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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 5, 2015 9:08:56 GMT -5
Also, it's so weird how these conversations always morph into the point that those of us against something like this are somehow sexist because we don't want to see men beat up women. If you view one gender as weaker then another or want different treatment based on gender it's sexist. Some of the posts here and a lot of discussion elsewhere are people saying "Oh my gosh! A man shouldn't do that to a woman!" which is indeed sexist. Not negative sexism but sexism nonetheless. Vern is 100% correct in what he said. This would be a nothing story if it was a guy doing it to another guy. I'm going to have to insist you go back and actually read the thread. Countless posters have been saying "This would be disgusting regardless of gender", one poster even put up the board's collective reaction to the Rob Terry/Homicide unprotected chair shot incident, and many posters in this thread have been discussing how it's not "sexism" to feel disgust or at least unease when male-on-female violence is used in an exploitative manner. Plus, there is the simple physiological reality: men, for the most part, simply are physically larger and often stronger than women (with some definite exceptions, certainly), and that played into what's wrong with this angle; it is not, and has never been, sexism to point out that there's a physical difference between the sexes, and while that shouldn't preclude inter-gender matches from happening, it IS a factor to consider when you're booking a match like this and the woman involved is not, say, Amazing/Awesome Kong. Speaking as a student and teacher of history and the social sciences, I'd really, really appreciate if people stopped trying to take possession of what words like "sexism" and "racism" actually mean. There are countless studies, articles, journals, and books out there that go into great academic depth on such subjects and cover them from great historical and sociological perspectives. I know we're all entitled to our opinions on any number of issues, but, for comparison's sake, as a social scientist I wouldn't barge into a chemistry lab and start explaining or claiming to comprehend chemical compounds, but it feels like people just like doing that with social science terms and ideas. Opinions are fine, but it'd be great if we could avoid coopting words, terms, or ideas that have untold tons of academic background if we're not going to bother doing the research on them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 9:13:48 GMT -5
It WOULD be disgusting regardless of gender. No one's disputing that (at least not that I've seen). People are saying it wouldn't have been such a "big deal" viral video if it wasn't for the man on woman violence.
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 5, 2015 9:18:01 GMT -5
...dragged about a bit more and then folded up on her neck when a simple lateral press would have been suffice... Yeah man, that pin was over the top. It surely wasn't part of the storyline about how Kimber Lee pins her male opponents the same damn way. Has anyone here that's commenting about how sick Chris is even seen a Kimber Lee match? You guys seem seriously uninformed as to her character and how her gimmick works. The fact that she does it or it was part of the storyline is so far beyond the issue here that it can't even see where the issue ends. If they had just worked a safe finish, where everything was in control then I can honestly say I would have had no problem with that pin, especially if it fit in with the context of the match. But the fact is that the ending was the total opposite of safe or in control. There was clearly no communication, he gave the other wrestler no respite or recovery time and seemed intent on blasting them as hard and as fast as possible before promptly using his 100lbs weight advantage to crush down on their neck... it doesn't take a trained professional to realise that probably isn't the best plan after the person you're working with has taken two very dangerous moves in the space of 30 seconds. So no, this isn't down to me not being fully aware of their work, this is down to me as someone that's watched wrestling on and off for the best part of 20 years and can see when something clearly doesn't look right. I would have had exactly the same reaction if the 300 lbs Ryback had mimicked this move for move with a 200 lbs Kofi Kingston for example. Wrestlers have a duty to keep their fellow wrestlers safe and at no point did I see any attempt to do that here, the fact that it was intergender or part of the storyline is irrelevant, it was totally out of control and not what pro-wrestling should be about.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 5, 2015 9:24:04 GMT -5
I'm very against anyone being taken advantage of in the ring. That being said, the people proclaiming this isn't about gender are kidding themselves. The ONLY reason this is getting so much play is because it's male on female violence. If it had been Pinkie taking the chairshot and powerbomb with Kimber coming in the ring after to "check" on him no one would have given nearly as much of a damn. That finish was stupidly dangerous but the real sickening thing here is that, no matter how hard Kimber Lee works to show she's just as tough as any man she gets in the ring with, the public at large will continue to coddle her and scream for vengeance when she's on the receiving end of violence. Even when she's JUST as violent with her male counterparts (which, if most of the people whining about this video had watched the rest of her matches, they would have seen). You can hate the hardcore wrestling. You SHOULD hate when someone's being taken advantage of in the ring. You hating this just because it's the big strong guy beating up on the poor widdle girl is just pure f***ing sickening sexism. I don't give a shit that she's a woman to quite frank. It'd be just as stupid if she had a penis.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 5, 2015 9:33:24 GMT -5
Was Dickinson supposed to be a face here? Everybody doesn't need to be Ricky Steamboat, but when I argue for kinder good guys in wrestling this (and by extension, #ItHappens) is the kind of shit I'm talking about.
