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Post by DoubleDare on Nov 26, 2014 18:03:55 GMT -5
I can see the straw that broke the camels back aspect, like trayvon last year, even though that wasn't a cop (man that Zimmerman guy was an idiot). So any case where that was even a slight hint of this wouldve done this.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 18:43:17 GMT -5
To go back and repeat yet again: nobody knows what happened in terms of who initiated contact/struggle between Wilson and Brown. That's the entire point; there's no proof one way or the other. Additionally, the cop didn't know he had stolen the cigarellos he had; that incident hadn't been reported to the police. Additionally, we've spent an entire thread discussing the racial aspect of this; if you wouldn't mind, please address points other posters have already made numerous times. It's perfectly fine to disagree and have a conversation about it, but please acknowledge when these points have already been raised. Wait what? He didn't know he had them? The reports on Monday said he DID in fact know of the robbery and the fact that he noticed Brown's hat and socks color is what tipped him off in the first place after he told them to get out of the street Considering the robbery wasn't reported, that'd be pretty tough. EDIT: Reading up on it, nobody from the store called the police after the robbery, but they believe a customer might have. Nevertheless, the robbery and call had nothing to do with anything that went down between Brown and Wilson, unless the DA/Ferguson PD/whomever have completely changed their story on it.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 26, 2014 18:47:29 GMT -5
Wait what? He didn't know he had them? The reports on Monday said he DID in fact know of the robbery and the fact that he noticed Brown's hat and socks color is what tipped him off in the first place after he told them to get out of the street Considering the robbery wasn't reported, that'd be pretty tough. So you're saying the DA blatantly lied in his speech then
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 18:48:22 GMT -5
Considering the robbery wasn't reported, that'd be pretty tough. So you're saying the DA blatantly lied in his speech then Considering the written account of "Witness #40", it's incredibly difficult to take anything McCulloch says seriously.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Nov 26, 2014 19:11:01 GMT -5
Considering the robbery wasn't reported, that'd be pretty tough. So you're saying the DA blatantly lied in his speech then Hell yeah he did. Numerous times, and there are video and photo evidence of that. (See, "Darren Wilson never stood over Mike Brown" as an example)
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Post by mysterydriver on Nov 26, 2014 20:39:48 GMT -5
The Ferguson DA has a history that does seem to imply he's a possible risk of bias.
His father was a police officer killed in the line of duty.
He lost a leg to cancer as a teen. Therefore: “I couldn’t become a policeman, so being county prosecutor is the next best thing,” McCulloch once told the Post-Dispatch.
He is the president of an organization that did a T-Shirt Sale to raise funds for Darren Wilson's defense fund. (This, however, was revealed to be a third-party using the 'Backstoppers' website to create one. Therefore, an unintentional conflict of interest The DA was probably not aware.)
In 1997, McCulloch gave - using the power of the grand jury, but without informing it - a subpoena to the police in order to identify a whistleblower who was acting lawfully. He first claimed the fax contained a threat but later conceded that there was no threat and no crime, but denied any wrongdoing. The whistleblower had to quit his job.
And then there is this, which I consider a very telling thing:
In 2000, two undercover officers, a police officer and a Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) officer, shot and killed two unarmed black men in the parking lot of a Jack in the Box fast-food restaurant in Berkeley, Missouri. In 2001, the officers told a grand jury convened by McCulloch that the suspects tried to escape arrest and then drove toward them; the jury declined to indict. McCulloch told the public that every witness had testified to confirm this version, but St. Louis Post-Dispatch journalist Michael Sorkin reviewed the previously secret grand jury tapes and found only three of 13 officers testified that the car was moving forward. A subsequent federal investigation found that the men were unarmed and that their car had not moved forward when the officers fired 21 shots; although, federal investigators decided that the shooting was justified because the officers feared for their safety.
McCulloch also drew controversy when he said of the victims: "These guys were bums." Also, he made sure to point out (while blaming the media for making the dead men folk hero) that both men killed had been busted for dealing drugs, which keys in with his decision to release the convenience store video the same day Darren Wilson's name was released. A common theme of showing "See, this wasn't a good person!"
These things do not add up to bias. They, do however, bring to mind why some might not push for a special prosecutor, as suggested by The National Bar Association.
But what is done is most definitely done.
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Post by Rolent Tex on Nov 26, 2014 22:12:51 GMT -5
All these douchebags around the area up there can f***ing burn in hell since some of them have no f***ing respect. My 92 year old grandfather had some of these f***ing chuckleheads messing with him while he was trying to do his grocery shopping...taking his shopping cart and moving it to the end of the aisle and taking things from him and basically challenging him to do something about it. Its shitheads like this that are giving peaceful protesters a bad name. My family lives across the river from St. Louis and I was hoping they wouldn't have to deal with the idiots but apparently they do. Here's a great idea...lets "protest" by f***ing with an elderly World War 2 vet for no damn reason. Disgusted.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 22:30:15 GMT -5
Ugh, now something's popping up from some folks on my social media feeds that's actively making me angry.
