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Post by Andy Martin on Jan 3, 2015 2:05:21 GMT -5
The guys with the talent rise to the top in the WWE. And it's handled carefully so they know when they are promoting someone, it's because they deserve it. It isn't decided on a whim and care is taken to make sure any promotion is justified. For example everyone assumes the Bray Wyatt loss to Cena was bad booking, because it stopped his momentum. Only it didn't. He had done extraordinarily well to the point where he was trusted to be the heel against the company franchise at Wrestlemania. That was his job, and he proved himself so much through that programme, that he is now being elevated again. And further down the roster, everyone is judged on how they make use of their smaller minutes. Do well with them, you get a bit more time. Do well with that extra time, you get more angles, do well in the angles, you get a title run. There are clear examples of this in action every single week. Excuses are constantly made for performers that didn't have what it takes to rise beyond what was their true level in a company that markets to a mass audience. If they were connecting, they would be promoted. The status quo in the WWE in terms of how they decide who they promote is there because it works. It works because it only people who deserve it succeed, and the definition of "deserving" means you succeed. When people who succeed are the ones who deserve it, then that means the system works. The system works because the system works. Your argument is a circle. This has nothing to do with the actual argument, but I read this part in Matthew McConaughey's voice.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 8:35:49 GMT -5
No let's be serious here, Randy Orton has personality. He can completely go out there and cut a promo with ease. It may not be a Rock or even Cena style promo because that's not his character (and probably largely why he's never been made 'The Man' in the company) but he deserves to be where he is, easily. Brock Lesnar also easily deserves to be where he is. Ziggler, Del Rio, Reigns, they can all do it. They can all be funny, or serious, or something in between, and sell themselves and a match. It's not about having Rock like mic skills, it's about being able to connect and demonstrate who you are to sell the match. Brock, because of his UFC exploits, is one of the only people in the world that can sell the match by standing in the middle of the ring, saying nothing and throwing off a wink. Of course, he can actually talk, but he finds it hard to go with a script. The difference is he's already mainstream star and has a previous WWE main event run to demonstrate his worth. Bad News Barrett may look like a catchphrase but it isn't just that. The whole gimmick has allowed him to demonstrate a side of his personality he's never really shown before. He now has that cock-sure swagger that proper stars have, and looks to be enjoying himself out there, rather than looking like he's trying to be someone he's not. If they go with BNB for 2 years, and then try and put him in a spot truly at the top of the company, I can completely see them taking the Bad News name away and referring to him as Wade Barrett again, like taking the rapping away from Cena. That will happen if he gets to the point where his personality is more than the gimmick, and I think he's on the way to demonstrating that already, although it's the early stages. Barrett's return to the ring earlier this year was as a heel, and ironically considering this thread was another reason why Cesaro has found it more difficult. His whole presentation simply clicked better than anything Cesaro had. The reason I can believe the company knows what they are doing is because mistakes can be rectified over a longer period of time. We won't ever know, but I fully believe they wanted Batista to main event Mania and tie in his movie run and benefit from the exposure that way, but get Bryan up properly later in the year. Bryan has stated his job was to get Orton ready for the main event, but he did so incredibly well that his promotion came sooner than the company probably thought. It's the system working in action, just on the most obvious, grandest scale. He had a spot slightly lower down, underneath Batista, but they had to put him above. They didn't anticipate him doing as well as he did but the mistake was able to be rectified. I don't think there's going to be many examples of them persisting with people that aren't connecting, or refusing to eventually promote people higher who deserved it. No, I said, "Let's be serious". If Randy cuts his promos with ease, God forbid we see what he's like when he struggles. The company rarely gives him monologues for a reason. His most important and second-most important traits are his finisher and his wild-eyed look, with promos at a distant 753rd, place, being generous. Of course one doesn't have to be The Rock to be good at what one does, but