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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 2, 2015 12:28:51 GMT -5
I think a Jason Statham gimmick would get over.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 2, 2015 14:56:33 GMT -5
The guys with the talent rise to the top in the WWE. And it's handled carefully so they know when they are promoting someone, it's because they deserve it. It isn't decided on a whim and care is taken to make sure any promotion is justified. For example everyone assumes the Bray Wyatt loss to Cena was bad booking, because it stopped his momentum. Only it didn't. He had done extraordinarily well to the point where he was trusted to be the heel against the company franchise at Wrestlemania. That was his job, and he proved himself so much through that programme, that he is now being elevated again. And further down the roster, everyone is judged on how they make use of their smaller minutes. Do well with them, you get a bit more time. Do well with that extra time, you get more angles, do well in the angles, you get a title run. There are clear examples of this in action every single week. Excuses are constantly made for performers that didn't have what it takes to rise beyond what was their true level in a company that markets to a mass audience. If they were connecting, they would be promoted. The status quo in the WWE in terms of how they decide who they promote is there because it works. It works because it only people who deserve it succeed, and the definition of "deserving" means you succeed. When people who succeed are the ones who deserve it, then that means the system works. The system works because the system works. Your argument is a circle. If Cesaro had been booked better, if he'd been given a Cesaro-specific "cocktail" like Rusev has, then you'd be using him as an example for why the system works: Look, Cesaro deserved to succeed, and he's succeeding! There's nothing at all underneath what you're saying.
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Jan 2, 2015 16:02:28 GMT -5
They should just give him a gimmick where he says blatantly untrue things which make him look stupid but adamantly sticks by them, insisting that anyone contradicting him is an idiot.
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 16:36:52 GMT -5
The guys with the talent rise to the top in the WWE. And it's handled carefully so they know when they are promoting someone, it's because they deserve it. It isn't decided on a whim and care is taken to make sure any promotion is justified. For example everyone assumes the Bray Wyatt loss to Cena was bad booking, because it stopped his momentum. Only it didn't. He had done extraordinarily well to the point where he was trusted to be the heel against the company franchise at Wrestlemania. That was his job, and he proved himself so much through that programme, that he is now being elevated again. And further down the roster, everyone is judged on how they make use of their smaller minutes. Do well with them, you get a bit more time. Do well with that extra time, you get more angles, do well in the angles, you get a title run. There are clear examples of this in action every single week. Excuses are constantly made for performers that didn't have what it takes to rise beyond what was their true level in a company that markets to a mass audience. If they were connecting, they would be promoted. The status quo in the WWE in terms of how they decide who they promote is there because it works. It works because it only people who deserve it succeed, and the definition of "deserving" means you succeed. When people who succeed are the ones who deserve it, then that means the system works. The system works because the system works. Your argument is a circle. If Cesaro had been booked better, if he'd been given a Cesaro-specific "cocktail" like Rusev has, then you'd be using him as an example for why the system works: Look, Cesaro deserved to succeed, and he's succeeding! There's nothing at all underneath what you're saying. But he didn't get that cocktail did he? And that's partly on him. As Vince also said, he can't come up with everything for everyone, he needs people stepping up. And it's hard to do. You are rewarded in the WWE for, in a real life sense (of being able to connect and come up with cool ways to stand out) of 'doing well'. It is actually pretty simple, and I still don't understand why that's such an unfair thing to argue on. The whole company, right down to NXT, rolls on a mantra of 'taking a spot'. The wrestlers have to earn the right to get more exposure. The company has criteria that they look for in their stars. The company has no personal issue with Cesaro. The company has given Cesaro numerous minutes on TV, exposure, and a Wrestlemania moment. They don't feel he has got to the point where he deserves anything more than what he has right now. And the closest thing anyone in this thread has been able to say is that they should make him a pure wrestler who doesn't talk, who maybe has a manager and should be in the upper-midcard. Frankly that idea sucks, especially when everyone above him right now can talk and can wrestle, and are connecting better. This isn't about using debating phrases like circular arguments. It's about understanding the nature of the company we are talking about here. They clearly have criteria that they need from talent if they are going to promote them. Cesaro clearly hasn't demonstrated it. He's a good wrestler. He's super strong. He looked great on Smackdown this week and hopefully the pairing with Tyson Kidd allows him to flesh out his personality a little more so he can rise up again. But they gave him exposure and the opportunity to push on beyond simply just having ring work and he hasn't delivered as yet. It's not just me saying it in a circular way, because we can clearly see. Everyone above him currently has mic skills as well as the ability to be impressive in the ring. Cesaro needs that extra piece to rise up through the ranks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 17:38:08 GMT -5
