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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Mar 4, 2015 23:56:15 GMT -5
Is this see how far we can go with misogyny week at fan? Or does that Schattenguy have multi-accounts? Brutalizing a woman for exploitative purposes does not raise women up. And for the record back in 2010 TNA decided to do an unprotected chairshot to Rob Terry from Homicide. 2 days after Kanyons suicide, determined to be from depression caused by brain damage. Lance Storm went off and it got an 8 page thread here. And several follow up threads. And was often a point mentioned in TNA is the stupid threads. There wasn't a single woman involved. It was an indy darling beating a hated green musclehead and plenty of people were still pissed off. So yeah I do think people would be upset if there wasn't the woman element. Source; history. officialfan.proboards.com/thread/332549/lance-storm-boycotts-impact
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Post by Danimal on Mar 5, 2015 0:00:05 GMT -5
Honestly this is why I cringe watching Tommy Dreamer and Abyss matches both men still willingly take unprotected head shots. You don't need to wail someone in the head with a chair to get a point across there are other ways and other places to get a point across Ya, it's an unnecessary cheap theatric. As far as this instance goes it was an unnecessary cheap theatric that crossed the line, especially with the Border Toss into the buckle and crotch in the face cover thrown-on top.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 0:06:02 GMT -5
That is sexism by definition. You're fine with men beating up on men and women beating up on women but you're saying that it somehow isn't okay for women and men to be treated as equals. I'm sorry man, but that is absolutely sexism. Kimber Lee can and does hang with the men. Her gimmick is the badass damsel who ISN'T in distress. No, the definition of sexism is "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." There's a reason stuff like Chikara gets a pass, or The World's Cutest Tag Team gets a pass and stuff like this and Bully putting Dixie through a table doesn't. It's rooted in the shock of "LOOK AT THIS MAN BRUTALIZE THIS WOMAN," not "LOOK AT THESE FANTASTIC COMPETITORS!" While I can see HMark's point (even though he's wrong in the context of Kimber's whole career and looking at it only from the context of a short, one-sided clip), you're just way off-base here Chaz. You flat out said that you had a problem with men beating up on women in the ring, but obviously not men beating up on men. Therein lies what I feel is sexism. Again, by definition. You didn't comment on exploitation. You just said you don't like to see men vs women. Also, it's so weird how these conversations always morph into the point that those of us against something like this are somehow sexist because we don't want to see men beat up women. Is that a sexist statement? Of f***ing course it is. HMark argued the exploitative viewpoint, which is one position. Yours just came off as sexist as hell to me. "I don't mind men vs men or women vs women, I just don't want to see men vs women"The simple old test is if you replaced men with "whites" and women with "blacks" and said the exact same statement... would it be racist? Of f***ing course it would man. I'm not judging your character on the statement, you've always seemed like a decent person, I'm just saying the viewpoint you were claiming was sexist as all hell. Either way, I'm feeling my comments and viewpoints are being misconstrued and/or misunderstood. I think the harder I try the more I'd just piss off people who can't see it the same way so I'll just stop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 0:09:38 GMT -5
Is this see how far we can go with misogyny week at fan? Or does that Schattenguy have multi-accounts? Brutalizing a woman for exploitative purposes does not raise women up. And for the record back in 2010 TNA decided to do an unprotected chairshot to Rob Terry from Homicide. 2 days after Kanyons suicide, determined to be from depression caused by brain damage. Lance Storm went off and it got an 8 page thread here. And several follow up threads. And was often a point mentioned in TNA is the stupid threads. There wasn't a single woman involved. It was an indy darling beating a hated green musclehead and plenty of people were still pissed off. So yeah I do think people would be upset if there wasn't the woman element. Source; history. officialfan.proboards.com/thread/332549/lance-storm-boycotts-impactOkay one more comment... You are speaking of the people here at FAN who are well-versed in wrestling in general. I was speaking of "the public at large" who are most definitely making it a viral video for the exclusive reason that it's male vs female. I fully agree that the spots were just moronic and shouldn't have happened. I'm just saying that everyone who has an issue with the Kimber Lee clip solely because she's a female getting beaten up by a male is doing her a huge disservice and showing her disrespect.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Mar 5, 2015 0:28:24 GMT -5