Not to divulge particulars, but I grew up in and around the Catholic high school I attended back in the early 2000s. Last year, one of our graduating seniors was murdered by a lunatic who claimed to be enraged by American foreign policy, and randomly selected this kid as a victim (the killer had also killed gay couples in Washington state). The killer was thankfully captured and brought to justice, and found to be a complete nut.
It obviously hit our school incredibly hard, and we still feel it in a lot of ways, even had some cable news channels on campus earlier this year talking about it.
Now, given that the killer said he was enraged by American foreign policy, you could literally describe his actions as terrorism; he wasn't affiliated with any group, but that's what moulded his motivations. But now I'm seeing some people, including people I genuinely call friends, using this to argue "Why is Ferguson such a big deal, and this isn't?", or getting political by asking why the President commented on Ferguson or the Trayvon Martin case but not this one.
Speaking as a lifelong member of that school community, it enrages me to see people using it like that, even if they don't mean it in poor taste and are genuine in their desire to highlight a true tragedy. For one thing, our student's killer was a lone nut; a dangerous, awful killer, but a lone nut. Darren Wilson is a police officer, and represents the power structure in Ferguson. HUGE difference. Also, minor detail I realize, our student's killer WAS ACTUALLY CAUGHT, ARRESTED, AND CHARGED.
Finally, it speaks to a titanic ignorance and constant desire some people demonstrate to try and equate the experiences of white America and black America. Our student's death was horrendous, a nightmare for the whole community, students, teachers, alumni, etc. But it's absurd to try and equate this with why there's so much anger in Ferguson; again, it's not just about Mike Brown and Darren Wilson, that situation is as big as it is due to literally centuries of legal policies and actions/inaction on matters where race is a large consideration. As a white guy, the death of the student from my school doesn't leave me feeling afraid to go outside, to drive my car, or to interact with random African Americans. The black community seemingly cannot say that as it pertains to interacting with largely white police forces and legal/political structures built on a history of racial apartheid.
I'm sorry, but I need to vent about this. A very real tragedy hit our community, and people are using it to justify their own prejudices and biases in a way that's disingenuous, at best.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 26, 2014 22:32:09 GMT -5
To go back and repeat yet again: nobody knows what happened in terms of who initiated contact/struggle between Wilson and Brown. That's the entire point; there's no proof one way or the other. Additionally, the cop didn't know he had stolen the cigarellos he had; that incident hadn't been reported to the police. Additionally, we've spent an entire thread discussing the racial aspect of this; if you wouldn't mind, please address points other posters have already made numerous times. It's perfectly fine to disagree and have a conversation about it, but please acknowledge when these points have already been raised. Wait what? He didn't know he had them? The reports on Monday said he DID in fact know of the robbery and the fact that he noticed Brown's hat and socks color is what tipped him off in the first place after he told them to get out of the street Those are things that were added to Wilson's report regarding the shooting more than one week later when the footage of the robbery came to light. In other words, he did not know about it at all until everyone did, then they changed the report to say that he knew it all along. That was a load of crap, and a blatant load of it at that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 22:51:07 GMT -5
Isn't there literally a video of Michael Brown paying for those same packs of cigars he "stole?"
...not that it justifies him being killed either way, but...
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Nov 26, 2014 22:54:32 GMT -5
Now some people want to try and block the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade for this stuff. Now that is just being an asshole.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 26, 2014 22:54:38 GMT -5
Isn't there literally a video of Michael Brown paying for those same packs of cigars he "stole?" ...not that it justifies him being killed either way, but... I don't actually think so. His friend that was with him admitted that they stole some stuff after they paid for other things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 22:58:26 GMT -5
Isn't there literally a video of Michael Brown paying for those same packs of cigars he "stole?" ...not that it justifies him being killed either way, but... I don't actually think so. His friend that was with him admitted that they stole some stuff after they paid for other things. I'm looking at a video of him apparently paying for something.
Whatever he says they stole it wasn't those cigars....which is the only damn thing you hear about them stealing. EDIT: This video:
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 26, 2014 23:21:29 GMT -5
I don't actually think so. His friend that was with him admitted that they stole some stuff after they paid for other things. I'm looking at a video of him apparently paying for something.