It works because it only people who deserve it succeed, and the definition of "deserving" means you succeed. When people who succeed are the ones who deserve it, then that means the system works. The system works because the system works. Your argument is a circle. If Cesaro had been booked better, if he'd been given a Cesaro-specific "cocktail" like Rusev has, then you'd be using him as an example for why the system works: Look, Cesaro deserved to succeed, and he's succeeding! There's nothing at all underneath what you're saying. But he didn't get that cocktail did he? And that's partly on him. As Vince also said, he can't come up with everything for everyone, he needs people stepping up. And it's hard to do. You are rewarded in the WWE for, in a real life sense (of being able to connect and come up with cool ways to stand out) of 'doing well'. It is actually pretty simple, and I still don't understand why that's such an unfair thing to argue on. The whole company, right down to NXT, rolls on a mantra of 'taking a spot'. The wrestlers have to earn the right to get more exposure. The company has criteria that they look for in their stars. The company has no personal issue with Cesaro. The company has given Cesaro numerous minutes on TV, exposure, and a Wrestlemania moment. They don't feel he has got to the point where he deserves anything more than what he has right now. And the closest thing anyone in this thread has been able to say is that they should make him a pure wrestler who doesn't talk, who maybe has a manager and should be in the upper-midcard. Frankly that idea sucks, especially when everyone above him right now can talk and can wrestle, and are connecting better. This isn't about using debating phrases like circular arguments. It's about understanding the nature of the company we are talking about here. They clearly have criteria that they need from talent if they are going to promote them. Cesaro clearly hasn't demonstrated it. He's a good wrestler. He's super strong. He looked great on Smackdown this week and hopefully the pairing with Tyson Kidd allows him to flesh out his personality a little more so he can rise up again. But they gave him exposure and the opportunity to push on beyond simply just having ring work and he hasn't delivered as yet. It's not just me saying it in a circular way, because we can clearly see. Everyone above him currently has mic skills as well as the ability to be impressive in the ring. Cesaro needs that extra piece to rise up through the ranks. Let's be serious, here. Randy Orton is above Cesaro on the totem pole and cuts promos like a knife cuts through a block of steel. Brock Lesnar is above Cesaro and literally needs somebody to talk for him. Del Rio, when he was still around, was very high on the totem pole, and had no notable monologues throughout his WWE run. Dolph Ziggler only recently cut a promo that turned heads, and while they've been weird about pulling the trigger on him, he's been a featured player for ages. And if the rumors are true, Roman Reigns, while injured, actually went and got an acting coach. Pretty concrete evidence that Cesaro's poor public speaking skills aren't the main roadblock in his career, like you think. You say that Cesaro is "a good wrestler with only a catchphrase and a flashy move to his name", but in the same breath say that Bad News Barrett " "may have it all" when the character that got him over is objectively one-dimensional. And yet...they let him run with it, unlike Cesaro. Despite your stated beliefs, the company shouldn't take away what's getting a person over--be it a move, a catchphrase, or even an outfit--in an attempt to see him sink or swim. That's just throwing money away. If Barrett had suddenly been asked to drop the Bad News schtick several months ago, he wouldn't be where he is with the fans right now. You portray WWE's corporate office as wise and savvy about what the audience wants. Where was this acumen when they ignored a white-hot Daniel Bryan's fan following and put him with the Wyatts in a program that benefited nobody, or booked him in a lackluster horror feud with his fiancée and Kane? Of course, I know everyone has their hiccups, and that's the point. It makes no sense to believe that the company couldn't possibly mishandle "lesser" talent like Cesaro when an acknowledged goldmine like Bryan had a bizarre climb to the top.
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Post by benstudd on Jan 2, 2015 19:12:34 GMT -5
Nevermind Brock, look at Big E last year, a big dude that can go in the ring. They gave him a belt, booked him strong, he had matches and feuds and he was over. Yet they gave him zero mic time. And he didn't need to. You don't need to be Punk or Rock to be a star. Also i see you ignored my Midnight Express argument. Big E did ok. I don't think he was pulling up an extreme amount of trees. He didn't do so well that they had to shoot him up towards the top of the card. The whole point of putting him with The New Day is so that he can get comfortable showing his personality on screen so he can become more well rounded. It's quite funny though. We can maybe have loads of guys that don't talk and just stand out there looking strong. How exactly are we going to fill 7 hours of TV time each week with the main roster? Why is the reaction to Ryback's promo largely more positive because we can now understand more about his character? Why is the criticism of Raw usually that we don't get enough time to understand characters, but for Cesaro excuses have to be made because he hasn't developed a marketable personality yet? Big E was getting more and more over and was growing into his role of a wearer of a secondary belt. So he wasn't a big star but he did not need to be. He was involved in storylines helping Cena and so forth. But like I said Vince just doesn't like the strong silent type concept. But it can have legs. Trying to have him get a personality and you have him looking like a fool in New Day. Tito Santana was a great talent, not much of a talker but he was a good IC champ and one my most memorable heroes of my youth. We all enjoyed watching him as kids but we knew he wasn't a top guy or a "top guy to be" but it was OK. If it was 2015, we would hear about how he needs to do a big promo "to take the next step".
