wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 16:38:41 GMT -5
When did Heyman mention Cesaro? As a throwaway line after talking about Brock for 5 minutes? I am glad you're willing to defend your asinine booking decisions, Vinnie Mac. That you think Cesaro is this big star waiting to burst out on WWE television and paint one of the reasons he is doing badly at the fact his manager also talked about someone else shows how easily people want to give it to him. He's a talented wrestler. An extremely talented one. But if he was a big star waiting to break out that kind of thing wouldn't hinder him at all. Look at Mizdow. The whole gimmick is that he never gets the credit he deserves. But the fans are dragging him through. If Cesaro wasn't getting the credit the mass audience though he deserved they would have shouted about it. Mizdow struck gold with something silly and has made it work, and it's difficult to do that. But people through a lack of knowledge on how WWE actually works are the ones viewing it ass backwards. That they should give the money and the fame to guys that haven't earned it yet is the backwards assertion to me. He simply hasn't connected like a big WWE star would have by now, and Vince is absolutely right. |
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Johnny
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Post by Johnny on Dec 30, 2014 16:45:27 GMT -5
i'm a HUGE fan of Cesaro, but i've gotta agree with wcc2 here. Cesaro has had plenty of opportunity to shine over the last 2 years, and it hasn't clicked yet. It's clear he's not in their immediate plans. Its frustrating that they didn't capitalise on his popularity around Wrestlemania, but they know full well that delaying his push by a few years will only increase peoples desire to see him succeed.
He's so close to being perfect for the main event, but there is *something* missing.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 30, 2014 16:46:24 GMT -5
When did Heyman mention Cesaro? As a throwaway line after talking about Brock for 5 minutes? I am glad you're willing to defend your asinine booking decisions, Vinnie Mac. That you think Cesaro is this big star waiting to burst out on WWE television and paint one of the reasons he is doing badly at the fact his manager also talked about someone else shows how easily people want to give it to him. He's a talented wrestler. An extremely talented one. But if he was a big star waiting to break out that kind of thing wouldn't hinder him at all. Look at Mizdow. The whole gimmick is that he never gets the credit he deserves. But the fans are dragging him through. If Cesaro wasn't getting the credit the mass audience though he deserved they would have shouted about it. Mizdow struck gold with something silly and has made it work, and it's difficult to do that. But people through a lack of knowledge on how WWE actually works are the ones viewing it ass backwards. That they should give the money and the fame to guys that haven't earned it yet is the backwards assertion to me. He simply hasn't connected like a big WWE star would have by now, and Vince is absolutely right. Has he struggled to connect? Well, if you ignore the fact that when he was doing the swing and having good matches as a semi-face, then yes he has always struggled. Granted, having him work with a mouthpiece who never mentions him and instead talks about someone else, while the announcers talk about that manager and the heel that he's promoting while ignoring you, then yes it can be tough to get over as a main eventer. Cesaro isn't the greatest promo in the world, but he's been done no favors in the presentation department, and outright sabotaged at points as well. |
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 30, 2014 16:52:56 GMT -5
i'm a HUGE fan of Cesaro, but i've gotta agree with wcc2 here. Cesaro has had plenty of opportunity to shine over the last 2 years, and it hasn't clicked yet. It's clear he's not in their immediate plans. Its frustrating that they didn't capitalise on his popularity around Wrestlemania, but they know full well that delaying his push by a few years will only increase peoples desire to see him succeed. He's so close to being perfect for the main event, but there is *something* missing. He has had opportunity, if that means just being around for 2 years. It is clear that management and creative have never gotten behind him though. There is zero reason why he shouldn't be in a program near the top, even if that means being the muscle for someone like Rollins. The only reason the Post-Wrestlemania booking of Cesaro isn't the worst decision made this year is because Batista won the royal rumble (though that worked out ok in the end) |
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Johnny
