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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 23:47:01 GMT -5
For most people the sidewalk is a just a way you travel from point A to point B and aren't interested in being social. It is honestly the pedestrian equivalent of rolling your window down on the highway and trying to talk to the person driving next you. I still find the idea of men "just being nice" by saying "hi beautiful" strange and men need to re-assess what they consider nice when so many women have spoken out about it doesn't feel nice when they're being told it by a stranger. Why does none of this apply to women complimenting a man on his looks? You know women aren't always polite? How about equality for example? Why specify it as just men talking to women? Because it happens to women much more than men. If we take away any notions of spectrum of gender and stick with antiquated women/men roles, and pretend all men/women are tied to their physical sex, then men on average are bigger/louder than women, so it's more of an issue when a phyiscally bigger/louder person is giving unwanted attention to a relatively smaller person. Do some women also act out or over the top and unwantedly? Yes. But it's much less common, so dealing with the more obvious problem of obnoxious men bothering women is pretty much an obvious way forward. "Why specify it as just men talking to women?" Simple, because that's what the topic contains, proof of men giving overwhelming unwanted attention to women. Because women are bothered MUCH more than men in general unless we want to get into discussions of LGBT communities where things can get a bit more confusing in regards to gender/sex/who people are into. Men are bothered less than women in day to day business, so turning it into a 'not all men' or 'men are victims too, talk about men more than women' is not constructive or logical in any way. It's a defensive stance that stifles discussion as if to present that we all stand on an equal playing field regardless of sex/gender when, well, we don't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 23:59:13 GMT -5
This thread feels like it is going around in circles. I'll weigh in anyway The first thing I noticed was the type of people doing this. None of them seems like regular guys chilling at a starbucks or hanging out at the apple church. And thats where the problem is. These lowlifes will never ever stop doing these things and even if another guy stands up for her it will probably end up in some sort of violence or elevated verbal abuse. I see nothing wrong with approaching a woman you feel attracted to and strike up a conversation. Just have some class and respect. It might end up in a date or whatever. I don't think catcalling someone ever works anyway. It reminds me of the same bottom feeders who you'll see on social media (twitter, facebook, you name it) whenever a girl posts a picture. Like hyenas at a rotting carcass, they show up, make some noise and disappear. And then do the exact same thing when another girl posts. It doesn't work. It's not even about it working. It's just that they have no manners and no self-restraint, no respect for women or for themselves. So they do whatever. It doesn't matter to them. Acting like that demeans them more than the women they do it to. Normal people look down on the people who do that. And with good cause. This thread feels like it is going around in circles. I'll weigh in anyway The first thing I noticed was the type of people doing this. None of them seems like regular guys chilling at a starbucks or hanging out at the apple church. And thats where the problem is. These lowlifes will never ever stop doing these things and even if another guy stands up for her it will probably end up in some sort of violence or elevated verbal abuse. I see nothing wrong with approaching a woman you feel attracted to and strike up a conversation. Just have some class and respect. It might end up in a date or whatever. I don't think catcalling someone ever works anyway. To push back a bit, I wouldn't automatically reach the conclusion that just lowlife dudes are doing this. I've seen a lot of women say that they've been harassed by dudes in "classier" parts of town. I think she filmed this on 125th Street, but if she were to go to Wall St, I'm betting she'd get the same responses as shown on the original video. There are tricky dynamics to this particular video that was mentioned in the first comment, but women of other backgrounds have discussed how men of all races & ethnicities have harassed them. I think the biggest takeaway I've had from this video and the experiences of women who have discussed being harassed is the level of entitlement people have when it comes to engagement. Like, you can say whatever you want, but I don't have to stop and acknowledge your presence if I choose not to. But are the guys on Wall Street any more normal than the lowlifes in the slums? Like I said, sexual harassment is still definitely an issue. But it's an issue that's concentrated--like most of our issues--at the extreme ends of society. Normal people in the US know this kind of behavior is NOT okay. But low-class and elite-class society are horrendously sexist. This video attests to the former. Hollywood and media in general pretty easily attest to the latter. Neither of those groups are the aforementioned "regular guys chilling at a Starbucks."