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 19:21:20 GMT -5
But he didn't get that cocktail did he? And that's partly on him. As Vince also said, he can't come up with everything for everyone, he needs people stepping up. And it's hard to do. You are rewarded in the WWE for, in a real life sense (of being able to connect and come up with cool ways to stand out) of 'doing well'. It is actually pretty simple, and I still don't understand why that's such an unfair thing to argue on. The whole company, right down to NXT, rolls on a mantra of 'taking a spot'. The wrestlers have to earn the right to get more exposure. The company has criteria that they look for in their stars. The company has no personal issue with Cesaro. The company has given Cesaro numerous minutes on TV, exposure, and a Wrestlemania moment. They don't feel he has got to the point where he deserves anything more than what he has right now. And the closest thing anyone in this thread has been able to say is that they should make him a pure wrestler who doesn't talk, who maybe has a manager and should be in the upper-midcard. Frankly that idea sucks, especially when everyone above him right now can talk and can wrestle, and are connecting better. This isn't about using debating phrases like circular arguments. It's about understanding the nature of the company we are talking about here. They clearly have criteria that they need from talent if they are going to promote them. Cesaro clearly hasn't demonstrated it. He's a good wrestler. He's super strong. He looked great on Smackdown this week and hopefully the pairing with Tyson Kidd allows him to flesh out his personality a little more so he can rise up again. But they gave him exposure and the opportunity to push on beyond simply just having ring work and he hasn't delivered as yet. It's not just me saying it in a circular way, because we can clearly see. Everyone above him currently has mic skills as well as the ability to be impressive in the ring. Cesaro needs that extra piece to rise up through the ranks. Let's be serious, here. Randy Orton is above Cesaro on the totem pole and cuts promos like a knife cuts through a block of steel. Brock Lesnar is above Cesaro and literally needs somebody to talk for him. Del Rio, when he was still around, was very high on the totem pole, and had no notable monologues throughout his WWE run. Dolph Ziggler only recently cut a promo that turned heads, and while they've been weird about pulling the trigger on him, he's been a featured player for ages. And if the rumors are true, Roman Reigns, while injured, actually went and got an acting coach. Pretty concrete evidence that Cesaro's poor public speaking skills aren't the main roadblock in his career, like you think. You say that Cesaro is "a good wrestler with only a catchphrase and a flashy move to his name", but in the same breath say that Bad News Barrett " "may have it all" when the character that got him over is objectively one-dimensional. And yet...they let him run with it, unlike Cesaro. Despite your stated beliefs, the company shouldn't take away what's getting a person over--be it a move, a catchphrase, or even an outfit--in an attempt to see him sink or swim. That's just throwing money away. If Barrett had suddenly been asked to drop the Bad News schtick several months ago, he wouldn't be where he is with the fans right now. You portray WWE's corporate office as wise and savvy about what the audience wants. Where was this acumen when they ignored a white-hot Daniel Bryan's fan following and put him with the Wyatts in a program that benefited nobody, or booked him in a lackluster horror feud with his fiancée and Kane? Of course, I know everyone has their hiccups, and that's the point. It makes no sense to believe that the company couldn't possibly mishandle "lesser" talent like Cesaro when an acknowledged goldmine like Bryan had a bizarre climb to the top. No let's be serious here, Randy Orton has personality. He can completely go out there and cut a promo with ease. It may not be a Rock or even Cena style promo because that's not his character (and probably largely why he's never been made 'The Man' in the company) but he deserves to be where he is, easily. Brock Lesnar also easily deserves to be where he is. Ziggler, Del Rio, Reigns, they can all do it. They can all be funny, or serious, or something in between, and sell themselves and a match. It's not about having Rock like mic skills, it's about being able to connect and demonstrate who you are to sell the match. Brock, because of his UFC exploits, is one of the only people in the world that can sell the match by standing in the middle of the ring, saying nothing and throwing off a wink. Of course, he can actually talk, but he finds it hard to go with a script. The difference is he's already mainstream star and has a previous WWE main event run to demonstrate his worth. Bad News Barrett may look like a catchphrase but it isn't just that. The whole gimmick has allowed him to demonstrate a side of his personality he's never really shown before. He now has that cock-sure swagger that proper stars have, and looks to be enjoying himself out there, rather than looking like he's trying to be someone he's not. If they go with BNB for 2 years, and then try and put him in a spot truly at the top of the company, I can completely see them taking the Bad News name away and referring to him as Wade Barrett again, like taking the rapping away from Cena. That will happen if he gets to the point where his personality is more than the gimmick, and I think he's on the way to demonstrating that already, although it's the early stages. Barrett's return to the ring earlier this year was as a heel, and ironically considering this thread was another reason why Cesaro has found it more difficult. His whole presentation simply clicked better than anything Cesaro had. The reason I can believe the company knows what they are doing is because mistakes can be rectified over a longer period of time. We won't ever know, but I fully believe they wanted Batista to main event Mania and tie in his movie run and benefit from the exposure that way, but get Bryan up properly later in the year. Bryan has stated his job was to get Orton ready for the main event, but he did so incredibly well that his promotion came sooner than the company probably thought. It's the system working in action, just on the most obvious, grandest scale. He had a spot slightly lower down, underneath Batista, but they had to put him above. They didn't anticipate him doing as well as he did but the mistake was able to be rectified. I don't think there's going to be many examples of them persisting with people that aren't connecting, or refusing to eventually promote people higher who deserved it.