Is this see how far we can go with misogyny week at fan? Or does that Schattenguy have multi-accounts? Brutalizing a woman for exploitative purposes does not raise women up. And for the record back in 2010 TNA decided to do an unprotected chairshot to Rob Terry from Homicide. 2 days after Kanyons suicide, determined to be from depression caused by brain damage. Lance Storm went off and it got an 8 page thread here. And several follow up threads. And was often a point mentioned in TNA is the stupid threads. There wasn't a single woman involved. It was an indy darling beating a hated green musclehead and plenty of people were still pissed off. So yeah I do think people would be upset if there wasn't the woman element. Source; history. officialfan.proboards.com/thread/332549/lance-storm-boycotts-impactOkay one more comment... You are speaking of the people here at FAN who are well-versed in wrestling in general. I was speaking of "the public at large" who are most definitely making it a viral video for the exclusive reason that it's male vs female. I fully agree that the spots were just moronic and shouldn't have happened. I'm just saying that everyone who has an issue with the Kimber Lee clip solely because she's a female getting beaten up by a male is doing her a huge disservice and showing her disrespect. ...but that's the point. The people who pulled this stunt did so to try to get attention beyond the people who regularly view Kimber Lee's matches. It should come as no surprise that the majority of those people just see a man brutalizing a woman since that is all the context they have. That's another big difference between stuff like Lita getting beat up and Mae Young taking a powerbomb. Beyond the proven safety of the performers doing it there was easily accessible context for what happened. Nobody got mad at Eddie/Jericho/Jarret whomever against Chyna because they were booked and billed as competitive. This was booked to look like a murder of a smaller woman by a bigger man. You can't blame people for judging it as such. Is there a double standard. Yes, I suppose a little bit but it isn't an unfair one. There is a reason historically why somethings touch people off. Can you book a match where the loser has to be the winners man servant, say Miz vs. Mizdow? Sure, it would amp Miz's heat even more. However, change out Mizdow to R Truth and it starts to get a bit of an uglier undertone. Maybe it's racist in that it prevents R Truth from having a spot, but the bigger issue is that it appears racist to go with Truth as a slave. And wrestling is still about selling appearances.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Mar 5, 2015 0:29:18 GMT -5
No, the definition of sexism is "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." There's a reason stuff like Chikara gets a pass, or The World's Cutest Tag Team gets a pass and stuff like this and Bully putting Dixie through a table doesn't. It's rooted in the shock of "LOOK AT THIS MAN BRUTALIZE THIS WOMAN," not "LOOK AT THESE FANTASTIC COMPETITORS!" While I can see HMark's point (even though he's wrong in the context of Kimber's whole career and looking at it only from the context of a short, one-sided clip), you're just way off-base here Chaz. You flat out said that you had a problem with men beating up on women in the ring, but obviously not men beating up on men. Therein lies what I feel is sexism. Again, by definition. You didn't comment on exploitation. You just said you don't like to see men vs women. Also, it's so weird how these conversations always morph into the point that those of us against something like this are somehow sexist because we don't want to see men beat up women. Is that a sexist statement? Of f***ing course it is. HMark argued the exploitative viewpoint, which is one position. Yours just came off as sexist as hell to me. "I don't mind men vs men or women vs women, I just don't want to see men vs women"The simple old test is if you replaced men with "whites" and women with "blacks" and said the exact same statement... would it be racist? Of f***ing course it would man. I'm not judging your character on the statement, you've always seemed like a decent person, I'm just saying the viewpoint you were claiming was sexist as all hell. Either way, I'm feeling my comments and viewpoints are being misconstrued and/or misunderstood. I think the harder I try the more I'd just piss off people who can't see it the same way so I'll just stop. So, for the sake of discussion, do you not see domestic disputes where a man beats his wife as any different from two guys fighting in a bar?