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BK From WV
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Post by BK From WV on Oct 29, 2014 0:10:30 GMT -5
To push back a bit, I wouldn't automatically reach the conclusion that just lowlife dudes are doing this. I've seen a lot of women say that they've been harassed by dudes in "classier" parts of town. I think she filmed this on 125th Street, but if she were to go to Wall St, I'm betting she'd get the same responses as shown on the original video. There are tricky dynamics to this particular video that was mentioned in the first comment, but women of other backgrounds have discussed how men of all races & ethnicities have harassed them. I think the biggest takeaway I've had from this video and the experiences of women who have discussed being harassed is the level of entitlement people have when it comes to engagement. Like, you can say whatever you want, but I don't have to stop and acknowledge your presence if I choose not to. I'm from a state where not engaging with people on the street is the norm. Our country say we are the "coldest" state as a joke.But i agree,i think saying hi and all is fine.There DEFINITELY is people that goes to far,and that is something that hopefully will change. But i don't think people should avoid saying hi if they feel like,just don't think people should answer you back. Good post. I work a job where I am required to talk to people and ask them how they're doing. So when I'm out in public, I will instinctively say "Hello" or "How are you" to people I don't know. There's nothing wrong with that. Heck, I would say it to random people in Manhattan when I was up there for Wrestlemania 29. If someone made eye contact with me, I would typically acknowledge them. Didn't matter if it was a man or woman. And like you said, people are in no way obligated to respond back to me and many don't. I don't take offense to it if they don't. I just keep on my way. Were there instances in that video where she was being catcalled/harassed? Absolutely and there is no excuse for that. But if someone says hello or how are you, it doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to hit on you. I wouldn't call some of the responses in this video catcalling.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
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Post by Renslayer on Oct 29, 2014 0:23:15 GMT -5
I'm from a state where not engaging with people on the street is the norm. Our country say we are the "coldest" state as a joke.But i agree,i think saying hi and all is fine.There DEFINITELY is people that goes to far,and that is something that hopefully will change. But i don't think people should avoid saying hi if they feel like,just don't think people should answer you back. Good post. I work a job where I am required to talk to people and ask them how they're doing. So when I'm out in public, I will instinctively say "Hello" or "How are you" to people I don't know. There's nothing wrong with that. Heck, I would say it to random people in Manhattan when I was up there for Wrestlemania 29. If someone made eye contact with me, I would typically acknowledge them. Didn't matter if it was a man or woman. And like you said, people are in no way obligated to respond back to me and many don't. I don't take offense to it if they don't. I just keep on my way. Were there instances in that video where she was being catcalled/harassed? Absolutely and there is no excuse for that. But if someone says hello or how are you, it doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to hit on you. I wouldn't call some of the responses in this video catcalling. I agree with both of the comments and say hi if I'm out in the street and a woman gives me eye contact. From all the women I've seen discussing street harassment, none of them are bothered by a hi or have a nice day. The difference kicks in when the extra stuff comes afterwards. It's cool to say hi, but to roll up on a stranger asking all sorts of invasive questions and then getting angry when you don't get a response? THAT's what a lot of the people who have discussed this have been calling out. It's really just a matter of just having respect for women and having some manners and sense.
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Urethra Franklin
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Oct 29, 2014 0:25:15 GMT -5
My related/unrelated contribution to this topic:
Right now in Toronto, there is a major scandal involving a media personality named Jian Ghomeshi. Up until Sunday, he was the host of "Q," a wildly popular entertainment radio and TV show on CBC and broadcast on NPR is the US (You might know him as the guy Billy Bob Thornton infamously went off on in that interview about his band a few years ago.)
Anyway, Ghomeshi was fired because of what he alleges were lies by a vengeful ex-GF about his over-aggressiveness in the bedroom. He claims that everything he's ever done has been consensual.
Since then, the Toronto Star has published an article detailing complaints from several young women about Ghomeshi's sexual harassment and even sexual assault (Truth be told: I know people who know him and they've always said he's a skeezy creep.)
