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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 4, 2015 6:07:09 GMT -5
It's sad that after all these years some "wrestlers" and "fans" are still marks for hardcore/garbage "wrestling".
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Mar 4, 2015 7:11:27 GMT -5
Gender should be a moot point in this discussion. Take Kimber Lee out and put like, say, Rockstar Spud or Spike Dudley in her place. What that dude did is still reckless as all hell and uncalled for.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Mar 4, 2015 7:31:28 GMT -5
Why, when there's all this documented research into head injuries and the long-term effects of concussions, do people still friggin' insist on chairshots to the head? It's ridiculous. I was linked to LuFisto weighing in on it earlier. Should be spread around and be required reading for anyone who watched that video. That was a good read. LuFisto made great points about indy wrestlers killing themselves doing over the top moves in hopes of catching the attention of big promoters and most being left with nothing as a result. Beyond been going full bore into ECW territory the last 2 years or so. It used to be wrestlers leaving it all in the ring and turned into a hardcore game of chicken. And this is actually not the worst beating Kimber took. Hell, not even the worst this year. She took a hate crime level of a beating at the WSU show last month. Still rough to watch and this gives media watchdogs some serious talking points.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 4, 2015 7:52:37 GMT -5
I have to wonder what it'd take for people. Chris Benoit died with a skull full of tapioca and scar tissue, Verne Gagne is so far gone he doesn't even remember shoving a man to the ground in a nursing home in 2009, which the man later died from complications from, and Muhammad Ali went from an eloquent man, light on his feet and quicker witted, to a jittering mess who would have great difficulty talking slowly.
Blunt trauma might not be as visible as a laceration, but it kills people, if not in body, in mind. It doesn't happen all at once, but it adds up and slowly strips a person of what makes them who they are.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 4, 2015 7:58:27 GMT -5
Who was that guy who used to take all those crazy chairshots to the head? He also had this one move, where he'd dive off the top rope (and sometimes off the top of a steel cage) to land a headbutt? I seem to remember something really bad happened to him and his family but we weren't allowed to talk about it. Was I only dreaming it?
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Mar 4, 2015 8:05:15 GMT -5
It has nothing to do with gender, though. Nothing in the slightest. No one is disputing that Kimber Lee is talented and can do what men can. When she's wrestling, she's pretty good; deserving of a top spot. The problem is Dickinson wailing her - unprotected - as hard as possible and giving her a very unsafe move afterwards. Male or female, that's terrible. Especially in this "PC" world, as you call it. It's a safer world where people learn from the mistakes of the past and move forward in protecting others, but feel free to give it a negative association all you want. The world hasn't become more soft, they've become smarter. However, this does tie into one other problem: The nature of unprotected shots as a whole. The nature of using these unprotected chair shots is worse, simply because people who hate this based on gender would hate it whether it was a protected or an unprotected chair shot- simply because they don't know the difference between a protected and unprotected chair shot (and it looks brutal either way.) If that line sounds controversial? It very likely is- but THAT ALSO MAKES WHAT HAPPENED HERE EVEN WORSE.In the modern era of wrestling, the very reason to use unprotected chair shots seems like it boils down to "working the smarks" who know just enough about wrestling to know when the hold is safe- and even though people hate unprotected shots because, well, they're whaling on each other with unprotected shots to the head and trying to give each other concussions, and people are disgusted by needing to do this- they end up getting used because...well, people who know enough about the sport to know a protected chair shot from an unprotected chair shot will be disgusted because they actually risked concussions to do this unprotected chair shot. That makes what happened far worse than even chair shots would be- there is no doubt in my mind- and really, when you think of it due to those things, shouldn't be in others- that they specifically CHOSE to do those shots unprotected solely to make sure every fan- whether you feel intergender matches should or should not happen, whether you're aware of how pro wrestling moves are done or not, whether you like hardcore wrestling or don't like hardcore wrestling- would think this angle was DISGUSTING...and THAT very fact makes this act even sicker and more heinous than it was.
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Post by turkeysandwich on Mar 4, 2015 8:12:55 GMT -5
In the apartment I used to live in the pest control guy, who was about 22, told me about how he had trained to be a pro wrestler. He wrestled for about 2 months after training on his own for years in high school to achieve his dream. He only made it to appear on a few cards for some rinky-dink promotion in Mississippi. He told the promoter that he was willing to take unprotected chair shots, since he thought it would make him quickly move up the card, and after only 2 months of wrestling he had had multiple concussions to the point that he said more than once a week he would wake up not knowing where he was, when he was in his own house.
