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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 4, 2015 17:29:49 GMT -5
That whole "If you don't like it, you can just leave!" thing is part of the manipulation. You yourself are blurring together "not being tough or strong enough" with "not being willing to get treated terribly." The WWE knows perfectly well that if they convince their talent that those are the same thing, they can treat them however they want pretty much the whole rest of their careers. Then they choose to be manipulated if they stick around even after the bullshit. For every wrestler who say enough is enough and quit like Justin Gabriel there is are 3 Zack Ryders more than willing to suck it up. If you're not willing to take a stand for yourself, don't wait for others to do it on your behalf. WWE is ran by Alphas who are looking for other Alphas and the Betas don't stand a chance. What's your point? I have a hard time of thinking of a single reason why the system you're describing isn't terrible, and there are many reasons why it is.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Mar 4, 2015 17:36:26 GMT -5
Then they choose to be manipulated if they stick around even after the bullshit. For every wrestler who say enough is enough and quit like Justin Gabriel there is are 3 Zack Ryders more than willing to suck it up. If you're not willing to take a stand for yourself, don't wait for others to do it on your behalf. WWE is ran by Alphas who are looking for other Alphas and the Betas don't stand a chance. What's your point? I have a hard time of thinking of a single reason why the system you're describing isn't terrible, and there are many reasons why it is. My point is that is those who stick around know what they are getting into. Wrestlers know WWE is very cutthroat yet still sign because of the dreams of making it big, becoming famous, and making money.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 4, 2015 17:44:18 GMT -5
What's your point? I have a hard time of thinking of a single reason why the system you're describing isn't terrible, and there are many reasons why it is. My point is that is those who stick around know what they are getting into. Wrestlers know WWE is very cutthroat yet still sign because of the dreams of making it big, becoming famous, and making money. Are you saying that this terrible system exists, or that it's good? I know it exists. It's still terrible. The fact that naive people willingly put up with it doesn't mean anything, particularly when people like Demott specifically have the job they have in order to mold people into being willing to put up with it. And "cutthroat" isn't the right word, either. There's a difference between a very competitive system and one that is set up to exploit its talent. Dealing with Demott doesn't train people to navigate some kind of Randian competitive paradise; it trains people to not stand up for themselves when authority figures want to mistreat them.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Mar 4, 2015 17:53:36 GMT -5
My point is that is those who stick around know what they are getting into. Wrestlers know WWE is very cutthroat yet still sign because of the dreams of making it big, becoming famous, and making money. Are you saying that this terrible system exists, or that it's good? I know it exists. It's still terrible. The fact that naive people willingly put up with it doesn't mean anything, particularly when people like Demott specifically have the job they have in order to mold people into being willing to put up with it. And "cutthroat" isn't the right word, either. There's a difference between a very competitive system and one that is set up to exploit its talent. Dealing with Demott doesn't train people to navigate some kind of Randian competitive paradise; it trains people to not stand up for themselves when authority figures want to mistreat them. The system exist because WWE wants it to exist. The system is both competitive and exploitative. Never said the system is good but it is the one WWE feels that works for them currently. The moment it stops working at their standards, it is replaced with a new one. The problem is that people will rollover and gladly let WWE f*** them nowadays. Few want to rock the boat in fears of losing their job and potentially getting blacklisted in wrestling. Wrestling needs more Richard Shermans who are willing to tell their bosses off when it comes to grievances instead of bending over and taking one for the team.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 18:07:44 GMT -5
Surely they need to tell him to calm down, last thing they want is a lawsuit from the family of a dead or crippled trainee.
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Post by weaselboy on Mar 4, 2015 19:05:47 GMT -5
I know people like to fawn over The New Japan Dojo way of doing things but I'd also like to point out that trainee Hiromitsu Gompei was killed by Kensuke Sasaki, who aggressively suplexed him onto his head as a "punishment" for not putting enough effort in. Gompei had picked up a head injury earlier in the day but did not disclose it to anyone because of the fear of the reprisal for saying he was hurt. If anyone is interested as to what warranted being beaten to death at such a young age, it was because he wasn't performing his drills properly after suffering a concussion. Maybe it's time to stop treating wrestlers like disposable circus animals?
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Mar 4, 2015 19:07:52 GMT -5
I pray NXT never gets a pet Monkey.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Mar 4, 2015 19:17:29 GMT -5
Jericho deleted his tweet supporting DeMott, another letter of complaint has leaked, and Briley Pierce has come out and said 'in 2 years I have still not been questioned once about my part in that poor guy's letter. That is the opposite of a "full investigation.'