He's now suing the CBC for $55M for defamation and wrongful termination among other things and there is a very public game of "He Said/She Said" playing out right now.
Why bring this up? Well, it was very interesting to see the number of people who jumped to defend Ghomeshi without ever hearing the other side or knowing any details of the story. They simply chalked it up to a crazy ex, despite not even knowing who this woman was or what she was even actually alleging.
So in all of this discussion, I saw a very interesting tweet and I think it relates to what we are talking about here.
Basically, it said the reason why people (especially men, specifically, those with power) are often quick to cast aspersions on claims made by women about sexual impropriety and believe the accused is because it's easier for them to identify with the accused.
The average man doesn't see himself as a potential victim of harassment or sexual assault. He just doesn't. He could much sooner see himself being falsely accused of one of those things, rather than being a victim, so it's not surprising that the validity of sexual assault claims is doubted as often as it is.
Obviously, this is not an excuse for them, but it's an explanation as to why people think this way.
So as for the topic here and this video, for anybody saying they don't see a problem with this woman being subjected to catcalls and any form of unwanted advance as benign as it might seem, put yourself in her shoes.
Even if the majority of these men are innocuous, some men aren't and how is any woman supposed to tell the difference?
This is textbook harassment and it's wrong.
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BK From WV
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Post by BK From WV on Oct 29, 2014 0:31:08 GMT -5
Good post. I work a job where I am required to talk to people and ask them how they're doing. So when I'm out in public, I will instinctively say "Hello" or "How are you" to people I don't know. There's nothing wrong with that. Heck, I would say it to random people in Manhattan when I was up there for Wrestlemania 29. If someone made eye contact with me, I would typically acknowledge them. Didn't matter if it was a man or woman. And like you said, people are in no way obligated to respond back to me and many don't. I don't take offense to it if they don't. I just keep on my way. Were there instances in that video where she was being catcalled/harassed? Absolutely and there is no excuse for that. But if someone says hello or how are you, it doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to hit on you. I wouldn't call some of the responses in this video catcalling. I agree with both of the comments and say hi if I'm out in the street and a woman gives me eye contact. From all the women I've seen discussing street harassment, none of them are bothered by a hi or have a nice day. The difference kicks in when the extra stuff comes afterwards. It's cool to say hi, but to roll up on a stranger asking all sorts of invasive questions and then getting angry when you don't get a response? THAT's what a lot of the people who have discussed this have been calling out. It's really just a matter of just having respect for women and having some manners and sense. Oh, I agree. Like I said, if they don't respond back to me if I say hi, I just continue on my way. The ones who continue to follow her in the video or keep trying to talk to her after she is clearly ignoring them are definitely harassing her. Those people are a problem. I just saw a couple posts in the thread where it sounded like people were condemning people for just saying hello.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
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Post by khali on Oct 29, 2014 0:39:22 GMT -5
Some people have mentioned that it's the lowlife types that do it, but more normal people do it too. I know this because I've been around when non-lowlife people have done this to women. This has included horn honking, telling her she looked beautiful, and in one instance, asking "do you wear mini skirts."
And it is true that it happens to women no matter what the situation or what they're wearing. Here's a story from a former coworker. She was sick of getting approached/hit on/harassed every day while waiting for the bus. To remedy this, she dressed in baggy jeans and a big hoodie with the hood up. With such big clothing and almost no face visible, knowing what her gender was was hard. The very first day, someone directly propositioned her for sex, and in general the harassment didn't stop at all.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 29, 2014 0:47:35 GMT -5
The average man doesn't see himself as a potential victim of harassment or sexual assault. He just doesn't. He could much sooner see himself being falsely accused of one of those things, rather than being a victim, so it's not surprising that the validity of sexual assault claims is doubted as often as it is. Obviously, this is not an excuse for them, but it's an explanation as to why people think this way. This is textbook harassment and it's wrong. I honestly don't understand the point of this in the subject Man may see themselves being false accused,so it is easier to jump on defense. Same reason is for the other side to jump in the other side,because they don't have that fear and can more easily relate to the accusing.Using the same logic at least. Sadly histories of false sexual claims have been increasing and in many cases has been a he or she said.And people are often gonna say"Well,if there is no evidence,some people are gonna side with the accused.But none of these people are cops,detective,and they surely don't know the details,they would be better just not defending or accusing for no reason. I have spent most my life being harassed(mostly because i looked and acted like a girl,i won't claim that now,but it was a big experience of me growing up),so i can in fact understand the feeling,still doesn't mean "Hi" is harassment.I don't think anyone is defending the disgusting and/or entitled ones.As the one comment above said,it is still a serious matter and shows a big problem in society,but hopefully people that are just greeting won't fall in the same category.