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 19:23:35 GMT -5
Big E did ok. I don't think he was pulling up an extreme amount of trees. He didn't do so well that they had to shoot him up towards the top of the card. The whole point of putting him with The New Day is so that he can get comfortable showing his personality on screen so he can become more well rounded. It's quite funny though. We can maybe have loads of guys that don't talk and just stand out there looking strong. How exactly are we going to fill 7 hours of TV time each week with the main roster? Why is the reaction to Ryback's promo largely more positive because we can now understand more about his character? Why is the criticism of Raw usually that we don't get enough time to understand characters, but for Cesaro excuses have to be made because he hasn't developed a marketable personality yet? Big E was getting more and more over and was growing into his role of a wearer of a secondary belt. So he wasn't a big star but he did not need to be. He was involved in storylines helping Cena and so forth. But like I said Vince just doesn't like the strong silent type concept. But it can have legs. Trying to have him get a personality and you have him looking like a fool in New Day. Tito Santana was a great talent, not much of a talker but he was a good IC champ and one my most memorable heroes of my youth. We all enjoyed watching him as kids but we knew he wasn't a top guy or a "top guy to be" but it was OK. If it was 2015, we would hear about how he needs to do a big promo "to take the next step". The New Day has been going for about a month, let's see where it goes. And if it does work, he's going to be much better off as someone with an identifiable personality on screen than as a one-note strong silent type. He'll be making more money and get more famous if he's a more well rounded star, so it's better for him. He's clearly got some sort of personality, as he would have demonstrated backstage as well as on app segments, so they owe it to themselves to try and flesh him out on screen if possible. Damn...the company gets criticised for not creating new stars but when they try to do it, it's always not in the right way, or it's the wrong guys.
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Post by benstudd on Jan 2, 2015 19:28:04 GMT -5
Goldberg had no problem with connecting with a mass audience. He was very easy to book too. But WWE in their ways could not work with it though. Just wasn't in Vince's DNA. They didn't know how to use him, how to use DDP, how to use Steiner. And probably don't know how to use Sting either. Goldberg did great in his first run, but the WCW fans were already turning on him. He was a poor heel and came to the WWE no different to how he was in 1998. It wasn't in Vince's DNA because Vince likes stars that can adapt and be successfully promoted to a wide variety of audience members and have longevity. If WWE was going to change themselves just so they could make WCW stars work better in their environment, they wouldn't be WWE anymore. Certain guys work better in a company that was more focussed on wrestling. Other guys work better in a company more suited towards story. It's funny that they did know how to use Booker T right? It was his job to adapt, and he did it. It's not the company's job to adapt to individuals if they can't cut it, especially when others on the roster can. Fans never turned on Goldberg. All I remember are the crowds being 50-50 when Bill faced Nash for the World title. And yea he was a bad heel, not everybody has to be a good heel and face. About Booker, had the advantage of not being a genuine WCW main eventer.
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Post by benstudd on Jan 2, 2015 19:29:28 GMT -5
Big E was getting more and more over and was growing into his role of a wearer of a secondary belt. So he wasn't a big star but he did not need to be. He was involved in storylines helping Cena and so forth. But like I said Vince just doesn't like the strong silent type concept. But it can have legs. Trying to have him get a personality and you have him looking like a fool in New Day. Tito Santana was a great talent, not much of a talker but he was a good IC champ and one my most memorable heroes of my youth. We all enjoyed watching him as kids but we knew he wasn't a top guy or a "top guy to be" but it was OK. If it was 2015, we would hear about how he needs to do a big promo "to take the next step". The New Day has been going for about a month, let's see where it goes. And if it does work, he's going to be much better off as someone with an identifiable personality on screen than as a one-note strong silent type. He'll be making more money and get more famous if he's a more well rounded star, so it's better for him. He's clearly got some sort of personality, as he would have demonstrated backstage as well as on app segments, so they owe it to themselves to try and flesh him out on screen if possible. Damn...the company gets criticised for not creating new stars but when they try to do it, it's always not in the right way, or it's the wrong guys. Vince just called me, he said the check is in the mail.