Whatever he says they stole it wasn't those cigars....which is the only damn thing you hear about them stealing. EDIT: This video: Can't really tell from that angle, and that's not the only angle that's been presented. His friend's testimony does say that Brown stole the cigarillos, but it remains the case that Wilson had no clue about any theft at the time of the confrontation. And, as you say, even if he is guilty, it wouldn't justify shooting him, regardless.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 23:41:53 GMT -5
Can't really tell from that angle, and that's not the only angle that's been presented. His friend's testimony does say that Brown stole the cigarillos, but it remains the case that Wilson had no clue about any theft at the time of the confrontation. And, as you say, even if he is guilty, it wouldn't justify shooting him, regardless. It's really just about character assassination at this point anyway and the police using whatever they can to make it look like he deserved to die...SOP.
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Post by Rolent Tex on Nov 27, 2014 0:40:51 GMT -5
So two jackasses were arrested in St. Louis for plotting to blow up the Gateway Arch and murder St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch and Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson.
The dipshits were arrested after buying a "pipe bomb" from undercover agents and planning to buy more. Ahem. Let me channel my inner Randy Orton. Stupid stupid stupid!!!!!
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 27, 2014 0:59:43 GMT -5
So two jackasses were arrested in St. Louis for plotting to blow up the Gateway Arch and murder St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch and Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson. The dipshits were arrested after buying a "pipe bomb" from undercover agents and planning to buy more. Ahem. Let me channel my inner Randy Orton. Stupid stupid stupid!!!!! Thankfully these idiots really were idiots. I just wish all people with such intentions were that stupid.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Nov 27, 2014 1:20:42 GMT -5
One of the main problems I am seeing is that the extremes on both side are trying to use race baiting and fear mongering to make a profit and create power.
I'm not saying that there isn't a race problem in this country, there is.
I find the reasonable people on both sides of the issue have admitted that we do have racial issues. I believe that the officer was justified in his actions that day. I also believe that the incident was handled in a very poor manner. I feel many of the problems in the case came from miscommunication from the people in power. I also do not believe that Mike Brown deserved to die and my heart goes out to his family who must be suffering horrificly right now. I do hope we can work as a country to develop differrent but effective procedures to neutralize a dangerous situation without having to resort to gunshots which nearly always lead to death.
However I do understand the issues from the other side and do understand the complaints as well and have tried to be as sensitive to those feelings as possible. Far few have really tried to understand both sides of the issue ad even few have tried to show respect for people on opposite sides of the issue.
On the same side I believe that while justified we need to make systematic changes in our society where guns become a last resort and work to develop ways to neutralize situations like these without someone losing a life. Citizens shouldn't have to fear getting abuse from cops and cops shouldn't fear getting abuse when they are trying to protect and serve.
With that said I believe that we have issues in this country that go beyond and include race. Socioeconomic problems where crime, hatred and being uneducated are not only considered social norms but accepted as a way of life. This isn't a white or a black problem but an american problem.
I've seen some on the far right say that they deserved to be shot because they were animals. That is a notion that is simply disgusting and I've unfriended people on facebook because of those words. Killing is never an outcome that we should strive to have.
On the other side I've seen friends say that whites should be ashamed of racism and should pay for the sins of the past and that no whites understand what blacks go through. I disagree with that notion as well. I am ashamed of racism in this country but from people of all races. I am not ashamed personally because I try and treat everyone with respect regardless of their race, creed or beliefs.
I won't claim to fully understand what it is like to be a black in America because I am not one. However, having spent most of my life in a low income area that is 75% black I do have a understanding of these issues and can empathize with those issues. Because of that I can understand the anger from this case. I believe the anger is justified and is the product of generations of institutional racism and poor leadership regarding race relations and poverty in this country. It would take me a long time to write thos issues down.
The main divide I have seen is that few people are willing to give respect to anyone on the other side of the issue. even though I am not on the same opinion on this topic as most here I have enjoyed reading these opinions and have found many of them to be eye opening and have gotten me to really look at it from a different angle. I have also seen people on the other side ask questions insteaf of attacking.
This situation stinks. My only hope is that we as a country can somehow heal and come closer though I fear that the country will become more divided.
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Nov 27, 2014 4:42:52 GMT -5
Both sides of this argument are just refusing to listen to the other side regardless of what facts are presented. Maybe the discussion will be more productive in a few days? This is so true.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 27, 2014 11:36:37 GMT -5
Both sides of this argument are just refusing to listen to the other side regardless of what facts are presented. Maybe the discussion will be more productive in a few days? This is so true. What facts? The entire point here is that nobody has almost any facts. Beyond that, the facts of this particular case aren't what's driving the anger and frustration here, the larger historical and social contexts are, but that's been stated a million times already.
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