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Urethra Franklin
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Oct 29, 2014 1:14:31 GMT -5
The average man doesn't see himself as a potential victim of harassment or sexual assault. He just doesn't. He could much sooner see himself being falsely accused of one of those things, rather than being a victim, so it's not surprising that the validity of sexual assault claims is doubted as often as it is. Obviously, this is not an excuse for them, but it's an explanation as to why people think this way. This is textbook harassment and it's wrong. I honestly don't understand the point of this in the subject Man may see themselves being false accused,so it is easier to jump on defense. Same reason is for the other side to jump in the other side,because they don't have that fear and can more easily relate to the accusing.Using the same logic at least. Sadly histories of false sexual claims have been increasing and in many cases has been a he or she said.And people are often gonna say"Well,if there is no evidence,some people are gonna side with the accused.But none of these people are cops,detective,and they surely don't know the details,they would be better just not defending or accusing for no reason. I have spent most my life being harassed(mostly because i looked and acted like a girl,i won't claim that now,but it was a big experience of me growing up),so i can in fact understand the feeling,still doesn't mean "Hi" is harassment.I don't think anyone is defending the disgusting and/or entitled ones.As the one comment above said,it is still a serious matter and shows a big problem in society,but hopefully people that are just greeting won't fall in the same category. Can you point to anything that corroborates your assertion that false claims are increasing? All I can find is the opposite: www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/13/rape-investigations-belief-false-accusations
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Oct 29, 2014 1:18:11 GMT -5
Just from reading the thread, I assumed the video was an overreaction. I mean, why would saying "Hello" or "Good night" be a bad thing? Then I actually watched it and...yeah, context is everything. It's one thing to say it to someone because you are engaging them, but when you single out someone who is literally walking past you, it...seems weird, yes. Still not the worst thing ever when it's just "Hello" or whatever, but I see why it would make some people feel awkward.
That and, well, there is also a LOT of stuff in the video that goes well beyond any rationalization and it's just...weird. Like the ones that got offended the woman didn't want to talk to them, like holy hell.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 29, 2014 1:50:27 GMT -5
I honestly don't understand the point of this in the subject Man may see themselves being false accused,so it is easier to jump on defense. Same reason is for the other side to jump in the other side,because they don't have that fear and can more easily relate to the accusing.Using the same logic at least. Sadly histories of false sexual claims have been increasing and in many cases has been a he or she said.And people are often gonna say"Well,if there is no evidence,some people are gonna side with the accused.But none of these people are cops,detective,and they surely don't know the details,they would be better just not defending or accusing for no reason. I have spent most my life being harassed(mostly because i looked and acted like a girl,i won't claim that now,but it was a big experience of me growing up),so i can in fact understand the feeling,still doesn't mean "Hi" is harassment.I don't think anyone is defending the disgusting and/or entitled ones.As the one comment above said,it is still a serious matter and shows a big problem in society,but hopefully people that are just greeting won't fall in the same category. Can you point to anything that corroborates your assertion that false claims are increasing? All I can find is the opposite: www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/13/rape-investigations-belief-false-accusationsI did have a few.. www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05/02/false-rape-accusations-may-be-more-common-than-thought/But looking further and at other sources,i admit i am having trouble affirming if it is true.I will say i can't be sure and take it back,apologies. I will at least affirm that is more "shown " these years,more people have focused on that.People are making it a bigger deal these days and age.There is still stories of reports being made of big figures,that ended being fake. Even so,my other claims are not affected by that but feel free to counter argument then too since i was very possibly wrong about something.And i think this is a whole other issue that i would be happy to discuss further in Message,but i think here it would derail from the thread main topic.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 29, 2014 5:01:29 GMT -5