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 20:36:09 GMT -5
Goldberg did great in his first run, but the WCW fans were already turning on him. He was a poor heel and came to the WWE no different to how he was in 1998. It wasn't in Vince's DNA because Vince likes stars that can adapt and be successfully promoted to a wide variety of audience members and have longevity. If WWE was going to change themselves just so they could make WCW stars work better in their environment, they wouldn't be WWE anymore. Certain guys work better in a company that was more focussed on wrestling. Other guys work better in a company more suited towards story. It's funny that they did know how to use Booker T right? It was his job to adapt, and he did it. It's not the company's job to adapt to individuals if they can't cut it, especially when others on the roster can. Fans never turned on Goldberg. All I remember are the crowds being 50-50 when Bill faced Nash for the World title. And yea he was a bad heel, not everybody has to be a good heel and face. About Booker, had the advantage of not being a genuine WCW main eventer. Hmm....Goldberg was definitely getting Goldberg sucks chants, and had lost the luster after the streak. Booker was their World Champion and was a talent. Good enough to main event Summerslam with The Rock. Good enough to fight HHH for the World Title at Wrestlemania. Good enough to win King of the Ring. Good enough to still have a role in the company even after leaving for TNA because he's a talent that works well. Ric Flair also lasted a hell of a long time after coming back to WWE, and most definitely was a WCW main eventer. But he was a larger than life type character and personality than Vince loves, and that works well in his company.
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wcc2
AC Slater
Posts: 159
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 20:40:08 GMT -5
The New Day has been going for about a month, let's see where it goes. And if it does work, he's going to be much better off as someone with an identifiable personality on screen than as a one-note strong silent type. He'll be making more money and get more famous if he's a more well rounded star, so it's better for him. He's clearly got some sort of personality, as he would have demonstrated backstage as well as on app segments, so they owe it to themselves to try and flesh him out on screen if possible. Damn...the company gets criticised for not creating new stars but when they try to do it, it's always not in the right way, or it's the wrong guys. Vince just called me, he said the check is in the mail. Shucks, someone comes on here and has the nerve to actually defend quite easily defensible things the WWE does, and that's the response? If that's ok, then it's surely ok for anyone to use the 'IWC' term and not have to face people saying 'the IWC isn't a hivemind!'...because clearly if you defend WWE, you simply must be on Vince's payroll! People that genuinely like what his company does and don't feel the need to complain seem to get hounded out. At the end of the day, anyone claiming Cesaro should be higher on the card haven't offered any real reason why he deserves it ahead of the guys that are currently ahead of him. And in addition to that the best offer for him seems to be 'book him as a strong silent type' as if that will make for good television. A lot of excuses are being made for someone that is hugely talented in a lot of different ways, but hasn't quite clicked as much as his potential would suggest yet. There's no shame in that, because it's incredibly difficult, and hopefully this team with Kidd fleshes out his personality a bit to allow him to make the step up. But he isn't there yet. And he isn't being held down for no reason at all.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 2, 2015 20:46:43 GMT -5
But he didn't get that cocktail did he? And that's partly on him. As Vince also said, he can't come up with everything for everyone, he needs people stepping up. And it's hard to do. You are rewarded in the WWE for, in a real life sense (of being able to connect and come up with cool ways to stand out) of 'doing well'. It is actually pretty simple, and I still don't understand why that's such an unfair thing to argue on. The whole company, right down to NXT, rolls on a mantra of 'taking a spot'. The wrestlers have to earn the right to get more exposure. The company has criteria that they look for in their stars. The company has no personal issue with Cesaro. The company has given Cesaro numerous minutes on TV, exposure, and a Wrestlemania moment. They don't feel he has got to the point where he deserves anything more than what he has right now. And the closest thing anyone in this thread has been able to say is that they should make him a pure wrestler who doesn't talk, who maybe has a manager and should be in the upper-midcard. Frankly that idea sucks, especially when everyone above him right now can talk and can wrestle, and are connecting better. This isn't about using debating phrases like circular arguments. It's about understanding the nature of the company we are talking about here. They clearly have criteria that they need from talent if they are going to promote them. Cesaro clearly hasn't demonstrated it. He's a good wrestler. He's super strong. He looked great on Smackdown this week and hopefully the pairing with Tyson Kidd allows him to flesh out his personality a little more so he can rise up again. But they gave him exposure and the opportunity to push on beyond simply just having ring work and he hasn't delivered as yet. It's not just me saying it in a circular way, because we can clearly see. Everyone above him currently has mic skills as well as the ability to be impressive in the ring. Cesaro needs that extra piece to rise up through the ranks. Cesaro DID have his cocktail, and you're saying it doesn't count. Your entire thing is utterly present-focused: when Rusev's push ends and he falls down the card, you'll start saying how it proves he just doesn't have what it takes to succeed, despite the fact that now you're saying he's grasping the brass ring. That's the thing about defining "capability" as only demonstrable from the outcome: When the outcome changes, you have to turn around and start saying how the potential was never there in the first place. At this point, it's so amazingly clear that you have no point whatsoever except "The WWE's status quo is good!" The meritocracy fantasy isn't just more important than putting on a good show, it's more important than making sense. People have been joking about it for a while, but I'm kind of actually starting to believe you ARE on the WWE's payroll somehow.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 20:51:51 GMT -5