He had to retire from wrestling at 18, and then had no real education to fall back on. He now had trouble remembering simple things so he didn't think he could make it in college, plus he couldn't afford health care, so he wasn't treating the issues he did have. Since the injuries, the only job he had been able to hold for longer than a couple of months was as a part-time pest control person. It was really a sad story.
I want to not be a wrestling fan sometimes when I know things like this go on. It's really disappointing that after what everyone knows now about concussions, that there are still people cheering for this type of stuff to go on for mere entertainment.
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 4, 2015 8:13:04 GMT -5
To be honest watching that it's not even the chair shot that bothers me the most. It was the way she was mauled about afterwards, given what has to be one of the sloppiest Powerbombs I've ever seen, dragged about a bit more and then folded up on her neck when a simple lateral press would have been suffice. There was no way that in that time he knew if she was alright, there was obviously no communication during the time she was being dragged about and the whole minute or so of action seemed to be entirely careless.
This is coming from someone who is a big fan of the original ECW and counts Mike Awesome as one of his all time favourite wrestlers. Needless to say, I've seen plenty of chair shot and Powerbomb filled matches and that still looked all kinds of wrong to me.
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Steveweiser
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Post by Steveweiser on Mar 4, 2015 8:13:29 GMT -5
To me, Kimber Lee had nothing to prove. She's accepted as a very good wrestler, but somehow she felt that she needed to do more to feel like she's been accepted. All she'll get from it is concussions, a beat down body, and the likelihood that big promotions will never pick her up. LuFisto's words struck a cord with me, how she feels that her entire career was a failure because her goal was getting signed. Getting hit with a stiff chairshot to the head and being given dangerous moves just isn't worth it. And the concensus is that Kimber agreed to the spots, but Dickinson was far too reckless.
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Post by mute09 on Mar 4, 2015 8:37:43 GMT -5
The chair shot should not be what is in question so much as the powerbomb that Dickinson gave her which was ALL him. But let's not pretend he doesn't have a reputation of this already. She agreed to the chair shot and agreed to the powerbomb but there is not way in hell she agreed to almost get droz'd by this ignorant unsafe sack of shit.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Mar 4, 2015 8:40:27 GMT -5
Who was that guy who used to take all those crazy chairshots to the head? He also had this one move, where he'd dive off the top rope (and sometimes off the top of a steel cage) to land a headbutt? I seem to remember something really bad happened to him and his family but we weren't allowed to talk about it. Was I only dreaming it? Mike Awesome?
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cait
Trap-Jaw
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Post by cait on Mar 4, 2015 8:43:46 GMT -5
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 4, 2015 9:27:18 GMT -5
Who was that guy who used to take all those crazy chairshots to the head? He also had this one move, where he'd dive off the top rope (and sometimes off the top of a steel cage) to land a headbutt? I seem to remember something really bad happened to him and his family but we weren't allowed to talk about it. Was I only dreaming it? Mike Awesome? Maybe. Oh, well, he can't have been that important to pro wrestling history. 8|
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jagilki
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Post by jagilki on Mar 4, 2015 9:39:03 GMT -5
I thought this was going to be some kind of joke "sickening display" like the Sprinkles and such........