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Post by Mid-Carder on Mar 5, 2015 1:15:02 GMT -5
As long as violence against women is still a cultural problem in the world (and it is), this sort of deliberate bloodlust from male-on-female violence is dangerous. A lot of the comments on the video are seriously damning.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 1:29:54 GMT -5
While I can see HMark's point (even though he's wrong in the context of Kimber's whole career and looking at it only from the context of a short, one-sided clip), you're just way off-base here Chaz. You flat out said that you had a problem with men beating up on women in the ring, but obviously not men beating up on men. Therein lies what I feel is sexism. Again, by definition. You didn't comment on exploitation. You just said you don't like to see men vs women. Is that a sexist statement? Of f***ing course it is. HMark argued the exploitative viewpoint, which is one position. Yours just came off as sexist as hell to me. "I don't mind men vs men or women vs women, I just don't want to see men vs women"The simple old test is if you replaced men with "whites" and women with "blacks" and said the exact same statement... would it be racist? Of f***ing course it would man. I'm not judging your character on the statement, you've always seemed like a decent person, I'm just saying the viewpoint you were claiming was sexist as all hell. Either way, I'm feeling my comments and viewpoints are being misconstrued and/or misunderstood. I think the harder I try the more I'd just piss off people who can't see it the same way so I'll just stop. So, for the sake of discussion, do you not see domestic disputes where a man beats his wife as any different from two guys fighting in a bar? I was trying to step out of the discussion, but okay. I do see the difference between a bar fight and domestic abuse. It's very worrying that you see them as so similar as to even ask me that question. One is a display of violence fueled by impaired judgment. The other is a display of power that comes from a desire for subjugation.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Mar 5, 2015 2:01:03 GMT -5
So, for the sake of discussion, do you not see domestic disputes where a man beats his wife as any different from two guys fighting in a bar? I was trying to step out of the discussion, but okay. I do see the difference between a bar fight and domestic abuse. It's very worrying that you see them as so similar as to even ask me that question. One is a display of violence fueled by impaired judgment. The other is a display of power that comes from a desire for subjugation. The thing is the average wrestling match is booked to let the average joe live out his barfight bad ass desires vicariously. This lets sick f***s live out their domestic abuse fantasies visariously.
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Mar 5, 2015 2:26:39 GMT -5
I honestly am not super happy watching unprotected spots in general anymore, after what we know now. The once awesome clip of Big Show swinging Rey into the turnbuckle on the stretcher is hard to watch now when all I can focus on is his head bouncing like a basketball, since he was strapped in and couldn't protect himself. It's just not worth it. Awesome? Big Show? It was Brock Lesnar.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 5, 2015 2:32:58 GMT -5
I honestly am not super happy watching unprotected spots in general anymore, after what we know now. The once awesome clip of Big Show swinging Rey into the turnbuckle on the stretcher is hard to watch now when all I can focus on is his head bouncing like a basketball, since he was strapped in and couldn't protect himself. It's just not worth it. Awesome? Big Show? It was Brock Lesnar. You're either mixing it up with when Brock F5'd his legs into the turnbuckle, or he's done this twice. www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUB-sVWI4Oo
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Mar 5, 2015 2:53:29 GMT -5
Awesome? Big Show? It was Brock Lesnar. You're either mixing it up with when Brock F5'd his legs into the turnbuckle, or he's done this twice. www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUB-sVWI4OoOh wow, Big Show has been so boring to me these last few years, my mind is replacing him with Brock in the good parts. I stand corrected
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Capt Lunatic
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Post by Capt Lunatic on Mar 5, 2015 3:11:58 GMT -5
How much of a story will this be when Kimber goes over in the rematch?
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Emmet Russell
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Post by Emmet Russell on Mar 5, 2015 3:54:16 GMT -5
I seem to be great at creating controversial threads lately ...