That was like everything wrong with indie wrestling, wrapped up into one sad and neckbeardy package.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Mar 5, 2015 9:41:08 GMT -5
Was Dickinson supposed to be a face here? I don't believe so.
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Johnny B. Decent
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Mar 5, 2015 9:42:48 GMT -5
No man who wears trunks that high-cut can be good.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Mar 5, 2015 9:48:31 GMT -5
Was Dickinson supposed to be a face here? Everybody doesn't need to be Ricky Steamboat, but when I argue for kinder good guys in wrestling this (and by extension, #ItHappens) is the kind of shit I'm talking about. That was like everything wrong with indie wrestling, wrapped up into one sad and neckbeardy package. Not a chance. I can barely think of a time when Dickinson has been a face. Denver Colorado (the fool, not the place) needs to stop tweeting about the topic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 9:59:15 GMT -5
I'm simply expressing my opinion that if a woman wants to get in there and be just as stiff with a man she should definitely be allowed to do so... without everyone crying "exploitation". Again, they treat her as an equal. I think that everyone saying she shouldn't be allowed to do it are being the sexist ones. She obviously busts her ass to compete and be right on the level (hell, better) than a lot of the bigger, stronger guys she gets in there with. Feeling it necessary to coddle her, say it's wrong when a guy fights her and be offended for her is just hugely disrespectful to her. There is no "compete". This is pro wrestling. It's not as if she's driving in NASCAR, challenging Roger Federer or squaring off against Evander Holyfield. She's in there absorbing an unnecessary beating. Do you understand "unnecessary"? That's what people are finding so objectionable. She's not achieving anything as a professional athlete, much less is she achieving anything for the female gender. If this were Ronda Rousey in there legitimately beating men, we'd all have to step back and acknowledge that a woman can compete in a men's division, the same way that we acknowledge Danica Patrick in NASCAR, because she is proving that women can be as legitimate as men in a sport traditionally held to be a male dominated. The only thing Kimber Lee is forcing us to acknowledge is that a woman can absorb a beating from a man, because if this were a legitimate competition, the odds suggest that she would get dominated. This is probably going to offend you, but do you know the underlying reason why most sports have a male and a female division? It's because MOST women do not have the physical attributes to be competitive with men when all things are equal. So, rather than throwing both genders together where MOST women are going to be overmatched, they are kept separate so that we can appreciate the skills and accomplishments of women. Is that sexist? Yeah, but it's also reality in its more inconvenient form.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 10:07:20 GMT -5
I've said before, male on female violence has a place in wrestling if the story is told properly. Jake slapping Liz? Great. Austin Stunning Stacy for not drinking a beer with him? Stupid. There are degrees, and I think if presented properly, it can draw or at least provide compelling television.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 10:11:14 GMT -5
I'm simply expressing my opinion that if a woman wants to get in there and be just as stiff with a man she should definitely be allowed to do so... without everyone crying "exploitation". Again, they treat her as an equal. I think that everyone saying she shouldn't be allowed to do it are being the sexist ones. She obviously busts her ass to compete and be right on the level (hell, better) than a lot of the bigger, stronger guys she gets in there with. Feeling it necessary to coddle her, say it's wrong when a guy fights her and be offended for her is just hugely disrespectful to her. There is no "compete". This is pro wrestling. It's not as if she's driving in NASCAR, challenging Roger Federer or squaring off against Evander Holyfield. She's in there absorbing an unnecessary beating. Do you understand "unnecessary"? That's what people are finding so objectionable. She's not achieving anything as a professional athlete, much less is she achieving anything for the female gender. If this were Ronda Rousey in there legitimately beating men, we'd all have to step back and acknowledge that a woman can compete in a men's division, the same way that we acknowledge Danica Patrick in NASCAR, because she is proving that women can be as legitimate as men in a sport traditionally held to be a male dominated. The only thing Kimber Lee is forcing us to acknowledge is that a woman can absorb a beating from a man, because if this were a legitimate competition, the odds suggest that she would get dominated. This is probably going to offend you, but do you know the underlying reason why most sports have a male and a female division? It's because MOST women do not have the physical attributes to be competitive with men when all things are equal. So, rather than throwing both genders together where MOST women are going to be overmatched, they are kept separate so that we can appreciate the skills and accomplishments of women. Is that sexist? Yeah, but it's also reality in its more inconvenient form. I'm not offended, I get everything you're saying and agree with most of it. Your point about appreciating the skills and accomplishments of women separately from men falls flat though when you have girls like Kimber Lee out there doing just as well as the men she's fighting. Saying she needs to be held up to separate standards seems disrespectful to me when she's obviously busting her ass and meeting the standards you require of men. Either way though, our arguing isn't really solving anything. Both sides of the argument seem to have very steadfast beliefs and both side's points have been made. The continued discussion really gets us nowhere and only serves as a spark to start another overly heated argument. I say we just call it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 10:20:45 GMT -5