There's no real reason to post this here. Pretty good book though.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 21:20:47 GMT -5
But he didn't get that cocktail did he? And that's partly on him. As Vince also said, he can't come up with everything for everyone, he needs people stepping up. And it's hard to do. You are rewarded in the WWE for, in a real life sense (of being able to connect and come up with cool ways to stand out) of 'doing well'. It is actually pretty simple, and I still don't understand why that's such an unfair thing to argue on. The whole company, right down to NXT, rolls on a mantra of 'taking a spot'. The wrestlers have to earn the right to get more exposure. The company has criteria that they look for in their stars. The company has no personal issue with Cesaro. The company has given Cesaro numerous minutes on TV, exposure, and a Wrestlemania moment. They don't feel he has got to the point where he deserves anything more than what he has right now. And the closest thing anyone in this thread has been able to say is that they should make him a pure wrestler who doesn't talk, who maybe has a manager and should be in the upper-midcard. Frankly that idea sucks, especially when everyone above him right now can talk and can wrestle, and are connecting better. This isn't about using debating phrases like circular arguments. It's about understanding the nature of the company we are talking about here. They clearly have criteria that they need from talent if they are going to promote them. Cesaro clearly hasn't demonstrated it. He's a good wrestler. He's super strong. He looked great on Smackdown this week and hopefully the pairing with Tyson Kidd allows him to flesh out his personality a little more so he can rise up again. But they gave him exposure and the opportunity to push on beyond simply just having ring work and he hasn't delivered as yet. It's not just me saying it in a circular way, because we can clearly see. Everyone above him currently has mic skills as well as the ability to be impressive in the ring. Cesaro needs that extra piece to rise up through the ranks. Cesaro DID have his cocktail, and you're saying it doesn't count. Your entire thing is utterly present-focused: when Rusev's push ends and he falls down the card, you'll start saying how it proves he just doesn't have what it takes to succeed, despite the fact that now you're saying he's grasping the brass ring. That's the thing about defining "capability" as only demonstrable from the outcome: When the outcome changes, you have to turn around and start saying how the potential was never there in the first place. At this point, it's so amazingly clear that you have no point whatsoever except "The WWE's status quo is good!" The meritocracy fantasy isn't just more important than putting on a good show, it's more important than making sense. People have been joking about it for a while, but I'm kind of actually starting to believe you ARE on the WWE's payroll somehow. Why is it so difficult to accept their system might be solid and work? If Rusev falls down, to the extent that Cesaro has, then yes, clearly he has demonstrated that he might be missing something if they want to promote others ahead of him. Right now though he is killing it. Cesaro definitely has potential, I'm not denying it at all. I rate the guy highly and love watching him. I'm not an entire mass audience though and I can recognise that. Cesaro was doing well to an extent, he was good in the Real Americans, recognised for putting on good matches, and then the WWE allowed him to have a Wrestlemania moment (read: not trying at all costs to hold down this obvious breakout talent). They then promoted him in the weeks following Mania, where he won a few matches, but he didn't progress. At the same time, Bo Dallas debuted. Rollins turned. Rusev debuted. Batista had to turn when he was expected to be a face. Bad News Barret picked up really good steam. All guys that are and we're doing better than Cesaro. Then Luke Harper got a singles run. Tyson Kidd had had a number of wins on the main roster. On the face side Ziggler is killing it, Ambrose and Reigns have fully earned their shots. Rvd and Jericho were around for a while. This is not including Big Show, Kane and Mark Henry, who have proven themselves over many years. It's been an incredibly tough year for someone to stand out, because the bar is so high with what we have on the roster now talent wise. As I keep saying, if this was 2007, I'm super convinced Cesaro would.be a lot higher, but right now there is too much talent for him. It's really no more sinister than that. I kind of get it, in that people can look at someone with his talent in the ring and wonder why he's only getting 3 minutes on Raw. But when looked at I'm the context of the rest of the roster, he has so much other talent more deserving right now and that's just the reality of the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 22:42:38 GMT -5
Let's be serious, here. Randy Orton is above Cesaro on the totem pole and cuts promos like a knife cuts through a block of steel. Brock Lesnar is above Cesaro and literally needs somebody to talk for him. Del Rio, when he was still around, was very high on the totem pole, and had no notable monologues throughout his WWE run. Dolph Ziggler only recently cut a promo that turned heads, and while they've been weird about pulling the trigger on him, he's been a featured player for ages. And if the rumors are true, Roman Reigns, while injured, actually went and got an acting coach. Pretty concrete evidence that Cesaro's poor public speaking skills aren't the main roadblock in his career, like you think. You say that Cesaro is "a good wrestler with only a catchphrase and a flashy move to his name", but in the same breath say that Bad News Barrett " "may have it all" when the character that got him over is objectively one-dimensional. And yet...they let him run with it, unlike Cesaro. Despite your stated beliefs, the company shouldn't take away what's getting a person