Facetious
King Koopa
ADAM COLE BAYBAY
Posts: 11,694
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Post by Facetious on Mar 5, 2015 12:58:03 GMT -5
Was Dickinson supposed to be a face here? Everybody doesn't need to be Ricky Steamboat, but when I argue for kinder good guys in wrestling this (and by extension, #ItHappens) is the kind of shit I'm talking about. That was like everything wrong with indie wrestling, wrapped up into one sad and neckbeardy package. Absolutely not. Here is some insight (and defending) of the story.
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Post by Zombie Mod on Mar 5, 2015 13:19:03 GMT -5
that's not a jackknife powerbomb, unless kevin nash was doing it wrong all those years
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 5, 2015 13:31:36 GMT -5
I'm going to have to insist you go back and actually read the thread. Countless posters have been saying "This would be disgusting regardless of gender", one poster even put up the board's collective reaction to the Rob Terry/Homicide unprotected chair shot incident, and many posters in this thread have been discussing how it's not "sexism" to feel disgust or at least unease when male-on-female violence is used in an exploitative manner. Plus, there is the simple physiological reality: men, for the most part, simply are physically larger and often stronger than women (with some definite exceptions, certainly), and that played into what's wrong with this angle; it is not, and has never been, sexism to point out that there's a physical difference between the sexes, and while that shouldn't preclude inter-gender matches from happening, it IS a factor to consider when you're booking a match like this and the woman involved is not, say, Amazing/Awesome Kong. And that alone is proof of the other problem with this- the fact of the matter is- the actual act of unprotected chair shots and the unprotected move IS the most disgusting part of this whole issue- even before you take the gender aspect into play. Just saying a line like "well, it'd be okay if the woman was the size of Amazing/Awesome Kong" is just as evil as anything the people supporting this angle has said- because it's inherently saying "well, it's okay if they're bigger than them." NO. NO IT'S NOT. It doesn't matter what size the two people are- it doesn't matter if it was the Big Show on one side and El Torito on the other one doing it- UNPROTECTED! CHAIR! SHOTS! ARE! NOT! COOL! AND! NEVER! WILL! BE! AGAIN! Dude, relax. Literally everybody in the thread has been 100% on board with the notion that unprotected chair shots aren't a good thing, no matter who's involved. I never said it'd be ok to use unprotected chair shots or abuse your opponent if the woman involved was Kong's size. I'm making the point that when you have a physical difference of 100+ pounds between opponents, it's something you must take into consideration in your booking and presentation. Take somebody like Kong, or another woman who's stronger/bigger/whatever, book a match that looks (but isn't actually, because, y'know, fake sport and all) brutal, and it doesn't take on the same exploitative qualities. Taking a much bigger man and putting him in a position to brutalize a woman for the clear enjoyment of the crowd (yes, Dickinson is a heel, but there's no way they booked this without thinking the crowd would cheer) is problematic. It's made far worse by the hideously unsafe and, frankly, stupid spots that were utilized to get that over. Both are valid reasons to look at this and say "this is completely screwed up and wrong".
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Post by arrx on Mar 5, 2015 15:32:13 GMT -5
As long as violence against anyone is still a cultural problem in the world (and it is), this sort of deliberate bloodlust from human-human violence is dangerous. A lot of the comments on the video are seriously damning. FTFY. In that case why watch wrestling at all?