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 10:04:50 GMT -5
I'll just throw in some Youtube comments here, because they're always "quality": Randy Hardy -everyone saying "this is so wrong" are hypocrites.. most of you probably trended give divas a chance and said they can do EVERYTHING men can and then now this is discusting? this is was the men do so if women can do what men do why is this vile and disturbing? idiots 13 likes. James Pelletier-How is this any worse than what you saw in the original ECW or in The Attitude Era? 6 likes. iamsiaho-to all you stupid SWJ bitches: 1) wrestling is fake 2) if we are all equal, a man, in a violent sport, should be just as entitled to hit a woman as he is another man 3) if wrestling WERE real, you should be applauding this STRONG WOMAN for making it in a MANS sport, rather than doing something feminine and demeaning, like play tennis, field hockey, or, god forbid, cheer-leading. suck my dick. 37 likes. The f*** is wrong with people? I'll probably get a ton of hate for this, but these comments are right on point. Women want equality, this is equality. You have to take the good and the bad. If this happened to a male, there would be no outrage. She chose to do this spot, so I see nothing wrong with it. It seems that most of the world has become so PC and soft. First of all, I object to women or any gender or racial group being thrown into one category as if they all think the same, act the same, and want the same things. To say that all women want "equality" is overgeneralizing, especially because equality means different things to different women, and frankly many women are not concerned about equality. Second, I worry about any man who would use "equality" as justification to brutalize a woman (or man), whether or not she was "ok" with it. I'm not talking about knocking a woman out in a domestic dispute, because under rare circumstances where she is the aggressor, it may be necessary. I'm talking specifically about brutalizing her to satisfy the bloodlust of an audience. It's disgusting. Do you really think that audience is thinking "What a wonderful example of equality! Yes, hit her in the face! Oh my, how enlightened we've become in our thinking! Look at her reaching her potential!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 10:19:07 GMT -5
That shit is indefensible, dude didn't protect her at all on either the chair shot or especially the powerbomb, and for what, 30 dollars and to prove how hardcore that he or wrestling is? She may have agreed to it, but generally you expect to be protected by your opponent. So many of these scrubs have forgotten that wrestling is supposed to look like it hurts without actually hurting instead of just wailing on people because they can and it makes them feel special and important. f*** that entire promotion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 10:21:14 GMT -5
It's a stupid spot that no one of any gender should do.
Partially because it's dangerous and partially because it just wasn't that cool of a sequence. If it were two guys, I'd imagine the outrage would be less, but also no one would give a damn because its basically a lame sequence. There's no real athleticism, creativity or agility needed to hit someone hard with a chair and then running crucifix bomb someone half your size and sloppily as heck, I might add. It was about 2 steps away from shitty backyard wrestling.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by kidglov3s on Mar 4, 2015 10:29:55 GMT -5
Verne Gagne is so far gone he doesn't even remember shoving a man to the ground in a nursing home in 2009, which the man later died from complications from I'm on your side and all, but I would not consider it exceptional for a guy in his 80s+ being confused, agitated, violent, etc. With that population I see at least some degree confusion more often than not, especially overnight. "The daughter of 82-year-old Gagne confirmed that her father has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease." Obviously I have no idea what impact being a pro wrestler had on Verne's cognitive state, but I feel comfortable saying the majority of the many old confused people I've seen were not pro wrestlers. EDIT: Thought I'd do some lazy research for evidence based posting, from UpToDate "How common is delirium? — Nearly 30 percent of older patients experience delirium at some time during hospitalization; the incidence is higher in intensive care units. Among older patients who have had surgery, the risk of delirium varies from 10 to greater than 50 percent" That I mostly work with the older people when they need surgery to repair femur fractures, I guess it makes sense that it feels like it's about 50% or so to me. From Diagnostic Approach to the Confused Elderly Patientwww.aafp.org/afp/1998/0315/p1358.html"An estimated 2 to 4 million Americans have some type of dementing illness.7 The risk of dementing illness increases with age. By the age of 75 years, 10 to 15 percent of elderly persons have a dementing disease; the prevalence of dementia increases to between 25 and 35 percent in persons 85 years of age and older.8 One study7 found Alzheimer's dementia in 47.2 percent of persons who were at least 85 years old. If present population trends continue, the prevalence of severe dementia is expected to triple by the year 2040.9"
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 4, 2015 10:30:03 GMT -5
It's a stupid spot that no one of any gender should do. Partially because it's dangerous and partially because it just wasn't that cool of a sequence. If it were two guys, I'd imagine the outrage would be less, but also no one would give a damn because its basically a lame sequence. There's no real athleticism, creativity or agility needed to hit someone hard with a chair and then running crucifix bomb someone half your size and sloppily as heck, I might add. It was about 2 steps away from shitty backyard wrestling. May as well close the thread, this sums it up perfectly. It was a moment with no redeeming features.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Mar 4, 2015 10:36:15 GMT -5
The chair shot wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting but f*** right off with that Powerbomb. That's some Hernandez type shit, talk about having someone's life in your hands and not caring at all.
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