There is no "compete". This is pro wrestling. It's not as if she's driving in NASCAR, challenging Roger Federer or squaring off against Evander Holyfield. She's in there absorbing an unnecessary beating. Do you understand "unnecessary"? That's what people are finding so objectionable. She's not achieving anything as a professional athlete, much less is she achieving anything for the female gender. If this were Ronda Rousey in there legitimately beating men, we'd all have to step back and acknowledge that a woman can compete in a men's division, the same way that we acknowledge Danica Patrick in NASCAR, because she is proving that women can be as legitimate as men in a sport traditionally held to be a male dominated. The only thing Kimber Lee is forcing us to acknowledge is that a woman can absorb a beating from a man, because if this were a legitimate competition, the odds suggest that she would get dominated. This is probably going to offend you, but do you know the underlying reason why most sports have a male and a female division? It's because MOST women do not have the physical attributes to be competitive with men when all things are equal. So, rather than throwing both genders together where MOST women are going to be overmatched, they are kept separate so that we can appreciate the skills and accomplishments of women. Is that sexist? Yeah, but it's also reality in its more inconvenient form. I'm not offended, I get everything you're saying and agree with most of it. Your point about appreciating the skills and accomplishments of women separately from men falls flat though when you have girls like Kimber Lee out there doing just as well as the men she's fighting. Saying she needs to be held up to separate standards seems disrespectful to me when she's obviously busting her ass and meeting the standards you require of men. Either way though, our arguing isn't really solving anything. Both sides of the argument seem to have very steadfast beliefs and both side's points have been made. The continued discussion really gets us nowhere and only serves as a spark to start another overly heated argument. I say we just call it. But, this is the problem. Kimber Lee is not "fighting" anyone. Thus, what "standards" are we even discussing? You're probably right that we're getting nowhere. I think there is somewhat of a contextual disconnect between the arguments.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 5, 2015 11:12:00 GMT -5
Again, I agree that the chair shot and buckle bomb were both stupid and dangerous. I never said any woman should "have that coming", and the Benoit comparison is perhaps the most disgusting thing that's been said in this whole thread. You should be ashamed of yourself. I'm simply expressing my opinion that if a woman wants to get in there and be just as stiff with a man she should definitely be allowed to do so... without everyone crying "exploitation". Again, they treat her as an equal. I think that everyone saying she shouldn't be allowed to do it are being the sexist ones. She obviously busts her ass to compete and be right on the level (hell, better) than a lot of the bigger, stronger guys she gets in there with. Feeling it necessary to coddle her, say it's wrong when a guy fights her and be offended for her is just hugely disrespectful to her. My comments about the sexism behind that incident were tangential to my central point, but since you seem fixated on the "equality" issue, I will ask a number of rhetorical questions (because I don't believe that you or I know the answers.) How much was she paid for that stunt, relative to her opponent? How much are either of them being paid to jeopardize their careers and lives by performing such a spot? How many of those in attendance were cheering the "beatdown"? How many of them were truly appreciative of her talents and sacrifice during that match, and how many were merely cheering on the fact that a woman was getting beaten up? How many of them were wishing they could do the same to the women in their lives? How many of them actually do that to the women in their lives? How many of them turn around and call Chris Benoit a cold-blooded murderer and feel he cheated them of their revenge by "taking the coward's way out?" Are those the kinds of fans that should be pandered to? Is pandering to that crowd what's "best for business?" Right now, pro wrestling has a huge frickin' image problem: promotions like Beyond Wrestling are not helping it. There is a "rape culture" discussion going on in the public sphere, one which makes what happened here look really, _really_ bad from a gender standpoint. There should also be a discussion about the role of these promotions, this wrestling style and those who participate in it and those who watch it - not only from a gender standpoint, but more basically from the standpoint that wrestling has somehow, in the last ten to twenty years, really lost its foundation as a sport and its direction as a sport-based entertainment form. There is a nihilism in stunts like this incident that strip away completely the value of pro wrestling either as a "sport" or even as an art form.