Don Corleone
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Post by Johnny on Dec 30, 2014 16:58:33 GMT -5
i'm a HUGE fan of Cesaro, but i've gotta agree with wcc2 here. Cesaro has had plenty of opportunity to shine over the last 2 years, and it hasn't clicked yet. It's clear he's not in their immediate plans. Its frustrating that they didn't capitalise on his popularity around Wrestlemania, but they know full well that delaying his push by a few years will only increase peoples desire to see him succeed. He's so close to being perfect for the main event, but there is *something* missing. He has had opportunity, if that means just being around for 2 years. It is clear that management and creative have never gotten behind him though. There is zero reason why he shouldn't be in a program near the top, even if that means being the muscle for someone like Rollins. The only reason the Post-Wrestlemania booking of Cesaro isn't the worst decision made this year is because Batista won the royal rumble (though that worked out ok in the end) he's had a mid card title run, main evented raw, and won the battle royal thingy. that's hardly "just being around". I agree, that if I was running the show he would have been firmly in the upper card this year, but I don't believe he's been ruined in anyway this year. He'll get more opportunities once he's more seasoned. |
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 30, 2014 17:14:14 GMT -5
He has had opportunity, if that means just being around for 2 years. It is clear that management and creative have never gotten behind him though. There is zero reason why he shouldn't be in a program near the top, even if that means being the muscle for someone like Rollins. The only reason the Post-Wrestlemania booking of Cesaro isn't the worst decision made this year is because Batista won the royal rumble (though that worked out ok in the end) he's had a mid card title run, main evented raw, and won the battle royal thingy. that's hardly "just being around". I agree, that if I was running the show he would have been firmly in the upper card this year, but I don't believe he's been ruined in anyway this year. He'll get more opportunities once he's more seasoned. I'm pretty confident that he's going to be around awhile at least, so he should get those opportunities. I think management sees him as the guy that can go out there and have an awesome match with anyone. He is Strong Ziggler. Actually Strong Ziggler isn't a bad comparison...Ziggler also has some deficiencies in the microphone department. |
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 17:45:49 GMT -5
That you think Cesaro is this big star waiting to burst out on WWE television and paint one of the reasons he is doing badly at the fact his manager also talked about someone else shows how easily people want to give it to him. He's a talented wrestler. An extremely talented one. But if he was a big star waiting to break out that kind of thing wouldn't hinder him at all. Look at Mizdow. The whole gimmick is that he never gets the credit he deserves. But the fans are dragging him through. If Cesaro wasn't getting the credit the mass audience though he deserved they would have shouted about it. Mizdow struck gold with something silly and has made it work, and it's difficult to do that. But people through a lack of knowledge on how WWE actually works are the ones viewing it ass backwards. That they should give the money and the fame to guys that haven't earned it yet is the backwards assertion to me. He simply hasn't connected like a big WWE star would have by now, and Vince is absolutely right. Has he struggled to connect? Well, if you ignore the fact that when he was doing the swing and having good matches as a semi-face, then yes he has always struggled. Granted, having him work with a mouthpiece who never mentions him and instead talks about someone else, while the announcers talk about that manager and the heel that he's promoting while ignoring you, then yes it can be tough to get over as a main eventer. Cesaro isn't the greatest promo in the world, but he's been done no favors in the presentation department, and outright sabotaged at points as well. A swing and an uppercut do not a big WWE star make. He hasn't been sabotaged at all, and while I think he's talented, I don't think that right now there is anyone higher than him on the heel side of the roster that he should be above of. That could obviously change once he finds something that clicks, but he hasn't found that thing that sends him over the top yet. They haven't sabotaged him at all. They were the ones that let him have his Wrestlemania moment in the first place, remember. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 17:49:46 GMT -5
