really varies from country to country. I *wish* that kind of thing you did was acceptable here, but usually, it's unfortunately executed in a very threatening context, and it ruins it for the people who don't have ill intentions.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 21:59:27 GMT -5
My problem with some of this is belittling men's issues. I'm 100% in agreement that women have it worse, but men who voice that they feel either harrassed or objectified get ridiculed or made to feel "silly" for even trying to say they have anything less than. I'm not saying that is happening in this thread. That is one of my pet peeves with some of the sect and I feel like I can voice opinions here because people are generally open minded. There's two parts to answer this. 1. Can you show where men being objectified is a widespread, societal problem? I'm sure it happens, but is it as clearly ubiquitous as man-on-woman harassment? 2. If it IS a major problem, who's saying you can't try to do something about it? Anti-harassment campaigns are happy to work to undo harassment of anybody, it just so happens that the vast majority of cases of it involve harassment of women.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 29, 2014 22:00:37 GMT -5
I don't even know how I feel about you going through all this trouble to justify why you shouldn't help a woman getting harrased, Reflecto. I'm not saying that to guilt-trip you into changing your mind, because I'm not saying this to change your mind really. It's obviously made up and nothing I can say is going to change it, but... Do you, dude. Do you. Just don't quote me unless you're addressing me directly, that's all I ask. Great part for the post. I consider that harassment.
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Lila
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Post by Lila on Oct 29, 2014 22:00:48 GMT -5
I'm not even going to lie when I say I knew this video would reach over and cause a long ass thread about it. The two dudes that followed her should be ashamed the most.
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Square
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Post by Square on Oct 29, 2014 22:04:29 GMT -5
Why is it bad manners to give a compliment? When has the line between being polite and cheerful and objectifying women came into such strict effect that to say a nice thing to someone is bad? Because one group decided to make it so? I'm getting some 1984 vibes off that shit man and But men are the dominant, the alpha males. All men rule on a seat of patriarchy. They HAVE no problems, none whatsoever. And how DARE they try and say that in the plight of a woman who feels a bit upset cause someone said she was pretty. So you don't see an issue with forcing a woman to deal with your "compliments" when all she wants to do is walk around and mind her own business? That's literal sociopathy, you realize that, right? ...Did you just call me a nutjob because I disagree with your opinion? If all these men are following her around is such a big issue might I suggest a brand new idea to show people that you can not hear Works like a charm
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Square
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Post by Square on Oct 29, 2014 22:06:05 GMT -5
I'm not even going to lie when I say I knew this video would reach over and cause a long ass thread about it. The two dudes that followed her should be ashamed the most. Absolutely, there is a line and they crossed it big time. But a quick comment in the hopes of making someone feel good?
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 22:06:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 22:07:13 GMT -5
I'm not even going to lie when I say I knew this video would reach over and cause a long ass thread about it. The two dudes that followed her should be ashamed the most. Absolutely, there is a line and they crossed it big time. But a quick comment in the hopes of making someone feel good? But...that's not what it is. At all. These are guys who just blurt out whatever because they have no social skills.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 22:08:51 GMT -5
I feel that arguing about men and the harassment we might get is completely outside the point of this topic. I mean, I know I brought it up too, but I did at least tie that back to what the topic was actually about.
I don't know what gets solved with turning a topic about women dealing with street harassment into talking men's issues...or why this stuff always seems to happen when we talk about stuff that primarily happens to women...other than completely derail the conversation because then once again it turns into #WhatAboutTheMen.
Oh well, part of that is probably my fault. I shouldn't have even tried to use that example as trying to draw a parallel.
