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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 29, 2014 22:26:32 GMT -5
Just because it's not a major problem doesn't make it something to gloss over. This video for example: </snip> And that's not okay either. Or women saying "Teach men not to rape". That's horribly close minded. We need to teach everyone to be kind and not to hurt each other. I just think the specificity and labelling is making the problem worse and creating argument like this thread. Don't say women need to do this or men need to do that. PEOPLE need to act a certain way. Dude, that's lovely in a world where abuse and gender discrimination is equally spread, but that's just not reality. Men can be victims of domestic violence, yes, but it's still clearly an issue, like public harassment, that has exponentially more female than male victims, at least on the far end of the abuse spectrum. By demanding to have the issues treated equally, we create an unequal environment, because the actual problem in society is not a balanced one between the genders. Obviously we should educate all people to be kind to one another, but ignoring how heavily gendered the victim percentages are in favor of "everybody be nice" will not create an equitable solution to what is clearly not an equitable problem. ...And why is is "close-minded" to teach men not to rape, given that the vast majority of rapes are committed by us guys? Again, this isn't a 50/50 split; it's not even 75/25. I'm not seeing how because one issue is a bigger one that we couldn't try to fix them in a way that represents what the end game is. Fixing them as a whole society I think would promote a togetherness that saying "Men need to change" doesn't. I'm not saying "Men's rights" are more of an issue or anything, but I think trying to fix any issues by drawing a strong dividing line down the middle is making it worse in some regards. If I had to sum it up further, I guess I'd ask "why fix one problem at a time if we might be able to do both at once?" but I don't see the issue as a "volume vs. importance" thing.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 22:33:21 GMT -5
But I already said it, man: nobody's saying you can't bring some attention to issues men and women both face. It's not the people making this video treating it as a "you can only fix one or the other!" issue, so I'm not sure why you're projecting that.
One is clearly the larger-yet-still-underreported problem, so it gets more attention. This isn't exactly a strange phenomenon; when it's a larger problem, more people have experienced it and speak on it. It's true for awareness causes for diseases, social issues, political issues, etc.
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Post by Square on Oct 29, 2014 22:35:08 GMT -5
...Did you just call me a nutjob because I disagree with your opinion? If all these men are following her around is such a big issue might I suggest a brand new idea to show people that you can not hear Works like a charm I said what you described is sociopathy: choosing to ignore the feelings of a person receiving treatment they wish not to receive, and have done nothing to warrant receiving, opting instead to focus on what makes one happy and gives one personal satisfaction. Ignoring the feelings of others for one's own satisfaction, among many other related traits to harassing behavior, fall under the sociopathic umbrella. And, no, the earbuds don't work, because then there's visual and, often, physical harassment. And, no, women shouldn't be forced to feel compelled to always wear earbuds when walking down the street, because maybe they don't feel like it, and maybe the responsibility is on a group of self-absorbed guys with no self control to keep their thoughts to themselves. The onus is on the person committing the offending act to change their behavior, not on the person receiving the abuse. I'm not ignoring peoples feelings. I've stated time and time again that harassment is wrong. But there is a difference between harrasment and a compliment. If you take offence at something that minute maybe they have a problem in understanding that they are not a 24/7 victim and the world isn't against them? Often physical harrassment? I'm calling bollocks on that. Also since this is a discussion about offence and harassment, I'm offended at you calling me a sociopath to try and win an argument. I have family members that have sever mental illness issues and for you to use it so flippantly and almost as a weapon is offensive to me.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 29, 2014 22:38:16 GMT -5
I'm not projecting anything. You didn't use the word fix, but you said the issues can't be equal. To me that means that one takes precedent over the other. To me that goes against what equality means.
But I don't think that is what you meant. Where as other people I've seen on the interent (and I have seen serious feminists out right calling men "crybabies" for suggesting maybe they don't have it great either) are the ones I take umbrage with.