Last night's promo aside, it baffles me just how badly his stock has fallen in the last 8 months. Like, he's the biggest example of how NOT to book someone that I've seen come along in ages Dude simply got Ryback'd. Hopefully the WWE realize they dun goofed and hit the hard reset button like they did with Ryback |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 30, 2014 17:56:09 GMT -5
Has he struggled to connect? Well, if you ignore the fact that when he was doing the swing and having good matches as a semi-face, then yes he has always struggled. Granted, having him work with a mouthpiece who never mentions him and instead talks about someone else, while the announcers talk about that manager and the heel that he's promoting while ignoring you, then yes it can be tough to get over as a main eventer. Cesaro isn't the greatest promo in the world, but he's been done no favors in the presentation department, and outright sabotaged at points as well. A swing and an uppercut do not a big WWE star make. He hasn't been sabotaged at all, and while I think he's talented, I don't think that right now there is anyone higher than him on the heel side of the roster that he should be above of. That could obviously change once he finds something that clicks, but he hasn't found that thing that sends him over the top yet. They haven't sabotaged him at all. They were the ones that let him have his Wrestlemania moment in the first place, remember. I just realized one thing that's driving you wrong, here: You think "the ability to connect with the audience" is a thing, and it's not. Even so, I still can't figure out why you're so motivated to argue that Cesaro has a deficit of it, to the point of frantically arguing about how, when he DID connect with the audience, it somehow doesn't count. I guess it only counts if someone can connect with the audience no matter how they're booked, which... I mean, that's never existed in the history of ever, so not sure how useful a concept it is. |
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Post by angryfan on Dec 30, 2014 18:00:17 GMT -5
Has he struggled to connect? Well, if you ignore the fact that when he was doing the swing and having good matches as a semi-face, then yes he has always struggled. Granted, having him work with a mouthpiece who never mentions him and instead talks about someone else, while the announcers talk about that manager and the heel that he's promoting while ignoring you, then yes it can be tough to get over as a main eventer. Cesaro isn't the greatest promo in the world, but he's been done no favors in the presentation department, and outright sabotaged at points as well. A swing and an uppercut do not a big WWE star make. He hasn't been sabotaged at all, and while I think he's talented, I don't think that right now there is anyone higher than him on the heel side of the roster that he should be above of. That could obviously change once he finds something that clicks, but he hasn't found that thing that sends him over the top yet. They haven't sabotaged him at all. They were the ones that let him have his Wrestlemania moment in the first place, remember. We both know that no matter what he "finds", he'll always be "too Swiss". Vince said it, it's on the record, and unless he does what Apu did when he "became more American" in one episode of the Simpsons, that will not ever change. Taking Cesaro out of it, the booking trend they used with him (and so many others) baffles me. "Oh, that guy had a good match, the crowd loved him out there. Hey, let's go ahead and change the stuff he was doing that got cheered to something less appealing, and we'll see if the change and losing streak don't affect him". They did it with Cesaro, they did it with Sandow, they did it to a point with Wyatt, and if you go back over the years, you see it happen often. Point blank, THAT needs to change. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 18:26:42 GMT -5
You're not hearing what we're saying. And no one steps through all 4 sets of ropes because that would be dumb. Everyone who heard that promo heard something that was incorrect. Even if he went on to clarify what you assumed he meant, he'd only dig a deeper whole.HAHAHAHA You said "whole" when you meant "hole". Don't try to fix it. You'll just dig yourself deeper. You're not ready bro. You're just not connecting. You should just be fired. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 30, 2014 18:49:51 GMT -5
Have Cena fight Rusev at Wrestlemania. Cena is just about to win when Cesaro shows up and clocks Cena, costing him the match.
The next night on RAW, Lana is revealed as Cesaro's new manager. The second guy in her growing stable of international super athletes who will bring doom to America.
