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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 19:53:02 GMT -5
Even though I don't care for Cesaro, I think he could easily have a better hand than he does. There's really no reason to have made him a completely ineffectual heel who can't buy a win to save his life, has a theme that seems to be intentionally there to kill crowds, and doesn't use the moves that people pop for. If the guy has only ever been able to get over by being positioned as an upper midcard face throwing people around and getting the crowd to chant for him swinging somebody then do it, have him screw around with the Intercontinental title or something and face off with people like Rusev in lengthy throwaway matches. There's no reason for him to be one step on the ladder above Justin Gabriel.
Speaking of, the hell is the deal with Gabriel anyway? He's the same sort of thing, good in the ring, I can't even say if he's bad on the mic or not given I can't remember if he's ever talked once outside of when he was on NXT, and yet the man cannot buy airtime. It just comes off like with certain people they just decide they don't enjoy their work and don't want to do anything with them ever again for no reason even though there are still uses for them.
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Post by benstudd on Jan 1, 2015 20:25:33 GMT -5
Again, there's plenty of ways to be involved in a storyline without having to talk. But that means he'll never be above a certain level within the company then, because everyone above him right now can talk as well as connect well with ring work and character development. What is the justification that he should be any higher than he is? And who should be demoted to make way for him? Hey they are booking Brock as the Top monster in the biz. I think he talked once during the whole year. Best feuds in history of wrestling involved the Midnight Express. When has Bobby Eaton ever talked?
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Post by benstudd on Jan 1, 2015 20:32:25 GMT -5
At some point, he's going to need to talk to sell an angle, a match, or himself. You can hide it for so long before people start asking why they aren't talking. Ryback on Monday got promo time to introduce himself as more than a catchphrase spewing meathead. It wasn't perfect it it was effective enough to earn more fan support. Cesaro got a semi shoot promo to do and he stumbled a bit. Which hurts you if you got detractors like your boss. I watched Shelton viciously butchered a promo with Eric Bischoff and it spelled doom for his main event hopes. Genesis of McGullicutty ruined Curtis Axel's FCW golden boy status. Cesaro is currently in the Jerry Lynn: Starmaker role. He broke off from the Real Americans too soon without fleshing himself enough to work in a babyface role. With Heyman, he was just a body so Heyman had a reason to be on tv. Sure Heyman hyped him up, but Cesaro barely said a word. The mystique of Goldberg took a hit when he finally had to say more than "Who's next?". Goldberg wasn't terrible but I can't remember a memorable Goldberg promo. Goldberg is a really interesting name to bring up, in terms of how someone connects with the WWE audience. He was a one-note performer that didn't really flesh himself out beyond the initial thing that made him popular. People accused WWE of mishandling him by having him communicate with Goldust in a backstage segment, saying it just exposed Goldberg's weaknesses. And it's true, it did. But it's just his trial to see if they can get more out of him. That he fails at stuff like that means he would never be looked upon as someone the WWE truly needed to bank on beyond his year run, once they had gotten the possible dream matches out of the way. Compare Goldberg to someone like Booker T. Why has Booker T faired so much better in the WWE? Why were they so interested in picking up Booker T when they bought out WCW? He's a multi-faceted performer. He has a personality that can connect. He can be serious but he can also go the complete other way with something like King Bookeh and so a load of stuff in between, hence being a commodity that works well in an environment like WWE. If they gave Daniel Bryan the anger management segments and Bryan totally floundered in them, couldn't adapt and wasn't funny, then I guarantee this forum would have a load of people saying that it's WWE's fault, they mis-managed him and he should go back to the indies where he can concentrate on being a wrestler. They'd say that WWE lost the opportunity for a massive star. Only the reality of it is, Bryan works in the WWE because he can be given something like the whole anger management angle and make it work, because he's a multi-faceted performer, and that allowed him to flesh out his personality as well as demonstrate skills that made him worthy of being in the Summerslam main event, and ultimately Wrestlemania. He made it work, hence the company gives him more opportunity, and he delivers. Cesaro just hasn't demonstrated enough top class WWE type qualities yet to deserve being any higher than he is. But it says a lot about a weakness in the WWE of not knowing how to work with someone like Goldberg as opposed to Booker T.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 20:36:31 GMT -5