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Square
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Square on Oct 29, 2014 22:10:25 GMT -5
Absolutely, there is a line and they crossed it big time. But a quick comment in the hopes of making someone feel good? But...that's not what it is. At all. These are guys who just blurt out whatever because they have no social skills. There's no way to prove that. Its looking at the situation ala glass half empty half full. I know from my experiences that people try and make people happy.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 29, 2014 22:10:27 GMT -5
My problem with some of this is belittling men's issues. I'm 100% in agreement that women have it worse, but men who voice that they feel either harrassed or objectified get ridiculed or made to feel "silly" for even trying to say they have anything less than. I'm not saying that is happening in this thread. That is one of my pet peeves with some of the sect and I feel like I can voice opinions here because people are generally open minded. There's two parts to answer this. 1. Can you show where men being objectified is a widespread, societal problem? I'm sure it happens, but is it as clearly ubiquitous as man-on-woman harassment? 2. If it IS a major problem, who's saying you can't try to do something about it? Anti-harassment campaigns are happy to work to undo harassment of anybody, it just so happens that the vast majority of cases of it involve harassment of women. Just because it's not a major problem doesn't make it something to gloss over. This video for example: I saw met with things like, "Women have it worse" and this: And that's not okay either. Or women saying "Teach men not to rape". That's horribly close minded. We need to teach everyone to be kind and not to hurt each other. I just think the specificity and labelling is making the problem worse and creating argument like this thread. Don't say women need to do this or men need to do that. PEOPLE need to act a certain way.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 22:11:59 GMT -5
So you don't see an issue with forcing a woman to deal with your "compliments" when all she wants to do is walk around and mind her own business? That's literal sociopathy, you realize that, right? ...Did you just call me a nutjob because I disagree with your opinion? If all these men are following her around is such a big issue might I suggest a brand new idea to show people that you can not hear Works like a charm I said what you described is sociopathy: choosing to ignore the feelings of a person receiving treatment they wish not to receive, and have done nothing to warrant receiving, opting instead to focus on what makes one happy and gives one personal satisfaction. Ignoring the feelings of others for one's own satisfaction, among many other related traits to harassing behavior, fall under the sociopathic umbrella. And, no, the earbuds don't work, because then there's visual and, often, physical harassment. And, no, women shouldn't be forced to feel compelled to always wear earbuds when walking down the street, because maybe they don't feel like it, and maybe the responsibility is on a group of self-absorbed guys with no self control to keep their thoughts to themselves. The onus is on the person committing the offending act to change their behavior, not on the person receiving the abuse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 22:18:43 GMT -5
Man...all this stuff goes down again.
Then a few months later somebody's going to wonder, again, about why more women don't post here. Stuff like this, man...stuff like this...adds up, but some of y'all ain't hearing it.
But you know, I'm sleep. I'm not even here right now.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 22:18:46 GMT -5
There's two parts to answer this. 1. Can you show where men being objectified is a widespread, societal problem? I'm sure it happens, but is it as clearly ubiquitous as man-on-woman harassment? 2. If it IS a major problem, who's saying you can't try to do something about it? Anti-harassment campaigns are happy to work to undo harassment of anybody, it just so happens that the vast majority of cases of it involve harassment of women. Just because it's not a major problem doesn't make it something to gloss over. This video for example: </snip> And that's not okay either. Or women saying "Teach men not to rape". That's horribly close minded. We need to teach everyone to be kind and not to hurt each other. I just think the specificity and labelling is making the problem worse and creating argument like this thread. Don't say women need to do this or men need to do that. PEOPLE need to act a certain way. Dude, that's lovely in a world where abuse and gender discrimination is equally spread, but that's just not reality. Men can be victims of domestic violence, yes, but it's still clearly an issue, like public harassment, that has exponentially more female than male victims, at least on the far end of the abuse spectrum. By demanding to have the issues treated equally, we create an unequal environment, because the actual problem in society is not a balanced one between the genders. Obviously we should educate all people to be kind to one another, but ignoring how heavily gendered the victim percentages are in favor of "everybody be nice" will not create an equitable solution to what is clearly not an equitable problem. ...And why is is "close-minded" to teach men not to rape, given that the vast majority of rapes are committed by us guys? Again, this isn't a 50/50 split; it's not even 75/25.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 29, 2014 22:25:21 GMT -5
Sorry to double post but firstly "in this country"? Also I met my ex as I was walking in town. I saw her and introduced myself and apologised that I was doing so but "I would kick myself if I didn't say hi with a girl as pretty as you". Dated 6 months. This is a video in the US. Our two countries may be part of the same language and cultural sphere, but we still have different social norms. Male/female interaction would seem like a universal thing, but...no, it really varies from country to country. I *wish* that kind of thing you did was acceptable here, but usually, it's unfortunately executed in a very threatening context, and it ruins it for the people who don't have ill intentions. That rememebrs,here in Brasil there was a ...interesting research. A Woman went around kissing guys she met around the streets,and a man went around asking for sex....surprisingly both got most positive reactions.
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