That way, he can focus on wrestling, and leave the mic work to someone more capable, and get over in the process by screwing Cena and at least getting a few decent high profile matches out of the feud.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Dec 30, 2014 19:15:01 GMT -5
Have Cena fight Rusev at Wrestlemania. Cena is just about to win when Cesaro shows up and clocks Cena, costing him the match. The next night on RAW, Lana is revealed as Cesaro's new manager. The second guy in her growing stable of international super athletes who will bring doom to America. That way, he can focus on wrestling, and leave the mic work to someone more capable, and get over in the process by screwing Cena and at least getting a few decent high profile matches out of the feud. ... A Cesaro/Rusev tag team managed by Lana would possibly be one of the most badass things ever. And probably one of the most alliterative, what with The Swiss Superman, The Bulgarian Brute and The Ravishing Russian being all in one group. I'd call them EuroSmash. |
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 19:16:35 GMT -5
A swing and an uppercut do not a big WWE star make. He hasn't been sabotaged at all, and while I think he's talented, I don't think that right now there is anyone higher than him on the heel side of the roster that he should be above of. That could obviously change once he finds something that clicks, but he hasn't found that thing that sends him over the top yet. They haven't sabotaged him at all. They were the ones that let him have his Wrestlemania moment in the first place, remember. I just realized one thing that's driving you wrong, here: You think "the ability to connect with the audience" is a thing, and it's not. Even so, I still can't figure out why you're so motivated to argue that Cesaro has a deficit of it, to the point of frantically arguing about how, when he DID connect with the audience, it somehow doesn't count. I guess it only counts if someone can connect with the audience no matter how they're booked, which... I mean, that's never existed in the history of ever, so not sure how useful a concept it is. No, it definitely is a thing. It's hard to quantify, you can't just bottle it and give it to anyone, hence it being difficult to just make absolutely anyone a star, but it is a thing. Some people might connect straight away, or relatively quickly, and some people might take years. But you can't tell me you can't tell the difference between anyone that has made it in the WWE vs anyone that hasn't. Or tell me the difference between Baron Corbin and Bull Dempsey right now. One guy has had zero mic time, one vignette package, and a few squash matches. He connected with his audience instantly. One guy has had promo time, vignettes and loads of squash matches, but started before his rival and has actually had somewhat of an angle with Mojo Rawley...that audience just doesn't care as much. As for why I'm arguing? Well it's a message board isn't it? Why not debate the point, even if it means I'm going against the grain. To be clear, I completely acknowledge that he connected with a certain section of fans, that appreciate good wrestling. He probably connects very well with the German and wider European audience. But he is not connecting with the wider, mass WWE audience. If he had, or if he had shown the ability to do so, he would be on the way to being a big star right now. You're never going to create a main eventer by jobbing them out to a jobber and giving them no mic time. But it's about moving up the ranks. A jobber can become a solid mid card act with a few minutes on TV. A mid carder can become an upper mid-carder if they generate a solid following. An upper-mid carder can become a main eventer if they've developed their character enough to be an interesting enough feud with devoted TV time to a variety of other guys. And a main eventer can win the main event of Wrestlemania ahead of established plans if the crowd simply won't let the company book it any other way. It's tough to quantify how or what is making people connect, but you can definitely see it in terms of being deserving to be elevated above guys that are currently above them. |
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,037
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 30, 2014 19:17:58 GMT -5
Him playing second banana to Brock while being managed by Heyman is what hurt the massive amount of momentum he had after winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal at Mania. I don't understand how anyone can say otherwise. His seesaw booking at that time didn't help him either. But hey, "Too Swiss" and "Brass Rings" and all that nonsense.
I think Claudio is stubborn enough to believe that even after all this, he can still make it work. That's why I don't think he'll be leaving anytime soon.