I'd just dress him in a suit, tie, and sunglass and make him like the Transporter. He'd be a hired gun for the Authority, wrecking people with his cool offense and only doing promos in his non-English languages.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 1, 2015 20:42:01 GMT -5
But that means he'll never be above a certain level within the company then, because everyone above him right now can talk as well as connect well with ring work and character development. What is the justification that he should be any higher than he is? And who should be demoted to make way for him? No one has to be demoted for him. Right now WWE is lacking in quality heels. Right now it's Rollins, Kane, Big Show and then everyone else. Cesaro should be moved up by default. There is a roster with a hierarchy. Rollins is ahead of Big Show, who is ahead of Kane. It's a literal thing. It guides who gets exposure on TV shows, and who they can credibly win against on the face side. For Cesaro to be moved up, someone else needs to move down. His next step is to overtake Luke Harper, who's doing better than Cesaro is at the moment.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 1, 2015 20:43:32 GMT -5
Even though I don't care for Cesaro, I think he could easily have a better hand than he does. There's really no reason to have made him a completely ineffectual heel who can't buy a win to save his life, has a theme that seems to be intentionally there to kill crowds, and doesn't use the moves that people pop for. If the guy has only ever been able to get over by being positioned as an upper midcard face throwing people around and getting the crowd to chant for him swinging somebody then do it, have him screw around with the Intercontinental title or something and face off with people like Rusev in lengthy throwaway matches. There's no reason for him to be one step on the ladder above Justin Gabriel. Speaking of, the hell is the deal with Gabriel anyway? He's the same sort of thing, good in the ring, I can't even say if he's bad on the mic or not given I can't remember if he's ever talked once outside of when he was on NXT, and yet the man cannot buy airtime. It just comes off like with certain people they just decide they don't enjoy their work and don't want to do anything with them ever again for no reason even though there are still uses for them. As with Cesaro, there's a lot of talent on the roster and Gabriel would need to take someone else's spot. Who drops down so Gabriel can step up right now?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 20:44:58 GMT -5
Even though I don't care for Cesaro, I think he could easily have a better hand than he does. There's really no reason to have made him a completely ineffectual heel who can't buy a win to save his life, has a theme that seems to be intentionally there to kill crowds, and doesn't use the moves that people pop for. If the guy has only ever been able to get over by being positioned as an upper midcard face throwing people around and getting the crowd to chant for him swinging somebody then do it, have him screw around with the Intercontinental title or something and face off with people like Rusev in lengthy throwaway matches. There's no reason for him to be one step on the ladder above Justin Gabriel. Speaking of, the hell is the deal with Gabriel anyway? He's the same sort of thing, good in the ring, I can't even say if he's bad on the mic or not given I can't remember if he's ever talked once outside of when he was on NXT, and yet the man cannot buy airtime. It just comes off like with certain people they just decide they don't enjoy their work and don't want to do anything with them ever again for no reason even though there are still uses for them. As with Cesaro, there's a lot of talent on the roster and Gabriel would need to take someone else's spot. Who drops down so Gabriel can step up right now? Why would somebody's spot need to be taken? The roster's paper-thin right now and we keep seeing the same matches over and over again. Would it really be that hard to just put Gabriel into circulation, just have him occasionally be facing people like Kidd or Kofi or something?
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 1, 2015 20:46:56 GMT -5
But that means he'll never be above a certain level within the company then, because everyone above him right now can talk as well as connect well with ring work and character development. What is the justification that he should be any higher than he is? And who should be demoted to make way for him? Hey they are booking Brock as the Top monster in the biz. I think he talked once during the whole year. Best feuds in history of wrestling involved the Midnight Express. When has Bobby Eaton ever talked? Unfortunately for Cesaro in this case, Brock is a freak that has already crossed over into UFC and has mainstream attention. But even with Brock, we get those vignettes where he gets to sit there and talk off script 'I don't know what happened, I got hit in the head with a f***ing chain' which makes him believable and in that sense, he's got more of a character than Cesaro. Cesaro could well be the next 'The Game' but he has to develop and flesh himself out enough to earn the right to be booked like that. HHH had already proven himself multi-faceted before being given that kind of ball.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 1, 2015 20:48:33 GMT -5
Cesaro would make a great CHAOS member.