over--be it a move, a catchphrase, or even an outfit--in an attempt to see him sink or swim. That's just throwing money away. If Barrett had suddenly been asked to drop the Bad News schtick several months ago, he wouldn't be where he is with the fans right now. You portray WWE's corporate office as wise and savvy about what the audience wants. Where was this acumen when they ignored a white-hot Daniel Bryan's fan following and put him with the Wyatts in a program that benefited nobody, or booked him in a lackluster horror feud with his fiancée and Kane? Of course, I know everyone has their hiccups, and that's the point. It makes no sense to believe that the company couldn't possibly mishandle "lesser" talent like Cesaro when an acknowledged goldmine like Bryan had a bizarre climb to the top. No let's be serious here, Randy Orton has personality. He can completely go out there and cut a promo with ease. It may not be a Rock or even Cena style promo because that's not his character (and probably largely why he's never been made 'The Man' in the company) but he deserves to be where he is, easily. Brock Lesnar also easily deserves to be where he is. Ziggler, Del Rio, Reigns, they can all do it. They can all be funny, or serious, or something in between, and sell themselves and a match. It's not about having Rock like mic skills, it's about being able to connect and demonstrate who you are to sell the match. Brock, because of his UFC exploits, is one of the only people in the world that can sell the match by standing in the middle of the ring, saying nothing and throwing off a wink. Of course, he can actually talk, but he finds it hard to go with a script. The difference is he's already mainstream star and has a previous WWE main event run to demonstrate his worth. Bad News Barrett may look like a catchphrase but it isn't just that. The whole gimmick has allowed him to demonstrate a side of his personality he's never really shown before. He now has that cock-sure swagger that proper stars have, and looks to be enjoying himself out there, rather than looking like he's trying to be someone he's not. If they go with BNB for 2 years, and then try and put him in a spot truly at the top of the company, I can completely see them taking the Bad News name away and referring to him as Wade Barrett again, like taking the rapping away from Cena. That will happen if he gets to the point where his personality is more than the gimmick, and I think he's on the way to demonstrating that already, although it's the early stages. Barrett's return to the ring earlier this year was as a heel, and ironically considering this thread was another reason why Cesaro has found it more difficult. His whole presentation simply clicked better than anything Cesaro had. The reason I can believe the company knows what they are doing is because mistakes can be rectified over a longer period of time. We won't ever know, but I fully believe they wanted Batista to main event Mania and tie in his movie run and benefit from the exposure that way, but get Bryan up properly later in the year. Bryan has stated his job was to get Orton ready for the main event, but he did so incredibly well that his promotion came sooner than the company probably thought. It's the system working in action, just on the most obvious, grandest scale. He had a spot slightly lower down, underneath Batista, but they had to put him above. They didn't anticipate him doing as well as he did but the mistake was able to be rectified. I don't think there's going to be many examples of them persisting with people that aren't connecting, or refusing to eventually promote people higher who deserved it. No, I said, "Let's be serious". If Randy cuts his promos with ease, God forbid we see what he's like when he struggles. The company rarely gives him monologues for a reason. His most important and second-most important traits are his finisher and his wild-eyed look, with promos at a distant 753rd, place, being generous. Of course one doesn't have to be The Rock to be good at what one does, but Randy is simply completely unnatural on the mic. Can you think of many Orton quotes that are noteworthy for reasons other than unintentional comedy, e.g. "I kicked him where his appendix used to be"? Whether Orton deserves his spot or not is academic--my entire point is that I know from watching his atrocious 2007-2009 heel run that he didn't get there with mic work. This also applies to Lesnar. The idea of not being able to work with a script is really just an excuse; like you said, a real top tier WWE star has to be able to adapt. I know you did not just say Alberto Del Rio had a knack for engaging crowds during his WWE run. That's impossible; he was one of the most heatless featured players in recent history. To this day people try to find the exact moment crowds stopped caring about him. His acting ability may be pretty good by WWE standards, but it availed him nothing. More on that in a little bit. I disagree about Barrett, too. He's always been a cocky character, dating back to Nexus. Cockiness is a rather standard trait in professional wrestlers. What he has now is just an intriguing, yet still completely one-dimsensional, way to express it. I'm certain that whatever changes in his persona and mannerisms you perceive are really just a result of him interplaying with a crowd now (thanks to doing something the crowd cares about, natch) rather than through design--he's still the same loudmouth tough-guy Brit he's always been. You're not the first person to realize a wrestler's whole swagger feels different when he starts to actually get over. Hey, if you don't think there are examples of them trying over and over with people who aren't working out, you can look towards the aforementioned Del Rio. It's no coincidence that he eventually settled into the role of "filler main event heel", with reports saying he was ready to wrap it up shortly before he owned that social media guy. It's particularly messed up because he came in with a ton of hype. As for what you said about Bryan? Didn't know he said that. But it illustrates my point even more. The rise of Batista wasn't the only blunder in that scenario; if we take this back to Summerslam 2013, Cena put Bryan over specifically so that Bryan could put Orton over. So, in essence, they used their top guy to elevate a 2nd tier who would then elevate another 2nd tier. Most illogical...