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 19:28:51 GMT -5
A swing and an uppercut do not a big WWE star make. He hasn't been sabotaged at all, and while I think he's talented, I don't think that right now there is anyone higher than him on the heel side of the roster that he should be above of. That could obviously change once he finds something that clicks, but he hasn't found that thing that sends him over the top yet. They haven't sabotaged him at all. They were the ones that let him have his Wrestlemania moment in the first place, remember. We both know that no matter what he "finds", he'll always be "too Swiss". Vince said it, it's on the record, and unless he does what Apu did when he "became more American" in one episode of the Simpsons, that will not ever change. Taking Cesaro out of it, the booking trend they used with him (and so many others) baffles me. "Oh, that guy had a good match, the crowd loved him out there. Hey, let's go ahead and change the stuff he was doing that got cheered to something less appealing, and we'll see if the change and losing streak don't affect him". They did it with Cesaro, they did it with Sandow, they did it to a point with Wyatt, and if you go back over the years, you see it happen often. Point blank, THAT needs to change. He'll never always be too Swiss. Vince gave an honest answer as to why he 'maybe isn't connecting'. It's not as if he's holding him down because he's Swiss. Did he hold the Iron Sheik down because he was Iranian? It's a point about being comfortable in a character that doesn't speak his natural language. The booking trend is the reason why the business is sustainable, and why they showcase the moneymakers. They have to know they are moneymakers before giving them the spotlight to earn it. Cesaro was supposed to be a heel. They took away his ability to say 'We the people'. They took away his swing. I'm pretty confident they wanted to see how into him he was as a character behind a move and a catchphrase. What else did he show us? Nothing. Hence the demotion. What did they do with Wyatt? They built him up to the point where he could be fed to Cena, because 7 months into his time on the main roster with that character, that was his JOB. Do you not think it is absolutely phenomenal that someone with as limited time on the roster as Bray Wyatt had, was trusted with being the heel against the company's franchise at the biggest stage of the year? I do. People saw that as a burial, or cutting the wings out from Bray. Nonsense. It was his proving ground. He became a great act in the upper mid-card, and connected enough to have a chance against Cena. He was a credible threat to Cena during their programme, got taken off of TV, removed of his henchman so he could become more of a singles threat, and is now winning in PPV main events. They don't deliberately want anyone to fail. But these guys have to prove themselves to be deserving of the bigger opportunities. Bray Wyatt is going to be one of the company's biggest stars, and his performances against Cena will go a long way to giving the decision makers the confidence he can handle it. For others it's more small scale. There might be certain other issues. Ryder acknowledged that they wanted him to be able to show a more serious side, and not just do the comedy. Likely same with Mizdow. They sent him way back down to the point where he had nothing, but he earnt his minutes to the point where he's now a solid mid-card act. If he can add a serious edge then he's got a great shot of getting further than he was before. It really makes me laugh that people A: think the company deliberately wants to make it harder for people to be stars, and B: think that the talent should be handed things they haven't proven themselves worthy of yet. Both points suggest a real lack of appreciation for WWE in their minds. Firstly that they are incredibly dumb (which they aren't, although I'm sure that point will get a lot of people joking that they are) and that secondly, being a star in the WWE is some easy thing. People may have thought Vince was being too harsh when he said people weren't stepping up, but it's because the standards to be a star at the very top of the industry are high, and he wants people with the ability to do it. Connecting with a mass audience is way harder than appealing to the comedy guys, or the wrestling guys, or the fan girls. The ability to draw everyone in to some extent makes the star. |
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 19:36:21 GMT -5
Him playing second banana to Brock while being managed by Heyman is what hurt the massive amount of momentum he had after winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal at Mania. I don't understand how anyone can say otherwise. His seesaw booking at that time didn't help him either. But hey, "Too Swiss" and "Brass Rings" and all that nonsense. I think Claudio is stubborn enough to believe that even after all this, he can still make it work. That's why I don't think he'll be leaving anytime soon. Reeeeeeeeally? Is it really the case that he was a big star waiting to break out and fans just couldn't get behind him because Heyman would sometimes talk about Brock first? Even when Heyman was on commentary talking up Cesaro and they were hashtagging their segments with King of Swing? If he had momentum beyond the Europeans and the wrestling-first fans, it would have stayed through that. But I'd like to think he can make it work and I hope he does stick around. I think he will do. I really like him, and I really hope I see the day that he and the company put it all together. |