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,725
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 5, 2015 16:26:42 GMT -5
Consent in that this was planned and all parties agreed to participate as such. I don't see how "paying your dues" has anything to do with it unless you're trying to insinuate that the promoter and/or Dickinson conspired to maliciously harm Kimber without her consent. Which I think is unfounded. I consider free consent to imply that there would be no negative consequences for either party if they were to refuse the booking as presented to them. What happened went far beyond what any reasonable person would consider a wrestling match. There is a tacit pressure for wrestlers to do things they may not consent freely to doing because of possible consequences to their development as talent and to their careers if they refuse. This pressure exists _everywhere_, from WWE on down. Any exertion of this pressure in order for a wrestler to perform a feat likely to cause them bodily harm, in my view, can have serious legal ramifications for anyone who exerts it. I'm not a lawyer, but in many jurisdictions it is legally impossible for anyone to give free and informed consent to activity which is reasonably likely to cause that person harm. That consent, no matter how strongly it's expressed, simply would not legally valid. In some cases, that consent can be used as evidence that a person is a danger to themselves or others. Don't dismiss this completely - it has only ever been on an honor system that promoters have relied on their talents to act against what the law would determine to be their own best interests. Any contracts with "independent contractors" in which unreasonable and unnecessary risk of harm was either an express or implied requirement for employment would theoreticaly be null and void. I might be wearing a tinfoil hat about this, but I think that it's only because so few people know fully what could happen here that the situation among promoters and wrestlers has been allowed to continue for so long.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 5, 2015 16:40:48 GMT -5
As long as violence against anyone is still a cultural problem in the world (and it is), this sort of deliberate bloodlust from human-human violence is dangerous. A lot of the comments on the video are seriously damning. FTFY. In that case why watch wrestling at all? Please don't "FT", please; violence is obviously a problem for everybody, but specifically man-on-woman violence is a major, major problem with its own unique set of circumstances and factors. Even if it isn't your intention, doing something like that comes off as minimizing it. As for "then why watch wrestling", the point is to buy into and suspend disbelief for the story being told in the ring, not to get all hyped up because they're committing literal, borderline shoot violence against one another, gender be damned. As said countless times throughout this thread, the way this was done makes it clear they were feeding into the crowd's bloodlust for male-on-female violence, which is problematic, and their bloodlust for wrestlers shoot endangering one another (not to be confused with working stiff), which is also problematic.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Mar 5, 2015 17:11:00 GMT -5
It's just basic stupidity, especially for the woman to allow full-on chairshots to her head. That's kind of how I feel. I would like to hear what she thinks. Maybe she was totally fine with it. Maybe she even encouraged him. I mean, it did look bad but it's not like, say the Mike Levy incident. Or any of New Jack's many incidents. And yea, there was plenty of outrage for those incidents too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 17:32:42 GMT -5
As long as violence against anyone is still a cultural problem in the world (and it is), this sort of deliberate bloodlust from human-human violence is dangerous. A lot of the comments on the video are seriously damning. FTFY. In that case why watch wrestling at all? Not even a good point, because to make it you have to pretend that mainstream pro wrestling and garbage wrestling are the same form of entertainment when they're not. Mainstream pro wrestling is a theatrical portrayal right down to the violence, which is an illusion performed in a controlled environment by stunt men/women who know how to perform with minimal risk to their own safety. That's the way fans of mainstream pro wrestling want it to be. There is no more bloodlust involved in being a fan of pro wrestling than there is in being a fan of Power Rangers. The people who get off on unprotected chair shots and workers putting themselves at high risk of serious injury or even death are in a completely different category, as is the form of entertainment they call "wrestling". That's where your bloodlust and love of violence comes into play.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,306
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Post by Woo on Mar 5, 2015 18:38:41 GMT -5
This is such a stupid spot. Kimber Lee is/was most likely going to be winning the Shimmer Tag Team Championship in a few weeks. Why risk that with a stupid angle and possible concussion?
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Mar 5, 2015 20:04:45 GMT -5
This is such a stupid spot. Kimber Lee is/was most likely going to be winning the Shimmer Tag Team Championship in a few weeks. Why risk that with a stupid angle and possible concussion? So? I'm trying to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound like I'm condoning what happened, because I'm not. But Shimmer Tag Team Champion is hardly something to hang a career on. Shimmer doesn't tour and has a taping schedule that TNA would laugh at. I doubt those tapings are big money pay days either. She has to make a living and sadly "girl who takes insane unprotected head shots" is probably gonna get her more bookings then one half of the Shimmer Tag Team Champions.
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Post by Adam Black on Mar 6, 2015 0:39:54 GMT -5
Tamer than I expected but still brutal as f*** what the f*** were they thinking?
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Emmet Russell
King Koopa
Quieter
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Post by Emmet Russell on Mar 6, 2015 2:27:39 GMT -5
Now, let me say something else about this: a lot of the time in indy wrestling, your goal is to make it big and eventually get seen by the WWE, it's not always the case and I don't know the motivations of both Kimber Lee and Dickinson, but I would assume they want to make it to the WWE one day, but I don't think these two are very bright judging by the fact they did this.
Now, if I was the WWE, and I heard about this and then proceeding to watch it, I would keep as far away from both of these two as possible. Why would I want to hire two people stupid enough to do a spot like this? especially when my company has moved far away from that kind of stuff, something indy wrestling should really learn from.
They not only risked serious injury, they risked their future money-making potential by doing it. A bunch of fools.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 6, 2015 8:45:58 GMT -5
Now, let me say something else about this: a lot of the time in indy wrestling, your goal is to make it big and eventually get seen by the WWE, it's not always the case and I don't know the motivations of both Kimber Lee and Dickinson, but I would assume they want to make it to the WWE one day, but I don't think these two are very bright judging by the fact they did this. Now, if I was the WWE, and I heard about this and then proceeding to watch it, I would keep as far away from both of these two as possible. Why would I want to hire two people stupid enough to do a spot like this? especially when my company has moved far away from that kind of stuff, something indy wrestling should really learn from. They not only risked serious injury, they risked their future money-making potential by doing it. A bunch of fools. I can tell you this about both Kimber and Dickenson; they both have a bit of a track record of making bad business decisions. Difference is Kimber is actually a really nice person while Dickenson is a bit of a dick.
