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Post by austinariesfan88 on Mar 4, 2015 17:30:52 GMT -5
I for one never have been a fan of hardcore wrestling in general, male or female no one should be taking chairshots like that, wrestling is dangerous by itself, so I never understood why people insist on bringing weapons into the mix, just to get a brief pop from the crowd. I found this video where Jim Cornette talks about ECW and hardcore wrestling say what you will about Jim but I agree with on everything he said about hardcore wrestling.
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 4, 2015 17:42:34 GMT -5
Meh, bollocks to her. If she wants to do shit like that, I have no sympathy.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Mar 4, 2015 17:50:00 GMT -5
The chair shot is bad, but turnbuckle bumps are scary. Go to 2:35 on this video. The move Steen does always makes me cringe youtu.be/kbvceYwS4Dw
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,125
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 4, 2015 18:14:10 GMT -5
Verne Gagne is so far gone he doesn't even remember shoving a man to the ground in a nursing home in 2009, which the man later died from complications from I'm on your side and all, but I would not consider it exceptional for a guy in his 80s+ being confused, agitated, violent, etc. With that population I see at least some degree confusion more often than not, especially overnight. "The daughter of 82-year-old Gagne confirmed that her father has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease." Obviously I have no idea what impact being a pro wrestler had on Verne's cognitive state, but I feel comfortable saying the majority of the many old confused people I've seen were not pro wrestlers. EDIT: Thought I'd do some lazy research for evidence based posting, from UpToDate "How common is delirium? — Nearly 30 percent of older patients experience delirium at some time during hospitalization; the incidence is higher in intensive care units. Among older patients who have had surgery, the risk of delirium varies from 10 to greater than 50 percent" That I mostly work with the older people when they need surgery to repair femur fractures, I guess it makes sense that it feels like it's about 50% or so to me. From Diagnostic Approach to the Confused Elderly Patientwww.aafp.org/afp/1998/0315/p1358.html"An estimated 2 to 4 million Americans have some type of dementing illness.7 The risk of dementing illness increases with age. By the age of 75 years, 10 to 15 percent of elderly persons have a dementing disease; the prevalence of dementia increases to between 25 and 35 percent in persons 85 years of age and older.8 One study7 found Alzheimer's dementia in 47.2 percent of persons who were at least 85 years old. If present population trends continue, the prevalence of severe dementia is expected to triple by the year 2040.9" I concede that Verne's maybe not the best example, true, and an unfair assumption on my part.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 62,163
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Mar 4, 2015 18:41:07 GMT -5
Honestly this is why I cringe watching Tommy Dreamer and Abyss matches both men still willingly take unprotected head shots. You don't need to wail someone in the head with a chair to get a point across there are other ways and other places to get a point across
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 4, 2015 18:50:56 GMT -5
Concerning where a lot of the outrage is coming from: I think for most actual wrestling fans, yes, the core of this is how unsafe this was. In an era of such increased awareness of concussions and the way such trauma hurts you for the long term, and from a company where the talent is undoubtedly making very little (comparatively speaking) for what they're giving, there's just no excuse whatsoever for this.
I think the gender aspect of it comes in when you get to the crowd reaction, which dovetails into so many of the social media reactions. Wrestling is already supposed to be about getting the crowd to give an emotional reaction to simulated violence between rivals; ideally, the crowd's passion derives from seeing those rivals clash, and from the story they tell in the process. Here, we instead have a pretty clearly exploitative (in this case not of Kimber Lee (though there may be aspects of that), but of the crowd) situation where the crowd is basically being told "go nuts for this, we're actually having it done to a woman!"
Thus, the source of crowd excitement isn't the story being told: the source is how unsafe the overall work is, combined with the taboo of a woman being thrown around in a way they're not used to seeing, and the bloodlust they let loose becomes truly chilling against that backdrop.
Inter-gender wrestling can be done, and done well; 99.9% of current wrestling companies are in no position to attempt it, and shit like this goes far beyond the pale on multiple levels, from the gender aspect to the clear ridiculousness of the risks involved for the talent whether they be male or female.