Randy is simply completely unnatural on the mic. Can you think of many Orton quotes that are noteworthy for reasons other than unintentional comedy, e.g. "I kicked him where his appendix used to be"? Whether Orton deserves his spot or not is academic--my entire point is that I know from watching his atrocious 2007-2009 heel run that he didn't get there with mic work. This also applies to Lesnar. The idea of not being able to work with a script is really just an excuse; like you said, a real top tier WWE star has to be able to adapt. I know you did not just say Alberto Del Rio had a knack for engaging crowds during his WWE run. That's impossible; he was one of the most heatless featured players in recent history. To this day people try to find the exact moment crowds stopped caring about him. His acting ability may be pretty good by WWE standards, but it availed him nothing. More on that in a little bit. I disagree about Barrett, too. He's always been a cocky character, dating back to Nexus. Cockiness is a rather standard trait in professional wrestlers. What he has now is just an intriguing, yet still completely one-dimsensional, way to express it. I'm certain that whatever changes in his persona and mannerisms you perceive are really just a result of him interplaying with a crowd now (thanks to doing something the crowd cares about, natch) rather than through design--he's still the same loudmouth tough-guy Brit he's always been. You're not the first person to realize a wrestler's whole swagger feels different when he starts to actually get over. Hey, if you don't think there are examples of them trying over and over with people who aren't working out, you can look towards the aforementioned Del Rio. It's no coincidence that he eventually settled into the role of "filler main event heel", with reports saying he was ready to wrap it up shortly before he owned that social media guy. It's particularly messed up because he came in with a ton of hype. As for what you said about Bryan? Didn't know he said that. But it illustrates my point even more. The rise of Batista wasn't the only blunder in that scenario; if we take this back to Summerslam 2013, Cena put Bryan over specifically so that Bryan could put Orton over. So, in essence, they used their top guy to elevate a 2nd tier who would then elevate another 2nd tier. Most illogical... I had wrote a longer post but managed to lose it, but I have to say, each one of your guys listed here is well ahead of Cesaro in terms of character development and what it takes to succeed in the WWE. Orton has connected. He can adapt. He carries himself like a star. Del Rio did connect, although I know it's the done thing on this board to act like he was never over. He also helps with the latino demographic - again important when trying to target multiple segments. Barrett in Nexus was good, but looked like he was playing a part. Now he looks like a proper star out there, being himself. The difference is marked. Lesnar has a previous WWE main event run as proof he can do what is required, as well as being a complete once in a generation freak, as well as already successfully crossing over to UFC. It's obvious why he's at where he's at, and he's light years ahead of Cesaro. What they did at Summerslam was not illogical at all. If they didn't plan on Cena being in the Mania main event, and didn't want to rehash Cena vs Orton as a Summerslam main event, then it makes complete sense to use Bryan in the mix. Not really sure what relevance that whole point had to be honest. Look, at the end of the day, I'm not simply saying 'Cesaro needs mic skills'. It's not even that his mic-skills are bad, he just has nothing interesting to say. I'm saying he needs to have something behind simply being good in the ring. Everyone else above him is doing that, which is why they are above him.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 8:44:33 GMT -5
You can dislike a dude, or not think he should get a push. That's fine, and a subjective opinion. But to just flat deny that at one point a guy was getting really good reactions, and then they slowly took away everything people were reacting to is kinda asinine. You're not doing your argument any good to try and gloss over something that's so easy to see. Further, the fact that cases like that are so demonstrable makes the total meritocracy argument just clearly a buncha smoke. Take for example a dude like Zack Ryder. I've never been a fan. I think he's fairly mediocre and didn't really do much beyond being one note. That said, it would be stupid of me to argue that they DIDN'T book that dude into oblivion even if he wasn't capable of much more than he was. At one point he was very over, and they squashed that. I'm sure there are other ready examples. The cream always rises to the top thing is pretty easily falsifiable. SOMETIMES it does. Sometimes it's pretty clear that guys aren't put into position to find out if they're gonna be the cream or not. Nope, I've