But that's not you so no need to direct at you further.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 22:47:58 GMT -5
I said what you described is sociopathy: choosing to ignore the feelings of a person receiving treatment they wish not to receive, and have done nothing to warrant receiving, opting instead to focus on what makes one happy and gives one personal satisfaction. Ignoring the feelings of others for one's own satisfaction, among many other related traits to harassing behavior, fall under the sociopathic umbrella. And, no, the earbuds don't work, because then there's visual and, often, physical harassment. And, no, women shouldn't be forced to feel compelled to always wear earbuds when walking down the street, because maybe they don't feel like it, and maybe the responsibility is on a group of self-absorbed guys with no self control to keep their thoughts to themselves. The onus is on the person committing the offending act to change their behavior, not on the person receiving the abuse. I'm not ignoring peoples feelings. I've stated time and time again that harassment is wrong. But there is a difference between harrasment and a compliment. If you take offence at something that minute maybe they have a problem in understanding that they are not a 24/7 victim and the world isn't against them? Often physical harrassment? I'm calling bollocks on that. Also since this is a discussion about offence and harassment, I'm offended at you calling me a sociopath to try and win an argument. I have family members that have sever mental illness issues and for you to use it so flippantly and almost as a weapon is offensive to me. Countless women I know, and countless more women I don't know, are posting this video and saying how much it speaks to them, and opening up about their own personal experiences. But you'll just "call bollocks" on it. It begs the question why we should consider you an authority on the subject. Dave, my issue is that you're hyper-focusing on an insanely small slice of the population that may have reacted poorly to a smaller-scale issue, and thus turning this into a discussion of "why not men's issues?" when the entire point of the video was to focus, specifically, on a women's issue. If you want to discuss men's issues, there are ways to do that; but this is about something that's specifically (outside of an incredibly rare few exceptions) a women's issue, in this case catcalling, and there's no reason why men's issues need to enter into it if that's what they're choosing to focus on, specifically.
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Post by Shy Guy on Oct 29, 2014 22:48:08 GMT -5
can we all just stop pretending that we can relate to the other gender, and know how they think/should react to certain situations?
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Post by Square on Oct 29, 2014 22:55:35 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring peoples feelings. I've stated time and time again that harassment is wrong. But there is a difference between harrasment and a compliment. If you take offence at something that minute maybe they have a problem in understanding that they are not a 24/7 victim and the world isn't against them? Often physical harrassment? I'm calling bollocks on that. Also since this is a discussion about offence and harassment, I'm offended at you calling me a sociopath to try and win an argument. I have family members that have sever mental illness issues and for you to use it so flippantly and almost as a weapon is offensive to me. Countless women I know, and countless more women I don't know, are posting this video and saying how much it speaks to them, and opening up about their own personal experiences. But you'll just "call bollocks" on it. It begs the question why we should consider you an authority on the subject. Dave, my issue is that you're hyper-focusing on an insanely small slice of the population that may have reacted poorly to a smaller-scale issue, and thus turning this into a discussion of "why not men's issues?" when the entire point of the video was to focus, specifically, on a women's issue. If you want to discuss men's issues, there are ways to do that; but this is about something that's specifically (outside of an incredibly rare few exceptions) a women's issue, in this case catcalling, and there's no reason why men's issues need to enter into it if that's what they're choosing to focus on, specifically. Nah, I'm claiming bollocks on the often physical harrasment line you said. Also thanks for ignoring the fact that you have offended me.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Oct 29, 2014 23:01:00 GMT -5
I get what you mean. I just firgured I'd try to discuss my distaste for in a thread like this because honestly, I'm not starting a thread trying to dicuss my nuanced thoughts on why I feel like some women's rights activists are doing harm by belittling men's rights. That would be chaos.
I just wanted a chance to civilly discuss my thoughts and I did. So I'm good.
I think you've helped me kind of understand what rational people feel about my stance. Not that it is not valid, but it is not as important? That might seem harsher than you would word it, but that's how it feels. Which I do understand in a way.