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 4, 2015 22:47:23 GMT -5
The other awful thing about it is the conflicting messages the young wrestlers get.
On the one hand, they have people browbeating them saying "stand up for yourself!", because we've all heard the stories of how Vince likes wrestlers who are willing to tell him to stick it.
Yet, on the other hand, that'll only work...until it doesn't. You're just as likely to be looked on as a selfish pariah, shunned, buried, and then quietly released as you are to catch somebody like Vince's attention for "showing grapefruits".
Meanwhile, the young talent is stuck trying to figure out which way is best, because if they make the wrong choice there aren't a ton of places for them to go that can pay anything close to what WWE pays.
It's ridiculous, and again, it's part of what's sad about today's landscape; you have to please the upper echelon of WWE, but the upper echelon of WWE isn't consistent in what it wants from people.
And yeah, you're not going to catch me praising a whole lot about dojo style training. I definitely enjoy watching New Japan, but the stories that come out of the dojos over there are the stuff of nightmares.
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TWERKIN' MAGGLE
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Mar 4, 2015 22:53:29 GMT -5
They ought to keep hammering at this till Bill's let go. There's nothing Hugh Morrus about a man losing his job, unless he's a piece of garbage who's abusing people he's supposed to be teaching how to be safe in the ring.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 4, 2015 22:56:48 GMT -5
The more I read, the more his big thing seems to be to teach people to shut up about injuries. Given everything we heard from Punk, it's not a surprise that's a message that starts early.
As far as Demott himself is concerned, I wonder if he's just overcompensating because of his adorable, adorable face. Lookit his cheeks! He's like a wombat.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Mar 4, 2015 23:52:37 GMT -5
WWE is lipstick on a pig. As much as they pretend to be this cutting edge hip company; they're still carny pro wrestling.
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Madagascar Fred
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Mar 5, 2015 0:59:23 GMT -5
why not fire DeMott? pretty sure he's rather worthless and you can find tons of other guys who would do a way better job as head trainer (Brookside? Rhyno? Joe E Legend? Christian? Smiley? Billy Gunn?)
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Post by bigjohnsons on Mar 5, 2015 1:00:20 GMT -5
I say keep the guy
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Mar 5, 2015 1:01:46 GMT -5
For what purpose? The bad image and potential for lawsuits surely would have him fired from any legitimate corporation.
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Post by Ryushinku on Mar 5, 2015 3:34:09 GMT -5
I don't get what major plus side they have in having Demott as trainer, that's worth all this snowballing criticism.
The debate about the actual style of training in WWE or elsewhere in general is one thing. This seems like a situation where you're not really going to lose anything you can't replace pretty simply apart from a lot of bad press and bad habits.
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Post by celtics543 on Mar 5, 2015 6:37:59 GMT -5
When Hardcore Holly disagrees with your training methods because they're too harsh, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate. Holly just answered a bunch of questions on the subject on twitter and he was critical of Demott if the stories are true. Holly said there's a difference between working tight and intentionally trying to hurt someone.
I'm pretty sure that was the code back in the day right? Don't knock out teeth or break bones but work as snugly as possible to try and sell the "realness" of what was happening. Demott must have missed that lesson. You have to fire the guy though, there's going to be a lawsuit from someone who gets seriously hurt from his "training" and then the WWE will be at risk of losing A LOT of money.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Mar 5, 2015 8:16:02 GMT -5
WWE is probably thankful they don't get any mainstream press, outside of the occasional and fleeting mention. DeMott is especially thankful. Short of a lawsuit, that would be the only thing to get him fired.
By all accounts, Triple H knows and he more or less likes Bill's approach. I have no problem believing that.
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Post by CeilingFan on Mar 5, 2015 9:07:07 GMT -5
Replace Bill Demott with Samoa Joe.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 5, 2015 9:15:47 GMT -5
The more I read, the more his big thing seems to be to teach people to shut up about injuries. Given everything we heard from Punk, it's not a surprise that's a message that starts early. Wouldn't shock me at all. I think it's part and parcel of VInce's obsession owning everything about his talent down to their names, and even his obsession with avoiding the word "wrestling". That hit me the other day: if they promote the world "wrestling", it implies wrestling, the sport, as a whole, and doing that means people might, in some way, make a connection that "hey, there are other wrestling promotions out there!". By simply being "entertainment", WWE suddenly seems like the only thing to watch if you want anything like that. So, WWE wrestlers are encouraged to give up their names, are encouraged to work through injury, and potentially leave themselves with less worth should they ever strike out onto the indy scene, and Bill DeMott hitting you for daring to get hurt in an art form that revolves around contact is just one piece of the puzzle in all of that.
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