repeatedly said he connected with some crowds, hence them giving him a Wrestlemania moment. The whole reason he got that moment was because of his good work in the months leading up to that show. But they expected more from him after that. Which he didn't deliver. Ryder is an interesting one. He's acknowledged WWE wanted him to develop a more serious side to his character but he never managed to do it, and I don't know if he ever can. He developed a comedy goofball character that found it's limit. They have to be able to see what's coming, as opposed to what's already happened, and if they can see he isn't developing it, they need to give the promotion to others who are. Guys will be put into the position to find out if they are cream, if they earn it. It may be tough for some if there is a roster chock full of talent and sometimes these guys may need to wait a while for an opportunity. But it starts from the very bottom of the roster, right to the top. You go out there and squash a jobber, and see how the crowd takes to you. If you do well, eventually you'll be beating mid-carders. If that goes well, maybe you get a couple of angles. If these are well received, you may get the mid-card title. This continues right up until the main event. Maybe you are trusted (as Bray was) to be fed to the franchise of the company as an upper-mid carder. Perform well there, you will be elevated higher. There is a clear structure of continually proving yourself in the company in order to earn more minutes and more promotion, and it's in action every time there is a show. Cesaro would get his opportunity if he deserves it. There's no reason why they would be holding him down. They've gone with other indie darlings. Daniel Bryan is doing fine. CM Punk did great. Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose are killing right now. They have no problem promoting Bray Wyatt as much as they can even when he'd been on the roster only 6 months. If Cesaro develops enough, he will get his shot. But it's very difficult to do.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 3, 2015 8:50:40 GMT -5
Maybe it was decided that with Evolution around after Mania, plus the Wyatts, plus Rusev and Bo Dallas to debut, that there were just a lot of talent there to get opportunities and whoever did the best, got the shots. They gave Cesaro a massive opportunity. He was doing well as part of the Real Americans, and hence they let him have a Wrestlemania moment. But after that, he didn't kick on. He was nothing except a move. He was bland as a personality. Where as Rusev debuted and it worked extremely well, and Bo Dallas debuted and had a really solid run. Rollins turned heel and has gone from strength to strength. Then now you've got Luke Harper doing well in his own right and there isn't much of a spot for Cesaro unless he improves. As I said, if this was 2007 when the roster really was thin then he'd be higher. But others are doing better than him right now. It's not because he did any one thing wrong, it's just that others hit better. These examples aren't really fair comparisons to Cesaro because he doesn't even have a character like Rusev, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, or Luke Harper have. Cesaro is just a wrestler with a horrible entrance music who happens to be foreign. You can't just expect someone to click with fans on their own with no character development. There has to be something there to build from, no matter how charismatic you are. This right here is entirely backing up my point. They have characters and Cesaro doesn't. Hence they are succeeding in a character driven company where Cesaro is struggling to break out from his 'I'm a wrestler first and foremost' stuff. They are completely fair comparisons because Cesaro has had every opportunity these other guys have had. Infact he's been on the roster 2 years longer than most. He's had a Wrestlemania moment. That he still doesn't have an identifiable character is the reason he isn't being promoted as much as the other heels right now. For some reason there's lots of excuses to protect Cesaro on here, even though in this thread we finally have some acknowledgement that the guys above him have actual characters. We know he's a great talent in the ring, but he needs more. He has rubbish music that he has admitted himself he doesn't like, but what are the music producers supposed to do? He has no character, so they've given him something as broad brush as possible so it still fits. If he had a character, the music would come, and the cocktail begins to emerge. He's tried different things since he's been in singles this year. He's tried that funny walk to the ring where he exaggeratedly puffs out his chest. Now he's covering himself up like a real life fighter in his robe. He's tried different things and none have really hit as yet. Hopefully the team with Kidd allows them to stumble upon something that makes it happen for him.
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