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Post by Dub H on Oct 29, 2014 23:05:11 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring peoples feelings. I've stated time and time again that harassment is wrong. But there is a difference between harrasment and a compliment. If you take offence at something that minute maybe they have a problem in understanding that they are not a 24/7 victim and the world isn't against them? Often physical harrassment? I'm calling bollocks on that. Also since this is a discussion about offence and harassment, I'm offended at you calling me a sociopath to try and win an argument. I have family members that have sever mental illness issues and for you to use it so flippantly and almost as a weapon is offensive to me. Countless women I know, and countless more women I don't know, are posting this video and saying how much it speaks to them, and opening up about their own personal experiences. But you'll just "call bollocks" on it. It begs the question why we should consider you an authority on the subject. Dave, my issue is that you're hyper-focusing on an insanely small slice of the population that may have reacted poorly to a smaller-scale issue, and thus turning this into a discussion of "why not men's issues?" when the entire point of the video was to focus, specifically, on a women's issue. If you want to discuss men's issues, there are ways to do that; but this is about something that's specifically (outside of an incredibly rare few exceptions) a women's issue, in this case catcalling, and there's no reason why men's issues need to enter into it if that's what they're choosing to focus on, specifically. My best friends(that are female) when i talked about then said that people are overecting,and that Hi does not count as a harassment,and that themselves see woman saying "hi" to man all the time and trying to flirt.Opinions really change depending of person. Also,i think the problem is not being a "men's issues" or "woman's issues" and more that he is affirming it should be "person's issues".Nothing forbids dealing with both sides. Anyway,i think you two need to chill and take some time from each other.
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Post by Nickybojelais on Oct 29, 2014 23:29:04 GMT -5
I know the feeling, it's harassment every step I take. Beggars, People selling stuff, Charities bugging me for donations, Religious lunatics preaching drivel and trying to save my soul.
Seriously if you see me walking the streets minding my own business, unless you know me, leave me the hell alone!
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Post by knightrider01 on Oct 29, 2014 23:51:18 GMT -5
Honestly I think unless you are a woman you really have no idea what a woman goes through. Sure we can guess but never be certain.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 0:52:31 GMT -5
When its randomly shouted to a woman trying to walk to work? Yes. Well, its not "bad," just bad manners. Old, young, it doesn't really matter the age. Why is it bad manners to give a compliment? When has the line between being polite and cheerful and objectifying women came into such strict effect that to say a nice thing to someone is bad? Because one group decided to make it so? I'm getting some 1984 vibes off that shit man Its bad manners to approach a stranger with comments on their looks. Or to yell out something as they walk by. Its just rude. In the right setting its fine, but "saying something to make someone feel good" when SO MANY women have stated it has the opposite effect seems to not make sense. It doesn't seem to make them feel good at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 1:12:10 GMT -5
Its pretty simple.
Giving complements is great as long as its done at the appropriate time/place. Yelling complements to a passerby as they're trying to get somewhere is impolite, at best. Gracefully working a complement into an ongoing conversation is much more polite and less socially jarring.
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Post by Digital Witness on Oct 30, 2014 2:09:10 GMT -5
Its pretty simple. Giving complements is great as long as its done at the appropriate time/place. Yelling complements to a passerby as they're trying to get somewhere is impolite, at best. Gracefully working a complement into an ongoing conversation is much more polite and less socially jarring. I find this sort of amusing actually. At my university a week or so ago, a group of women representing some club were out in front of the memorial union building handing out pieces of paper with compliments on them. Many of the passers by would either try to sneak by them or give them the glare of death.
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Post by Ash Kingston on Oct 30, 2014 2:37:26 GMT -5
Two things.
One, I think that the line for where harassment starts is a very vague and ephemeral thing. I'm not talking about stuff like someone following a woman and catcalling them even after they've shown no interest, or saying shit along the lines of "I want to pee in your butt! *slurp*", but a casual "hello" or "good evening" as you pass on the street feels like another matter entirely. I mean, during as my days as one of those social nightmarish Japanese wasps, I wouldn't say hello to everyone I passed on the street, but a large part of that was because I would sound like a dolphin on crack if I ever tried. I'd still say hello if someone said it to me first, and I'd hold a door open just out of common courtesy... and I dunno, it's just weird to me that being polite can be taken as harassment these days.