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 30, 2014 19:53:46 GMT -5
Him playing second banana to Brock while being managed by Heyman is what hurt the massive amount of momentum he had after winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal at Mania. I don't understand how anyone can say otherwise. His seesaw booking at that time didn't help him either. But hey, "Too Swiss" and "Brass Rings" and all that nonsense. I think Claudio is stubborn enough to believe that even after all this, he can still make it work. That's why I don't think he'll be leaving anytime soon. Reeeeeeeeally? Is it really the case that he was a big star waiting to break out and fans just couldn't get behind him because Heyman would sometimes talk about Brock first? Even when Heyman was on commentary talking up Cesaro and they were hashtagging their segments with King of Swing? If he had momentum beyond the Europeans and the wrestling-first fans, it would have stayed through that. But I'd like to think he can make it work and I hope he does stick around. I think he will do. I really like him, and I really hope I see the day that he and the company put it all together. You're correct in saying that Heyman on commentary did put over Cesaro big however, a lot of promo time that Heyman had, even during his segments with Cesaro, were spent trolling the fans about Brock ending the streak. Most fans came away from segments with Heyman with "My Client, Brock Lesnar, conquered the streak!" and "I'm the 1, behind the 1, in 21-1" on their minds more than "The King of Swing". The "My Client" quote became probably the biggest meme of the year from WWE and that dominated most Heyman segments while managing Cesaro. Cesaro and "The King of Swing" felt, to most people, like an afterthought after all that. Why should fans put their trust in Cesaro as a legitimate star if he's treated like a transitional hobby by his manager? That's not what is supposed to happen when a wrestler has a manager. He's supposed to be THE focus for that manager. Granted. As I said, his parity booking played a big part in his momentum being halted after WrestleMania but his time with Heyman did not help. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 30, 2014 19:58:15 GMT -5
Guy gets over as a babyface with a dynamic moveset.
Booking solution: turn him heel, take away his moves.
Guy has all the wrestling ability in the world and arguably more natural strength and agility (not high-flying, but in terms of balance and coordination) than anybody else on the roster, capable of absurd athletic feats. Unfortunately, while he has some personality and quirkiness to him, he's not much for cutting "WWE style" promos.
Booking solution: Job him out in short matches and force him to cut promos in front of the live audience.
How about this? You have a freaking superman on your roster who can have a great match with nearly anybody on the roster, but he's not a great talker, SO YOU GIVE HIM A MOUTHPIECE AND HAVE HIM CUT PROMOS BACKSTAGE.
Claudio Castagnoli spent years touring the entire freaking planet honing his craft as a wrestler, and WWE has decided "Nah, that's not good enough, we need to push you out of your comfort zone and emphasize any and all of your weaknesses while doing all we can to distract from your clearly superior abilities that you've spent years demonstrating across at least three continents."
Tell me, did WWE try doing this with Hulk Hogan? Ted DiBiase? Curt Hennig? Did they hire these guys on the strength of what abilities they had demonstrated in various promotions around America and the rest of the world, and then quickly say "Now screw all that, you need to get over OUR way"?
You want to argue that Cesaro should be able to cut a decent promo in front of a live audience, fine; Bret Hart had to learn that, too...but they didn't force him into it two years after he was hired, and make his run and push hinge on it. They let him wear shades, gave him Jimmy Hart as a mouthpiece and Jim Neidhart as a comic foil, and let him develop over time.
But dear God, WWE, do us all a favor and stop trying to "find the next Austin or Rock", which translates to "force all of our wrestlers to try and become the next Austin or Rock, even if it doesn't suit their strengths and draws out the weaknesses". It's so incredibly stupid, and a huge reason why you're an absolute nightmare to sit through.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 30, 2014 20:01:10 GMT -5
The more I think about it, Drakesaro would be a hell of a gimmick.
After all, he does go from 0 to 100 real quick.
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