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Post by Ryushinku on Mar 5, 2015 3:55:20 GMT -5
If it doesn't involve her or her opponent blasting each other full force with chairshots and sloppy dangerous work with risk of permanent damage, probably very little. People aren't caring about the result of a match here.
Pro wrestler takes liberties with pro wrestler and could've potentially ended their career by doing so. That's a stupid and disgraceful situation no matter what gender.
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Post by Chip Chipperson on Mar 5, 2015 4:12:39 GMT -5
Also, it's so weird how these conversations always morph into the point that those of us against something like this are somehow sexist because we don't want to see men beat up women. If you view one gender as weaker then another or want different treatment based on gender it's sexist. Some of the posts here and a lot of discussion elsewhere are people saying "Oh my gosh! A man shouldn't do that to a woman!" which is indeed sexist. Not negative sexism but sexism nonetheless. Vern is 100% correct in what he said. This would be a nothing story if it was a guy doing it to another guy.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Mar 5, 2015 6:48:08 GMT -5
Also, it's so weird how these conversations always morph into the point that those of us against something like this are somehow sexist because we don't want to see men beat up women. If you view one gender as weaker then another or want different treatment based on gender it's sexist. Some of the posts here and a lot of discussion elsewhere are people saying "Oh my gosh! A man shouldn't do that to a woman!" which is indeed sexist. Not negative sexism but sexism nonetheless. Vern is 100% correct in what he said. This would be a nothing story if it was a guy doing it to another guy. It would be a nothing mainstream/viral story if it was guy vs. guy. However it was done guy vs. girl as a gimmick to get more attention. That's exploitation. The promoter is was playing on perceptions of people appalled by violence against women. So he's getting that in spades. However, if the video got out here or any wrestling site man vs. woman or even woman vs. woman it would still cause an uproar. People are generally done with garbage. Because gender aside it was booked as a weaker smaller person being beaten brutally by a bigger person. Spike Dudley filled that role for years and has spoken out against it since then and was badly injured more than once because he played little victim to get other people cheap heel heat. We know now what we didn't in the nineties. Remember also when everyone laughed at Dave crying over wrestler's deaths taken out of context. Well it's become still real to a lot more of us since then unfortunately.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 7:24:30 GMT -5
If you view one gender as weaker then another or want different treatment based on gender it's sexist. Some of the posts here and a lot of discussion elsewhere are people saying "Oh my gosh! A man shouldn't do that to a woman!" which is indeed sexist. Not negative sexism but sexism nonetheless. Vern is 100% correct in what he said. This would be a nothing story if it was a guy doing it to another guy. It would be a nothing mainstream/viral story if it was guy vs. guy. However it was done guy vs. girl as a gimmick to get more attention. That's exploitation. The promoter is was playing on perceptions of people appalled by violence against women. So he's getting that in spades. However, if the video got out here or any wrestling site man vs. woman or even woman vs. woman it would still cause an uproar. People are generally done with garbage. Because gender aside it was booked as a weaker smaller person being beaten brutally by a bigger person. Spike Dudley filled that role for years and has spoken out against it since then and was badly injured more than once because he played little victim to get other people cheap heel heat. We know now what we didn't in the nineties. Remember also when everyone laughed at Dave crying over wrestler's deaths taken out of context. Well it's become still real to a lot more of us since then unfortunately. When it comes to the first and third bolded parts... You're arguing from a very misinformed position. Go watch any of Kimber Lee's intergender matches so you can come back here better informed as to how she's treated, portrayed and how her character actually works. Especially the parts with her beating the holy f*** out of guys and pinning them in the EXACT SAME WAY. When it comes to the second bolded part: You're saying that if Daniel Bryan fought Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania it would be exploitation if he didn't win? Or at the very least Brock would be forced to treat him differently than he does guys like Cena? What about guys like Rey Mysterio? Are you basically saying because they're smaller/different that they don't deserve a job? I mean they couldn't work without winning