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 1, 2015 20:51:40 GMT -5
As with Cesaro, there's a lot of talent on the roster and Gabriel would need to take someone else's spot. Who drops down so Gabriel can step up right now? Why would somebody's spot need to be taken? The roster's paper-thin right now and we keep seeing the same matches over and over again. Would it really be that hard to just put Gabriel into circulation, just have him occasionally be facing people like Kidd or Kofi or something? Yes, because any spot someone holds they have earned it to the extent that they are holding it, whether they are the top guy or the 8th guy or the 12th guy. To move Gabriel up, you take away TV time from someone else and you have to feed him heels that will be higher up too. That's why the literal hierarchy exists, because you can't just randomly have say Luke Harper lose to Gabriel clean one week because they've put him in circulation, then not see him for a couple weeks because they've taken him out, only then Harper loses to Ziggler (who looks less credible to be fed to a better face because of his loss to Gabriel) while Gabriel is then losing to Kofi because he was only circulated in briefly. There has to be a hierarchy because for wins and losses to mean anything, we have to know who we expect to beat who. And that's why with Cesaro, for him to be elevated, someone would have to drop. It's not a case of having a mixed up pool of faces and heels. At any one time, the machine has the roster ranked in terms of their perception related to the rest of the roster. And that dictates TV time, as well as who they should be facing and believably losing to or beating.
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 1, 2015 20:53:45 GMT -5
Goldberg is a really interesting name to bring up, in terms of how someone connects with the WWE audience. He was a one-note performer that didn't really flesh himself out beyond the initial thing that made him popular. People accused WWE of mishandling him by having him communicate with Goldust in a backstage segment, saying it just exposed Goldberg's weaknesses. And it's true, it did. But it's just his trial to see if they can get more out of him. That he fails at stuff like that means he would never be looked upon as someone the WWE truly needed to bank on beyond his year run, once they had gotten the possible dream matches out of the way. Compare Goldberg to someone like Booker T. Why has Booker T faired so much better in the WWE? Why were they so interested in picking up Booker T when they bought out WCW? He's a multi-faceted performer. He has a personality that can connect. He can be serious but he can also go the complete other way with something like King Bookeh and so a load of stuff in between, hence being a commodity that works well in an environment like WWE. If they gave Daniel Bryan the anger management segments and Bryan totally floundered in them, couldn't adapt and wasn't funny, then I guarantee this forum would have a load of people saying that it's WWE's fault, they mis-managed him and he should go back to the indies where he can concentrate on being a wrestler. They'd say that WWE lost the opportunity for a massive star. Only the reality of it is, Bryan works in the WWE because he can be given something like the whole anger management angle and make it work, because he's a multi-faceted performer, and that allowed him to flesh out his personality as well as demonstrate skills that made him worthy of being in the Summerslam main event, and ultimately Wrestlemania. He made it work, hence the company gives him more opportunity, and he delivers. Cesaro just hasn't demonstrated enough top class WWE type qualities yet to deserve being any higher than he is. But it says a lot about a weakness in the WWE of not knowing how to work with someone like Goldberg as opposed to Booker T. The weakness is that WWE need multi-faceted performers. Let's say they didn't know what worked for their audience. Let's say they gave Goldberg a 3 year contract. Let's say Goldberg continued to not develop as he hadn't done since 1998 anyway. By years 2 and 3 of his WWE run he wouldn't be working as well with the WWE audience being a pure one note guy. Someone like Booker T or someone like a Daniel Bryan, guys that can wrestle but can turn their hand to different types of entertainment too, are the ones that thrive when being promoted towards a mass audience.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 21:50:18 GMT -5
There's some overthinking going on at this point. Cesaro got really over as part of a tag team, got a huge pop when said team broke up, won a Battle Royal by bodyslamming a 500 pound man over the top rope to a thunderous ovation, looked to be right on the verge of stardom. And all that was done without cutting any promos. So, why not run with that? Why not cross that promo bridge when you get to it, instead of saying "nah, he can't deliver our awesome promos and get over the way we want him to get over" and just torpedoing the guy? He never had a really bad moment when his weaknesses were exposed and it was obvious he wasn't ready. It was just sort of decided, and the epic mishandling after Mania 30 was either a reflection of that or astounding incompetence.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jan 1, 2015 22:37:35 GMT -5
Cesaro was over for a good while before Mania and was over for a good while after.