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Post by Nickybojelais on Mar 4, 2015 18:52:21 GMT -5
Is this wrestling company aware that the whole point of wrestling is to display the illusion that you are destroying your opponent? Of course mistakes happen in the ring, but I'm staggered that this organisation is essentially authorising an accidentally dangerous action to be retaliated with a deliberately dangerous action. I really cannot believe the tone of that tweet.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,434
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Post by FinalGwen on Mar 4, 2015 18:56:14 GMT -5
Is this wrestling company aware that the whole point of wrestling is to display the illusion that you are destroying your opponent? Of course mistakes happen in the ring, but I'm staggered that this organisation is essentially authorising an accidentally dangerous action to be retaliated with a deliberately dangerous action. I really cannot believe the tone of that tweet. "Hey, hey, don't downplay us! We don't just have ONE dangerous amateur nearly killing people! We've got a bunch of 'em!"
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Shark
Hank Scorpio
The world's only Samurai Ninja Pirate
Posts: 7,045
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Post by Shark on Mar 4, 2015 19:02:11 GMT -5
Concerning where a lot of the outrage is coming from: I think for most actual wrestling fans, yes, the core of this is how unsafe this was. In an era of such increased awareness of concussions and the way such trauma hurts you for the long term, and from a company where the talent is undoubtedly making very little (comparatively speaking) for what they're giving, there's just no excuse whatsoever for this. I think the gender aspect of it comes in when you get to the crowd reaction, which dovetails into so many of the social media reactions. Wrestling is already supposed to be about getting the crowd to give an emotional reaction to simulated violence between rivals; ideally, the crowd's passion derives from seeing those rivals clash, and from the story they tell in the process. Here, we instead have a pretty clearly exploitative (in this case not of Kimber Lee (though there may be aspects of that), but of the crowd) situation where the crowd is basically being told "go nuts for this, we're actually having it done to a woman!" Thus, the source of crowd excitement isn't the story being told: the source is how unsafe the overall work is, combined with the taboo of a woman being thrown around in a way they're not used to seeing, and the bloodlust they let loose becomes truly chilling against that backdrop. Inter-gender wrestling can be done, and done well; 99.9% of current wrestling companies are in no position to attempt it, and shit like this goes far beyond the pale on multiple levels, from the gender aspect to the clear ridiculousness of the risks involved for the talent whether they be male or female. I have personally talked to several guys who have had matches with women and every one of them have always made it clear that they are just normal matches. None of the kind of violence that happened here. In fact they prided themselves on having good matches with the women and not doing anything ultra violent. Inter-gender wrestling can certainly be done. It just needs to have a smart person booking it.
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Emmet Russell
King Koopa
Quieter
The best wrestler on earth.
Posts: 12,526
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Post by Emmet Russell on Mar 4, 2015 19:13:11 GMT -5
Ok this is really nice. Beyond Wrestling tweeted this essentially saying it's ok that Kimber Lee got blasted with a chair because she did the same to Dickinson and I guess it was worse because he didn't get his hand up. I'd also bet that she didn't swing the chair any where close to how hard he did. They're also trying to claim fans are making this a gender issue which it's not. It's about health and safety and the fact that we're still talking about this in 2015 is beyond ridiculous. I really hope they don't think this is a good defence to what was already a stupid enough situation? "Hey guys, it's fine that one worker got clocked in the head, full force, with a chair and then sloppily killed because the same worker ALSO hit their opponent with a chair, full force with zero protection." What a bunch of idiots. They have no idea what they're doing.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Mar 4, 2015 19:25:05 GMT -5
I really do hope that she is reading some bullshit prepared statement because if not then she's pretty much a idiot. Not to mention that the promotion must be ran by f***wits as because just one of your wrestlers was stupid enough to take an unprotected chain shot doesn't make it only to for him to return the favor and then nearly break the neck of someone with one of the most sloppy looking powerbombs in the history of sloppy looking powebombs. But seriously I would of liked to believe that in 2015 by now all these indies wrestlers would of figured out the obvious... that nearly killing yourself with some needlessly reckless and shitty looking hardcore spot or bump in some fly by night sub bush league promotion with a tiny audience isn't going to help you get recognized and just makes you look stupid. That and whatever retarded holy shit moment that gets uploaded onto youtube will be forgotten after a week or two so its not worth the risk.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 4, 2015 19:26:07 GMT -5
Unprotected chair shots in 2015 is damned dumb, regardless of gender.