This is why I avoid social interaction at all costs. That and the fact that I'm probably a bit asocial.
Two, I am amazed that these topics ever get started, because in a lot of ways, it's beginning to remind me of people trying to discuss politics or religion. Some of y'all just can't bloody well do it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 30, 2014 6:55:06 GMT -5
Countless women I know, and countless more women I don't know, are posting this video and saying how much it speaks to them, and opening up about their own personal experiences. But you'll just "call bollocks" on it. It begs the question why we should consider you an authority on the subject. Dave, my issue is that you're hyper-focusing on an insanely small slice of the population that may have reacted poorly to a smaller-scale issue, and thus turning this into a discussion of "why not men's issues?" when the entire point of the video was to focus, specifically, on a women's issue. If you want to discuss men's issues, there are ways to do that; but this is about something that's specifically (outside of an incredibly rare few exceptions) a women's issue, in this case catcalling, and there's no reason why men's issues need to enter into it if that's what they're choosing to focus on, specifically. My best friends(that are female) when i talked about then said that people are overecting,and that Hi does not count as a harassment,and that themselves see woman saying "hi" to man all the time and trying to flirt.Opinions really change depending of person. Also,i think the problem is not being a "men's issues" or "woman's issues" and more that he is affirming it should be "person's issues".Nothing forbids dealing with both sides. Anyway,i think you two need to chill and take some time from each other. It's why I went to bed almost immediately afterward. But, man, no; it's not a "people" issue, I'm sorry. Maybe there's a regional difference thing going on, which is a more interesting discussion to have, I'd think, but at the very least, in NYC and much of the Northeast, randomly greeting strangers on the street just isn't done, which is a big part of what makes the video strike such a chord for so many people I know around here. Even a random "hi" from a stranger near the subway just doesn't happen, unless it's a guy trying to get a woman's attention. The only time you're likely to see two guys greet each other that way is if they're both wearing the same team's baseball cap or something. Were this truly an everybody issue, there'd be a solution that everybody has to take part in to start stigmatizing the behavior and minimizing it; as it stands, though, it's clearly a problem we, as guys (obviously not most of us, but too many of us) have, again, at least in this part of the country. It's anecdotal, I'm aware, but I still haven't met a single guy around this area who's dealt with this beyond the typical "dealing with panhandlers" type of public annoyance, which clearly isn't the same thing, but is obnoxious nonetheless.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 7:49:03 GMT -5
I get what you mean. I just firgured I'd try to discuss my distaste for in a thread like this because honestly, I'm not starting a thread trying to dicuss my nuanced thoughts on why I feel like some women's rights activists are doing harm by belittling men's rights. That would be chaos. I just wanted a chance to civilly discuss my thoughts and I did. So I'm good. I think you've helped me kind of understand what rational people feel about my stance. Not that it is not valid, but it is not as important? That might seem harsher than you would word it, but that's how it feels. Which I do understand in a way. I want to point out that I think you make a great point. There's definitely a problem that men have to deal with and it's not getting due attention. My personal opinion: I'll take what I can get. If harassing women becomes increasingly taboo, it will eventually trickle over and begin benefiting men. The "No More" ad campaign caught me off guard when I saw ads because some of its lines refer explicitly to men getting raped by women, and how that too is unacceptable. I was pleasantly surprised, and yet, it's not all out of the blue. It's been said so many times that the "rape culture" women have to deal with needs to stop, that some people are connecting the dots and saying that it shouldn't happen to men either. Has it taken longer than I'd like? Yes. But I'm glad it's at least finally happening.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 7:56:03 GMT -5