He didn't fail to connect. He was booked into oblivion.
If you are so unwilling to put any blame on the creative team for jobbing him out until he had no credibility, taking away things that people liked, turning him heel when people wanted to cheer him, and having his manager treat him like an afterthought, then there's no point in arguing with you. You are determined to blame the victim.
Cesaro should be in the upper midcard. Early in the year the fans were willing to take him seriously as a threat to Cena of all people. The only reason he isn't where he was and still could be is because the so-called creative team failed him.
That just a fact.
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Post by benstudd on Jan 1, 2015 23:37:39 GMT -5
Hey they are booking Brock as the Top monster in the biz. I think he talked once during the whole year. Best feuds in history of wrestling involved the Midnight Express. When has Bobby Eaton ever talked? Unfortunately for Cesaro in this case, Brock is a freak that has already crossed over into UFC and has mainstream attention. But even with Brock, we get those vignettes where he gets to sit there and talk off script 'I don't know what happened, I got hit in the head with a f***ing chain' which makes him believable and in that sense, he's got more of a character than Cesaro. Cesaro could well be the next 'The Game' but he has to develop and flesh himself out enough to earn the right to be booked like that. HHH had already proven himself multi-faceted before being given that kind of ball. Nevermind Brock, look at Big E last year, a big dude that can go in the ring. They gave him a belt, booked him strong, he had matches and feuds and he was over. Yet they gave him zero mic time. And he didn't need to. You don't need to be Punk or Rock to be a star. Also i see you ignored my Midnight Express argument.
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Post by benstudd on Jan 1, 2015 23:43:30 GMT -5
But it says a lot about a weakness in the WWE of not knowing how to work with someone like Goldberg as opposed to Booker T. The weakness is that WWE need multi-faceted performers. Let's say they didn't know what worked for their audience. Let's say they gave Goldberg a 3 year contract. Let's say Goldberg continued to not develop as he hadn't done since 1998 anyway. By years 2 and 3 of his WWE run he wouldn't be working as well with the WWE audience being a pure one note guy. Someone like Booker T or someone like a Daniel Bryan, guys that can wrestle but can turn their hand to different types of entertainment too, are the ones that thrive when being promoted towards a mass audience. Goldberg had no problem with connecting with a mass audience. He was very easy to book too. But WWE in their ways could not work with it though. Just wasn't in Vince's DNA. They didn't know how to use him, how to use DDP, how to use Steiner. And probably don't know how to use Sting either.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 10:43:43 GMT -5
Cesaro was over for a good while before Mania and was over for a good while after. He didn't fail to connect. He was booked into oblivion. If you are so unwilling to put any blame on the creative team for jobbing him out until he had no credibility, taking away things that people liked, turning him heel when people wanted to cheer him, and having his manager treat him like an afterthought, then there's no point in arguing with you. You are determined to blame the victim. Cesaro should be in the upper midcard. Early in the year the fans were willing to take him seriously as a threat to Cena of all people. The only reason he isn't where he was and still could be is because the so-called creative team failed him. That just a fact. You don't need to win matches to be over, or connect with the crowd. If he was a bigger star waiting to break out, his treatment wouldn't affect him all that much as the crowd simply wouldn't let him be as low as he is. Someone please name a guy on the roster that shouldn't be above Cesaro right now. And also please tell me what it is, beyond being really strong and good in the ring, justifies a promotion behind the guys that he is currently below. Personally I really like him, but I'm objective enough to understand the roster is so talented right now, in a company that needs talent in a lot of different ways, that he just isn't quite there yet.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 10:48:52 GMT -5