The idea that it's a certain 'class' of dude that becomes an entitled, aggressive douche is just erroneous. If anything, a guy with money and such is apt to be just as de-humanizing.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Oct 29, 2014 5:21:26 GMT -5
Maybe it's just different here, but I'd never see a girl in the street and feel the need to shout stuff at them. I mean, by all means introduce yourself if you think there's a mutual attraction maybe, but just being like "NICE BUTT" seems pointless. Highly doubt the woman's going to think "I DO HAVE A NICE BUTT, LET US PROCEED WITH THE SEX"
Granted, just saying hello and stuff isn't what I'd count as catcalling, but others have said those dudes are probably homeless, so I suppose one could still say they have an ulterior motive.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 29, 2014 6:36:25 GMT -5
The big thing the video is going for, I feel, is to make it clear to us guys that "walking in her shoes" is a mental exercise we need to engage in more often. Some of what I've gleaned from talking with women about this video over the last 24 hours:
As said earlier, what your (the general "you", not the specific) intentions are when you say something to a woman who's minding her own business in public really doesn't count for much; what's much more meaningful are the feelings of the person who has been on the receiving end of the unwanted attention. Think about it from the woman's perspective; if she's had multiple people within a day, week, some short span of time make her feel self-conscious while walking around in public, she's already going to feel a lot of negative pressure and expectations around her. She's probably also had Guy A come up to her and say "You should smile more!", Guy B say "Great ass!", and Guy C say "Good morning, miss! ...I SAID GOOD MORNING, MISS" (or, in many cases, substitute the second "miss" for "you stuck up @#$%").
Now, here comes Guy D, who finds her attractive and wants to be polite, and he opens with a simple "Good evening".
For the woman, given her previous experiences, there are a couple of key thoughts going at this moment, depending on the individual. #1: "If I don't respond, will this guy start yelling or threatening me, like Guy C did earlier?"; #2: "Can't I just walk down a street without people expecting me to do something for them? This is the fourth time today, leave me alone."; #3: "Should I wear something different/walk a different way/hide myself in some way to reduce the amount of times this happens?" (spoiler: there's probably almost nothing she can change about herself to reduce the amount of unwanted attention).
This creates a phenomenon of many women trying to reduce how visible they are when walking in public; taking up less space on a bus or subway seat, for example.
The best parallel I can think of in my own life is that I'm a high school teacher, and when I teach, I'm expected to be "on"; basically, throughout the day I'm performing to a certain extent (I'm watching my language in front of my students, I'm projecting my voice slightly differently, I'm on my feet, gesturing, etc.). When the day's done, I'm completely exhausted, because performance is hard work. But, on the bright side, I draw a paycheck for my efforts, and I get some personal satisfaction out of teaching subjects like US History and Civics.
But if I had to be "on" like that every time I was even just walking down the block to get a falafel pita? Holy hell, I'd go insane.
For a lot of women, or so they keep telling me, this is what it's like; even ignoring harassment is, in its way, a performance, because you'd love to let loose and just say how little you think of the guy doing it, but that fear of him turning it into something physical/sexual is too omnipresent.