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 3, 2015 0:27:06 GMT -5
You can dislike a dude, or not think he should get a push. That's fine, and a subjective opinion. But to just flat deny that at one point a guy was getting really good reactions, and then they slowly took away everything people were reacting to is kinda asinine. You're not doing your argument any good to try and gloss over something that's so easy to see.
Further, the fact that cases like that are so demonstrable makes the total meritocracy argument just clearly a buncha smoke.
Take for example a dude like Zack Ryder. I've never been a fan. I think he's fairly mediocre and didn't really do much beyond being one note. That said, it would be stupid of me to argue that they DIDN'T book that dude into oblivion even if he wasn't capable of much more than he was. At one point he was very over, and they squashed that.
I'm sure there are other ready examples.
The cream always rises to the top thing is pretty easily falsifiable. SOMETIMES it does. Sometimes it's pretty clear that guys aren't put into position to find out if they're gonna be the cream or not.
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Post by xCompackx on Jan 3, 2015 0:27:30 GMT -5
There's some overthinking going on at this point. Cesaro got really over as part of a tag team, got a huge pop when said team broke up, won a Battle Royal by bodyslamming a 500 pound man over the top rope to a thunderous ovation, looked to be right on the verge of stardom. And all that was done without cutting any promos. So, why not run with that? Why not cross that promo bridge when you get to it, instead of saying "nah, he can't deliver our awesome promos and get over the way we want him to get over" and just torpedoing the guy? He never had a really bad moment when his weaknesses were exposed and it was obvious he wasn't ready. It was just sort of decided, and the epic mishandling after Mania 30 was either a reflection of that or astounding incompetence. Maybe it was decided that with Evolution around after Mania, plus the Wyatts, plus Rusev and Bo Dallas to debut, that there were just a lot of talent there to get opportunities and whoever did the best, got the shots. They gave Cesaro a massive opportunity. He was doing well as part of the Real Americans, and hence they let him have a Wrestlemania moment. But after that, he didn't kick on. He was nothing except a move. He was bland as a personality. Where as Rusev debuted and it worked extremely well, and Bo Dallas debuted and had a really solid run. Rollins turned heel and has gone from strength to strength. Then now you've got Luke Harper doing well in his own right and there isn't much of a spot for Cesaro unless he improves. As I said, if this was 2007 when the roster really was thin then he'd be higher. But others are doing better than him right now. It's not because he did any one thing wrong, it's just that others hit better. These examples aren't really fair comparisons to Cesaro because he doesn't even have a character like Rusev, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, or Luke Harper have. Cesaro is just a wrestler with a horrible entrance music who happens to be foreign. You can't just expect someone to click with fans on their own with no character development. There has to be something there to build from, no matter how charismatic you are.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 1:57:40 GMT -5
Maybe it was decided that with Evolution around after Mania, plus the Wyatts, plus Rusev and Bo Dallas to debut, that there were just a lot of talent there to get opportunities and whoever did the best, got the shots. They gave Cesaro a massive opportunity. He was doing well as part of the Real Americans, and hence they let him have a Wrestlemania moment. But after that, he didn't kick on. He was nothing except a move. He was bland as a personality. Where as Rusev debuted and it worked extremely well, and Bo Dallas debuted and had a really solid run. Rollins turned heel and has gone from strength to strength. Then now you've got Luke Harper doing well in his own right and there isn't much of a spot for Cesaro unless he improves. As I said, if this was 2007 when the roster really was thin then he'd be higher. But others are doing better than him right now. It's not because he did any one thing wrong, it's just that others hit better. These examples aren't really fair comparisons to Cesaro because he doesn't even have a character like Rusev, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, or Luke Harper have. Cesaro is just a wrestler with a horrible entrance music who happens to be foreign. You can't just expect someone to click with fans on their own with no character development. There has to be something there to build from, no matter how charismatic you are. Pretty much. People seem to gloss over this a lot and I've seen some outright denial of it, but one good example, between the end of the Miz feud and his heel turn Bryan couldn't get a crowd reaction outside of a smark city if his life depended on it. Sometimes a guy does just need a chance or a hook.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 3, 2015 2:02:05 GMT -5
Him and BNB need to form a team...if you saw the JBL Show online, they could do a Statler and Waldorf type deal.
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