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Post by arrx on Mar 6, 2015 10:02:47 GMT -5
FTFY. In that case why watch wrestling at all? Not even a good point, because to make it you have to pretend that mainstream pro wrestling and garbage wrestling are the same form of entertainment when they're not. Mainstream pro wrestling is a theatrical portrayal right down to the violence, which is an illusion performed in a controlled environment by stunt men/women who know how to perform with minimal risk to their own safety. That's the way fans of mainstream pro wrestling want it to be. There is no more bloodlust involved in being a fan of pro wrestling than there is in being a fan of Power Rangers. The people who get off on unprotected chair shots and workers putting themselves at high risk of serious injury or even death are in a completely different category, as is the form of entertainment they call "wrestling". That's where your bloodlust and love of violence comes into play. You call it garbage wrestling and some would call what you label "Pro" wrestling as garbage. I hate when people use the term garbage wrestling like they are the judge and king of what real and true wrestling is. Bloodlust is very much a part of pro wrestling, and its been that way since wrestling got popular in the 50s at least. You would not have fans from that day and age trying to beat up, injure and kill heels if there was no bloodlust in mainstream wrestling. If not for bloodlust in wrestling a match would look close a Amateur wrestling match without heroes, villains and gimmicks. Trying to say bloodlust has no place or is not a part of mainstream wrestling is ignoring history.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Mar 6, 2015 10:04:28 GMT -5
Not even a good point, because to make it you have to pretend that mainstream pro wrestling and garbage wrestling are the same form of entertainment when they're not. Mainstream pro wrestling is a theatrical portrayal right down to the violence, which is an illusion performed in a controlled environment by stunt men/women who know how to perform with minimal risk to their own safety. That's the way fans of mainstream pro wrestling want it to be. There is no more bloodlust involved in being a fan of pro wrestling than there is in being a fan of Power Rangers. The people who get off on unprotected chair shots and workers putting themselves at high risk of serious injury or even death are in a completely different category, as is the form of entertainment they call "wrestling". That's where your bloodlust and love of violence comes into play. You call it garbage wrestling and some would call what you label "Pro" wrestling as garbage. I hate when people use the term garbage wrestling like they are the judge and king of what real and true wrestling is. Bloodlust is very much a part of pro wrestling, and its been that way since wrestling got popular in the 50s at least. You would not have fans from that day and age trying to beat up, injure and kill heels if there was no bloodlust in mainstream wrestling. If not for bloodlust in wrestling a match would look close a Amateur wrestling match without heroes, villains and gimmicks. Trying to say bloodlust has no place or is not a part of mainstream wrestling is ignoring history. Just because things used to be done and used to be accepted doesn't mean they should be accepted now. People object to this because of medical evidence of what this sort of brutality does to the people involved. It doesn't need to be this way when it's fake. It's fake.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 10:39:06 GMT -5
Not even a good point, because to make it you have to pretend that mainstream pro wrestling and garbage wrestling are the same form of entertainment when they're not. Mainstream pro wrestling is a theatrical portrayal right down to the violence, which is an illusion performed in a controlled environment by stunt men/women who know how to perform with minimal risk to their own safety. That's the way fans of mainstream pro wrestling want it to be. There is no more bloodlust involved in being a fan of pro wrestling than there is in being a fan of Power Rangers. The people who get off on unprotected chair shots and workers putting themselves at high risk of serious injury or even death are in a completely different category, as is the form of entertainment they call "wrestling". That's where your bloodlust and love of violence comes into play. You call it garbage wrestling and some would call what you label "Pro" wrestling as garbage. I hate when people use the term garbage wrestling like they are the judge and king of what real and true wrestling is. Bloodlust is very much a part of pro wrestling, and its been that way since wrestling got popular in the 50s at least. You would not have fans from that day and age trying to beat up, injure and kill heels if there was no bloodlust in mainstream wrestling. If not for bloodlust in wrestling a match would look close a Amateur wrestling match without heroes, villains and gimmicks. Trying to say bloodlust has no place or is not a part of mainstream wrestling is ignoring history. Semantics aside, you know very well the distinction I'm making. Call it garbage, hardcore, whatever... Yes, bloodlust has always been among pro wrestling fans, but do you think the people who want to injure and kill a heel wrestler is/has ever been the norm? Just because some fans have shown sociopathic tendencies does not mean that mainstream pro wrestling, in any era, has catered to or cultivated that type of individual. Even when blading was popular, it was done to horrify and underscore the seriousness of a rivalry. It was not done so that bloodthirsty fans would giggle and chant, "He's hardcore!" Even that pretty much died out after everyone got smart about HIV/AIDS. Now that we're getting smart about concussions, unprotected chair shots and other dangerous maneuvers are dying out in mainstream wrestling as well, and that is exactly how MOST fans want it because we don't really want to see any of those guys/girls get hurt.