It's got nothing to do with toughness; this shit ain't real, you're not SUPPOSED to get hurt.
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Post by Starshine on Mar 4, 2015 19:28:43 GMT -5
The fact it was done to a woman isn't so much the main issue to me than how f***ing dangerous that looked. The fact it was from a guy doing it to a woman just makes it sleazier.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Mar 4, 2015 19:43:43 GMT -5
Not to mention that comparing this to stuff like The Two Man Power Trip on Lita is beyond pointless because THEY WERE HEELS. We were supposed to find their actions heinous and appalling. This was done for the sake of entertainment.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 4, 2015 19:47:42 GMT -5
Plus, to my knowledge, the Lita thing only LOOKED brutal. And to your point, it was presented as such. In context it was meant to be horrifying.
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Post by StormanReigns on Mar 4, 2015 20:24:36 GMT -5
I really do hope that she is reading some bullshit prepared statement because if not then she's pretty much a idiot. Not to mention that the promotion must be ran by f***wits as because just one of your wrestlers was stupid enough to take an unprotected chain shot doesn't make it only to for him to return the favor and then nearly break the neck of someone with one of the most sloppy looking powerbombs in the history of sloppy looking powebombs. But seriously I would of liked to believe that in 2015 by now all these indies wrestlers would of figured out the obvious... that nearly killing yourself with some needlessly reckless and shitty looking hardcore spot or bump in some fly by night sub bush league promotion with a tiny audience isn't going to help you get recognized and just makes you look stupid. That and whatever retarded holy shit moment that gets uploaded onto youtube will be forgotten after a week or two so its not worth the risk. If she said anything different she would garner tremendous heat. There is no way in hell she agreed for it to be that bad.
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Post by Angus Mcloud on Mar 4, 2015 20:25:51 GMT -5
Not to mention that comparing this to stuff like The Two Man Power Trip on Lita is beyond pointless because THEY WERE HEELS. We were supposed to find their actions heinous and appalling. This was done for the sake of entertainment. Devil's advocate for one second. Chris Dickinson is also a heel.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Mar 4, 2015 21:06:30 GMT -5
Not to mention that comparing this to stuff like The Two Man Power Trip on Lita is beyond pointless because THEY WERE HEELS. We were supposed to find their actions heinous and appalling. This was done for the sake of entertainment. Devil's advocate for one second. Chris Dickinson is also a heel. Ah ok, I was under the impression he was supposed to be a face. Fair enough in that case, my point is essentially voided, but I still think this was incredibly reckless
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Mar 4, 2015 21:12:43 GMT -5
The chair shot to the head was WAY too forceful, if you must use a chairshot to the head you don't swing that f***ing hard. At least it was one of those plastic chairs rather than a metal one otherwise she'd be f***ing dead.
The real problem I had was how hard he threw her, she almost cracked her f***ing head open on the ring post.
I'm sorry for how many times I dropped the F-bomb in this post but this was ridiculous.
I get that the hands are supposed to cushion the blow, but it doesn't do a damn thing, if you're going to swing WAY above where her hands are!
A chair shot to the head should be (If at all) used sparingly and definitely not with that kind of force.
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Post by froggyfrog on Mar 4, 2015 22:06:08 GMT -5
thats what she signed up for, blame the booker if youre against it, not dickinson It is 2015 you f****** talentless asswipe. This is not edgy anymore, it's just moronic. Do these people seriously think they know more than doctors? This shit needed to go the way of the Dodo bird a long time ago. Dickinson is p talenthed tho tbh
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