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WWEedy
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Post by WWEedy on Oct 29, 2014 6:53:16 GMT -5
The big thing the video is going for, I feel, is to make it clear to us guys that "walking in her shoes" is a mental exercise we need to engage in more often. Some of what I've gleaned from talking with women about this video over the last 24 hours: As said earlier, what your (the general "you", not the specific) intentions are when you say something to a woman who's minding her own business in public really doesn't count for much; what's much more meaningful are the feelings of the person who has been on the receiving end of the unwanted attention. Think about it from the woman's perspective; if she's had multiple people within a day, week, some short span of time make her feel self-conscious while walking around in public, she's already going to feel a lot of negative pressure and expectations around her. She's probably also had Guy A come up to her and say "You should smile more!", Guy B say "Great ass!", and Guy C say "Good morning, miss! ...I SAID GOOD MORNING, MISS" (or, in many cases, substitute the second "miss" for "you stuck up @#$%"). Now, here comes Guy D, who finds her attractive and wants to be polite, and he opens with a simple "Good evening". For the woman, given her previous experiences, there are a couple of key thoughts going at this moment, depending on the individual. #1: "If I don't respond, will this guy start yelling or threatening me, like Guy C did earlier?"; #2: "Can't I just walk down a street without people expecting me to do something for them? This is the fourth time today, leave me alone."; #3: "Should I wear something different/walk a different way/hide myself in some way to reduce the amount of times this happens?" (spoiler: there's probably almost nothing she can change about herself to reduce the amount of unwanted attention). This creates a phenomenon of many women trying to reduce how visible they are when walking in public; taking up less space on a bus or subway seat, for example. The best parallel I can think of in my own life is that I'm a high school teacher, and when I teach, I'm expected to be "on"; basically, throughout the day I'm performing to a certain extent (I'm watching my language in front of my students, I'm projecting my voice slightly differently, I'm on my feet, gesturing, etc.). When the day's done, I'm completely exhausted, because performance is hard work. But, on the bright side, I draw a paycheck for my efforts, and I get some personal satisfaction out of teaching subjects like US History and Civics. But if I had to be "on" like that every time I was even just walking down the block to get a falafel pita? Holy hell, I'd go insane. For a lot of women, or so they keep telling me, this is what it's like; even ignoring harassment is, in its way, a performance, because you'd love to let loose and just say how little you think of the guy doing it, but that fear of him turning it into something physical/sexual is too omnipresent. Though you're projecting a lot of this. Not to mention the fact that your basing a lot of your opinions on women you've spoken to yet had no time for me when expressed my opinion and when I said earlier that a lot of the women I've spoken to haven't had these negative experiences that you're making out is happening to the majority of women. That's also before we get into the fact that you are a highschool teacher, you deal with many students a day and surely you have to speak to a lot of female students passively on a regular basis that you don't personally teach, what if they don't want you speaking to them? Would that mean your harassing them or simply engaging them? I understand that there is a difference as it's not just talking to someone in the street but if we're going to take this to it's core that many people have expressed, that you should just "not talk to people you don't know" in case they don't wish to speak to you and feel harassed, then shouldn't that be respected in all scenarios of life, not just on the NY streets?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 8:40:29 GMT -5
The big thing the video is going for, I feel, is to make it clear to us guys that "walking in her shoes" is a mental exercise we need to engage in more often. Some of what I've gleaned from talking with women about this video over the last 24 hours: As said earlier, what your (the general "you", not the specific) intentions are when you say something to a woman who's minding her own business in public really doesn't count for much; what's much more meaningful are the feelings of the person who has been on the receiving end of the unwanted attention. Think about it from the woman's perspective; if she's had multiple people within a day, week, some short span of time make her feel self-conscious while walking around in public, she's already going to feel a lot of negative pressure and expectations around her. She's probably also had Guy A come up to her and say "You should smile more!", Guy B say "Great ass!", and Guy C say "Good morning, miss! ...I SAID GOOD MORNING, MISS" (or, in many cases, substitute the second "miss" for "you stuck up @#$%"). Now, here comes Guy D, who finds her attractive and wants to be polite, and he opens with a simple "Good evening". For the woman, given her previous experiences, there are a couple of key thoughts going at this moment, depending on the individual. #1: "If I don't respond, will this guy start yelling or threatening me, like Guy C did earlier?"; #2: "Can't I just walk down a street without people expecting me to do something for them? This