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DjZonk
Don Corleone
Where's my cat?
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Post by DjZonk on Mar 6, 2015 10:49:39 GMT -5
WTF did I just watch!?
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on Mar 6, 2015 13:24:40 GMT -5
This is such a stupid spot. Kimber Lee is/was most likely going to be winning the Shimmer Tag Team Championship in a few weeks. Why risk that with a stupid angle and possible concussion? So? I'm trying to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound like I'm condoning what happened, because I'm not. But Shimmer Tag Team Champion is hardly something to hang a career on. Shimmer doesn't tour and has a taping schedule that TNA would laugh at. I doubt those tapings are big money pay days either. She has to make a living and sadly "girl who takes insane unprotected head shots" is probably gonna get her more bookings then one half of the Shimmer Tag Team Champions. Well there are 5 Shimmer shows coming up. She'd earn more from the 5 DVD tapings than this one taping I'd reckon. It also would screw over Cherry Bomb if she didn't make it and maybe annoy Dave Prazak too. Shimmer also has an international followng and an i-PPV coming up. It was just stupid.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Mar 6, 2015 18:48:42 GMT -5
You call it garbage wrestling and some would call what you label "Pro" wrestling as garbage. I hate when people use the term garbage wrestling like they are the judge and king of what real and true wrestling is. Garbage wrestling, in my opinion, is when people in the ring do things that require little to no skill and has a very large chance that it can permanently injure the wrestler in the ring and is done primarily for shock value. Considering what happened at the show covered all of those bases I am very comfortable calling it garbage wrestling. I won't deny that neither will anyone else on here. I was a huge fan of hardcore and deathmatch wrestling at one time. I don't enjoy watching that stuff now because I would like these guys to have a good life post-wrestling without crippling medical problems. With what we know about concussions and brain injuries there is simply no place in wrestling for what transpired at that show. The business and many of its fans have changed and evolved throughout the decades mostly for the better. I would like to think that people are pushing for a safe environment where we can see wrestlers living a comfortable life in their old age. It is sad to read the struggles that many older wrestlers have due to these actions that were once consider part of wrestling. The industry of professional wrestling will be much better off once these types of things are totally eradicated and the business shows it actually gives a damn about the well-being of wrestlers.
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Post by Chip Chipperson on Mar 6, 2015 22:03:01 GMT -5
Not even a good point, because to make it you have to pretend that mainstream pro wrestling and garbage wrestling are the same form of entertainment when they're not. Mainstream pro wrestling is a theatrical portrayal right down to the violence, which is an illusion performed in a controlled environment by stunt men/women who know how to perform with minimal risk to their own safety. That's the way fans of mainstream pro wrestling want it to be. There is no more bloodlust involved in being a fan of pro wrestling than there is in being a fan of Power Rangers. The people who get off on unprotected chair shots and workers putting themselves at high risk of serious injury or even death are in a completely different category, as is the form of entertainment they call "wrestling". That's where your bloodlust and love of violence comes into play. You call it garbage wrestling and some would call what you label "Pro" wrestling as garbage. I hate when people use the term garbage wrestling like they are the judge and king of what real and true wrestling is. Bloodlust is very much a part of pro wrestling, and its been that way since wrestling got popular in the 50s at least. You would not have fans from that day and age trying to beat up, injure and kill heels if there was no bloodlust in mainstream wrestling. If not for bloodlust in wrestling a match would look close a Amateur wrestling match without heroes, villains and gimmicks. Trying to say bloodlust has no place or is not a part of mainstream wrestling is ignoring history. "Garbage Wrestling" is the official term used for promotions such as CZW (Early days, not so much now), IWA-MS and others to describe a hardcore wrestling promotion who does hardcore matches frequently for no reason except because the talent can't do anything else. Some notable garbage wrestlers are guys like Ian Rotten, Mad Man Pondo, The Sandman, Mitch Page and a lot of the IWA-MS talents. "Hardcore Wrestling" is very similar but is used for promotions such as CZW (Current day), ECW, FMW and others who have strong undercards and build to hardcore matches with story lines. Most of their hardcore guys can work a great regular match. Some notable hardcore wrestlers are guys such as Raven, Sabu and Terry Funk (Later years) Those are the differences. It's not some internet wrestling smart mark judgment thing it's basically an official label to title hardcore wrestling companies. All hardcore companies fit under one of the two labels. Hardcore is viewed as the better of the two in the eyes of the wrestling community but garbage wrestling companies have loyal fans also.
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