I get what you mean. I just firgured I'd try to discuss my distaste for in a thread like this because honestly, I'm not starting a thread trying to dicuss my nuanced thoughts on why I feel like some women's rights activists are doing harm by belittling men's rights. That would be chaos. I just wanted a chance to civilly discuss my thoughts and I did. So I'm good. I think you've helped me kind of understand what rational people feel about my stance. Not that it is not valid, but it is not as important? That might seem harsher than you would word it, but that's how it feels. Which I do understand in a way. I want to point out that I think you make a great point. There's definitely a problem that men have to deal with and it's not getting due attention. My personal opinion: I'll take what I can get. If harassing women becomes increasingly taboo, it will eventually trickle over and begin benefiting men. The "No More" ad campaign caught me off guard when I saw ads because some of its lines refer explicitly to men getting raped by women, and how that too is unacceptable. I was pleasantly surprised, and yet, it's not all out of the blue. It's been said so many times that the "rape culture" women have to deal with needs to stop, that some people are connecting the dots and saying that it shouldn't happen to men either. Has it taken longer than I'd like? Yes. But I'm glad it's at least finally happening. You've hit the nail on the head with this post. It's a case of most people not needing to be told not to bother guys, as 'why would we do this to men?' whereas many people say that women being bothered is just a part of life and it's natural when it's not, it's just a lack of social education given an excuse. Everyone should treat everyone the same, with respect and like a decent human being, with politeness and social education in mind, it's going to take many a year before it works out but the more people have to think about others -and that's what it is, it doesn't matter what any of US think is harassment if it never happens to us, it's what people encountering every unique instance of the behavior consider harassment that matters- and empathize the more we'll be better as a species. Respect is key, show respect and consider others, be mindful, then we'll all be happy as this Larry fellow I keep hearing about.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 8:55:04 GMT -5
But I don't think that is what you meant. Where as other people I've seen on the interent (and I have seen serious feminists out right calling men "crybabies" for suggesting maybe they don't have it great either) are the ones I take umbrage with. Interesting way to phrase it because more often than not I've seen more men act incredulously at the idea of male rape/domestic abuse than I have women. Feminists I've run into in my life generally accept that male rape exists. Though to be fair **puts on snobby glasses** most of them were well-read feminists who actually studied the subject on an academic level and not just pop stars or random people who put it in their twitter profile. **takes off snobby glasses** But on a wider scale I think you're going to have a harder time convincing other men that male rape/etc exists because women have more familiarity with the subject. Also due to societal pressures of "machismo" and, as evidenced by the comments regarding this video, there are plenty of men who don't even believe it really happens to women so how are they EVER going to believe it happens to men. Especially with the whole "I'll take what I can get attitude" that gets thrown around. But I agree, the problem becomes when you try to paint either gender as the villain instead of finding a way to work together to try and make things better.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 8:57:10 GMT -5
I want to point out that I think you make a great point. There's definitely a problem that men have to deal with and it's not getting due attention. My personal opinion: I'll take what I can get. If harassing women becomes increasingly taboo, it will eventually trickle over and begin benefiting men. The "No More" ad campaign caught me off guard when I saw ads because some of its lines refer explicitly to men getting raped by women, and how that too is unacceptable. I was pleasantly surprised, and yet, it's not all out of the blue. It's been said so many times that the "rape culture" women have to deal with needs to stop, that some people are connecting the dots and saying that it shouldn't happen to men either. Has it taken longer than I'd like? Yes. But I'm glad it's at least finally happening. You've hit the nail on the head with this post. It's a case of most people not needing to be told not to bother guys, as 'why would we do this to men?' whereas many people say that women being bothered is just a part of life and it's natural when it's not, it's just a lack of social education given an excuse. Everyone should treat everyone the same, with respect and like a decent human being, with politeness and social education in mind, it's going to take many a year before it works out but the more people have to think about others -and that's what it is, it doesn't matter what any of US think is harassment if it never happens to us, it's what people encountering every unique instance of the behavior consider harassment that matters- and empathize the more we'll be better as a species. Respect is key, show respect and consider others, be mindful, then we'll all be happy as this Larry fellow I keep hearing about. That's why someone needs to take the first step. If men in general find sexual harassment to be vile and repugnant, that will stigmatize the activities and the people who participate in them, and give women more confidence. Then the onus on women to act similarly will increase. I think it'd be easier if we could take a more egalitarian approach on the whole matter, but like I said, I'm not too choosy. The fact that people are getting into it already means that this video is making a difference. And I'm just fine with that.
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