every match in your scenario of "smaller weaker people being beaten = horrible exploitation". Sorry if I'm coming off as callous, but I get slightly testy when called a misogynist for saying that a woman has just as much right to step into the ring with a man as another man does. I might as well go ahead and say it: The only people seeing it as gender exploitative are the non-wrestling fans watching the viral video without knowing about the scene and actual sexist (although obviously denying) wrestling fans who have never seen Kimber Lee in intergender action to know she gives as well as she gets and are appalled at the "violence against a woman". In reality guys have been on the opposite end of Kimber Lee doing that to them multiple times. You know why? BECAUSE THEY TREAT HER AS AN EQUAL. Something that everyone crying "Gender Exploitation!" obviously does not. The ONLY thing in the video to get angry about was how brutal and dangerously sloppy the moves were, not about how it was a guy vs a girl.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 5, 2015 7:56:14 GMT -5
Vern is 100% correct in what he said. This would be a nothing story if it was a guy doing it to another guy. That is so much BS I'll never get the stink off. And, for the record, I am a woman. What is utterly sickening about that "exhibition" (because that was no match worth watching) is that, in case my first post of this thread flew over your head, we are eight years past a murder-suicide involving one of pro wrestling's greatest technicians who also engaged in hardcore wrestling, and it appears that nothing has been learned from it, particularly from some of these fly-by-night promotions that exploit its talent. How much did she get paid to take that? Thirty bucks? Did she even get paid? This isn't simply a gender issue (though quite frankly, anyone who espouses the idea that any woman should have that coming to her because "EQUALITY" is even more crazy and "evil" than Benoit was;) it's an issue about what audiences are prepared to accept as pro wrestling and the responsibilities that promoters and talent have towards their business. Were I their promoter, both of the principals would have been fired and blacklisted before they left the building that night. Were I a wrestler, I would have walked away from the deal where that stunt was on the table, and were I a member of that audience, I'd have walked out and demanded a refund, then made a phone call to either the state licensing board or to the media. Nobody involved in that did their profession any favours.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 8:08:52 GMT -5
Vern is 100% correct in what he said. This would be a nothing story if it was a guy doing it to another guy. That is so much BS I'll never get the stink off. And, for the record, I am a woman. What is utterly sickening about that "exhibition" (because that was no match worth watching) is that, in case my first post of this thread flew over your head, we are eight years past a murder-suicide involving one of pro wrestling's greatest technicians who also engaged in hardcore wrestling, and it appears that nothing has been learned from it, particularly from some of these fly-by-night promotions that exploit its talent. How much did she get paid to take that? Thirty bucks? Did she even get paid? This isn't simply a gender issue (though quite frankly, anyone who espouses the idea that any woman should have that coming to her because "EQUALITY" is even more crazy and "evil" than Benoit was;) it's an issue about what audiences are prepared to accept as pro wrestling and the responsibilities that promoters and talent have towards their business. Were I their promoter, both of the principals would have been fired and blacklisted before they left the building that night. Were I a wrestler, I would have walked away from the deal where that stunt was on the table, and were I a member of that audience, I'd have walked out and demanded a refund, then made a phone call to either the state licensing board or to the media. Nobody involved in that did their profession any favours. Again, I agree that the chair shot and buckle bomb were both stupid and dangerous. I never said any woman should "have that coming", and the Benoit comparison is perhaps the most disgusting thing that's been said in this whole thread. You should be ashamed of yourself. I'm simply expressing my opinion that if a woman wants to get in there and be just as stiff with a man she should definitely be allowed to do so... without everyone crying "exploitation". Again, they treat her as an equal. I think that everyone saying she shouldn't be allowed to do it are being the sexist ones. She obviously busts her ass to compete and be right on the level (hell, better) than a lot of the bigger, stronger guys she gets in there with. Feeling it necessary to coddle her, say it's wrong when a guy fights her and be offended for her is just hugely disrespectful to her.
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