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Post by froggyfrog on Mar 5, 2015 11:36:40 GMT -5
If you don't like it don't watch it. Everyone who participated consented.
This thread sucks.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 5, 2015 12:18:25 GMT -5
If you don't like it don't watch it. Everyone who participated consented. Are you certain that everyone consented? And what is "consent" in the context of a business where the implication is that you take abuse and exploitation as "paying your dues" if you want to get paid/secure your spot/move up the roster/get out in one piece? There are alternatives to what happened in that incident. That the promoter chose not to use them indicates to me that they don't care about the business or the people who work in it. It might suck for you and for some others, but it's a discussion that I think is worth having. It's something we as wrestling fans collectively we would do well to hash out.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 5, 2015 12:35:34 GMT -5
If you don't like it don't watch it. Everyone who participated consented. This thread sucks. Then why are you posting in it? Contribute something or leave it alone, only warning.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Mar 5, 2015 12:41:34 GMT -5
I'm going to have to insist you go back and actually read the thread. Countless posters have been saying "This would be disgusting regardless of gender", one poster even put up the board's collective reaction to the Rob Terry/Homicide unprotected chair shot incident, and many posters in this thread have been discussing how it's not "sexism" to feel disgust or at least unease when male-on-female violence is used in an exploitative manner. Plus, there is the simple physiological reality: men, for the most part, simply are physically larger and often stronger than women (with some definite exceptions, certainly), and that played into what's wrong with this angle; it is not, and has never been, sexism to point out that there's a physical difference between the sexes, and while that shouldn't preclude inter-gender matches from happening, it IS a factor to consider when you're booking a match like this and the woman involved is not, say, Amazing/Awesome Kong. And that alone is proof of the other problem with this- the fact of the matter is- the actual act of unprotected chair shots and the unprotected move IS the most disgusting part of this whole issue- even before you take the gender aspect into play. Just saying a line like "well, it'd be okay if the woman was the size of Amazing/Awesome Kong" is just as evil as anything the people supporting this angle has said- because it's inherently saying "well, it's okay if they're bigger than them." NO. NO IT'S NOT. It doesn't matter what size the two people are- it doesn't matter if it was the Big Show on one side and El Torito on the other one doing it- UNPROTECTED! CHAIR! SHOTS! ARE! NOT! COOL! AND! NEVER! WILL! BE! AGAIN!
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Jazzman
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Post by Jazzman on Mar 5, 2015 12:42:10 GMT -5
I'm just stepping in here to say right now that Beyond Wrestling has stated that if you order this show before 2pm tomorrow, all the proceeds are going to CTE research. I'm not sure how to feel about it but at least they are trying to do something good with this, even if all the steps before this have been frighteningly tone deaf.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 12:43:00 GMT -5
This thread started so well and then predictably fell apart.
That dude needs to go back to Powerbomb school because he violated rule #1 in wrestling and that's to protect your opponent.
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Post by froggyfrog on Mar 5, 2015 12:51:07 GMT -5
If you don't like it don't watch it. Everyone who participated consented. Are you certain that everyone consented? And what is "consent" in the context of a business where the implication is that you take abuse and exploitation as "paying your dues" if you want to get paid/secure your spot/move up the roster/get out in one piece? Consent in that this was planned and all parties agreed to participate as such. I don't see how "paying your dues" has anything to do with it unless you're trying to insinuate that the promoter and/or Dickinson conspired to maliciously harm Kimber without her consent. Which I think is unfounded.
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