is the fourth time today, leave me alone."; #3: "Should I wear something different/walk a different way/hide myself in some way to reduce the amount of times this happens?" (spoiler: there's probably almost nothing she can change about herself to reduce the amount of unwanted attention). This creates a phenomenon of many women trying to reduce how visible they are when walking in public; taking up less space on a bus or subway seat, for example. The best parallel I can think of in my own life is that I'm a high school teacher, and when I teach, I'm expected to be "on"; basically, throughout the day I'm performing to a certain extent (I'm watching my language in front of my students, I'm projecting my voice slightly differently, I'm on my feet, gesturing, etc.). When the day's done, I'm completely exhausted, because performance is hard work. But, on the bright side, I draw a paycheck for my efforts, and I get some personal satisfaction out of teaching subjects like US History and Civics. But if I had to be "on" like that every time I was even just walking down the block to get a falafel pita? Holy hell, I'd go insane. For a lot of women, or so they keep telling me, this is what it's like; even ignoring harassment is, in its way, a performance, because you'd love to let loose and just say how little you think of the guy doing it, but that fear of him turning it into something physical/sexual is too omnipresent. Though you're projecting a lot of this. Not to mention the fact that your basing a lot of your opinions on women you've spoken to yet had no time for me when expressed my opinion and when I said earlier that a lot of the women I've spoken to haven't had these negative experiences that you're making out is happening to the majority of women. That's also before we get into the fact that you are a highschool teacher, you deal with many students a day and surely you have to speak to a lot of female students passively on a regular basis that you don't personally teach, what if they don't want you speaking to them? Would that mean your harassing them or simply engaging them? I understand that there is a difference as it's not just talking to someone in the street but if we're going to take this to it's core that many people have expressed, that you should just "not talk to people you don't know" in case they don't wish to speak to you and feel harassed, then shouldn't that be respected in all scenarios of life, not just on the NY streets? Its about context. Talking to a someone you don't know is okay in situations that warrant it, but verbally cold-calling a stranger when they're just trying to commute somewhere isn't the place, especially since they're more likely to have their guard up. Any time you "take a situation to it's core" you end up dropping the context of a situation, which is the whole issue in my mind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 8:58:30 GMT -5
The idea that it's a certain 'class' of dude that becomes an entitled, aggressive douche is just erroneous. If anything, a guy with money and such is apt to be just as de-humanizing. It's not directly about class. It's about culture, which nowadays is most definitely oriented around class. Depends on how much money, doesn't it? A lot of the rich ARE entitled. Because that culture teaches power and influence. Many of the super poor, I.e. the guys in this video, they aren't entitled. They just don't have manners (lack of parents, lack of discipline, etc.) and think that just about *anything* goes, which is a cultural value that is, unfortunately, self-perpetuating. And they're a LOT more common than the rich, which means you're obviously going to see them starting problems more frequently than rich people do. A few times, I've stayed in Boston, a city with a lot of middle and upper class residents, and walked everywhere I went. Even late at night. Never had a problem or felt nervous. Want to know why? I didn't see ONE panhandler or crook hanging around anywhere. Nobody bothered me. A few regular dudes and ladies would compliment my choice in sports apparel, and that's it. Mind you, I'm not saying that middle class people don't commit crimes or act sexist, because there's certainly people who do. But if this woman was walking by herself in classic suburbia, she wouldn't be getting hassled anywhere near as much.
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Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,663
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Post by Kalmia on Oct 29, 2014 8:58:33 GMT -5
The first few times guys catcalled me it was kinda flattering. It quickly became creepy and annoying though and I just keep my head down and try to ignore it. It's especially creepy when guys don't read the situation and then make further comments, usually in a slightly aggressive or insulting way. It's as if they feel entitled to having a conversation (or more) with whatever woman walks their way, regardless of what the woman wants.
And, FYI, I've been catcalled on my own, with other friends, by guys walking down the street, by guys in cars, by guys doing construction work... From all angles and sources pretty much from the age of 15 onwards.
Thankfully I live in Tokyo now and (unless drunk) guys don't do that here. They just stare...
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Post by fuzzywarble, squat cobbler on Oct 29, 2014 9:04:44 GMT -5
Well...she shouldn't have dressed so suggestively
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Oct 29, 2014 10:36:26 GMT -5
Well...she shouldn't have dressed so suggestively Really hope that's a joke, haha.
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