There's some overthinking going on at this point. Cesaro got really over as part of a tag team, got a huge pop when said team broke up, won a Battle Royal by bodyslamming a 500 pound man over the top rope to a thunderous ovation, looked to be right on the verge of stardom. And all that was done without cutting any promos. So, why not run with that? Why not cross that promo bridge when you get to it, instead of saying "nah, he can't deliver our awesome promos and get over the way we want him to get over" and just torpedoing the guy? He never had a really bad moment when his weaknesses were exposed and it was obvious he wasn't ready. It was just sort of decided, and the epic mishandling after Mania 30 was either a reflection of that or astounding incompetence. Maybe it was decided that with Evolution around after Mania, plus the Wyatts, plus Rusev and Bo Dallas to debut, that there were just a lot of talent there to get opportunities and whoever did the best, got the shots. They gave Cesaro a massive opportunity. He was doing well as part of the Real Americans, and hence they let him have a Wrestlemania moment. But after that, he didn't kick on. He was nothing except a move. He was bland as a personality. Where as Rusev debuted and it worked extremely well, and Bo Dallas debuted and had a really solid run. Rollins turned heel and has gone from strength to strength. Then now you've got Luke Harper doing well in his own right and there isn't much of a spot for Cesaro unless he improves. As I said, if this was 2007 when the roster really was thin then he'd be higher. But others are doing better than him right now. It's not because he did any one thing wrong, it's just that others hit better.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 10:52:28 GMT -5
Unfortunately for Cesaro in this case, Brock is a freak that has already crossed over into UFC and has mainstream attention. But even with Brock, we get those vignettes where he gets to sit there and talk off script 'I don't know what happened, I got hit in the head with a f***ing chain' which makes him believable and in that sense, he's got more of a character than Cesaro. Cesaro could well be the next 'The Game' but he has to develop and flesh himself out enough to earn the right to be booked like that. HHH had already proven himself multi-faceted before being given that kind of ball. Nevermind Brock, look at Big E last year, a big dude that can go in the ring. They gave him a belt, booked him strong, he had matches and feuds and he was over. Yet they gave him zero mic time. And he didn't need to. You don't need to be Punk or Rock to be a star. Also i see you ignored my Midnight Express argument. Big E did ok. I don't think he was pulling up an extreme amount of trees. He didn't do so well that they had to shoot him up towards the top of the card. The whole point of putting him with The New Day is so that he can get comfortable showing his personality on screen so he can become more well rounded. It's quite funny though. We can maybe have loads of guys that don't talk and just stand out there looking strong. How exactly are we going to fill 7 hours of TV time each week with the main roster? Why is the reaction to Ryback's promo largely more positive because we can now understand more about his character? Why is the criticism of Raw usually that we don't get enough time to understand characters, but for Cesaro excuses have to be made because he hasn't developed a marketable personality yet?
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 2, 2015 10:56:02 GMT -5
The weakness is that WWE need multi-faceted performers. Let's say they didn't know what worked for their audience. Let's say they gave Goldberg a 3 year contract. Let's say Goldberg continued to not develop as he hadn't done since 1998 anyway. By years 2 and 3 of his WWE run he wouldn't be working as well with the WWE audience being a pure one note guy. Someone like Booker T or someone like a Daniel Bryan, guys that can wrestle but can turn their hand to different types of entertainment too, are the ones that thrive when being promoted towards a mass audience. Goldberg had no problem with connecting with a mass audience. He was very easy to book too. But WWE in their ways could not work with it though. Just wasn't in Vince's DNA. They didn't know how to use him, how to use DDP, how to use Steiner. And probably don't know how to use Sting either. Goldberg did great in his first run, but the WCW fans were already turning on him. He was a poor heel and came to the WWE no different to how he was in 1998. It wasn't in Vince's DNA because Vince likes stars that can adapt and be successfully promoted to a wide variety of audience members and have longevity. If WWE was going to change themselves just so they could make WCW stars work better in their environment, they wouldn't be WWE anymore. Certain guys work better in a company that was more focussed on wrestling. Other guys work better in a company more suited towards story. It's funny that they did know how to use Booker T right? It was his job to adapt, and he did it. It's not the company's job to adapt to individuals if they can't cut it, especially when others on the roster can.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 12:20:03 GMT -5
I think maybe Vince is still sour on him for cancelling his Indy dates when he got signed the first time.
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