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Post by Kay Faban on Jul 2, 2015 9:44:33 GMT -5
This has been the style of a lot of "good" Indy wrestling the past decade. He just wanted to impress the people who said he sucked.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 2, 2015 9:47:47 GMT -5
A big issue is how over the years WWE has trained audiences to only react to certain things, namely the opening riff of somebody's theme song, their catchphrase, and their finisher. They've also spent years making it clear that big matches absolutely cannot end with only one finisher, which is not something unique to WWE, but a "Wrestlemania main event" style match tends to revolve around "hit finishers at all costs". Cena does that style very well, but, for me, it's just not a particularly entertaining style. Pretty much. Like I said, lord knows Cena isn't the only one working that style. It's a company-wide thing, that's just...how people wrestle at this level in WWE now. I think what gets me is, you CAN do this sort of match style and not have it be so predictable. Just have moves other than finishers be...finishes. Hey, Cena busted out a Yoshi Tonic? Cool! ...Why didn't that end the match? That's move porn. There's no other way to describe it. All these cool, innovative moves but none of the shit matters because guys don't get beat by them or even sell them all that well. It's just another move in a match. That's such a waste to me.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jul 2, 2015 10:05:38 GMT -5
A big issue is how over the years WWE has trained audiences to only react to certain things, namely the opening riff of somebody's theme song, their catchphrase, and their finisher. They've also spent years making it clear that big matches absolutely cannot end with only one finisher, which is not something unique to WWE, but a "Wrestlemania main event" style match tends to revolve around "hit finishers at all costs". Cena does that style very well, but, for me, it's just not a particularly entertaining style. Pretty much. Like I said, lord knows Cena isn't the only one working that style. It's a company-wide thing, that's just...how people wrestle at this level in WWE now. I think what gets me is, you CAN do this sort of match style and not have it be so predictable. Just have moves other than finishers be...finishes. Hey, Cena busted out a Yoshi Tonic? Cool! ...Why didn't that end the match? That's move porn. There's no other way to describe it. All these cool, innovative moves but none of the shit matters because guys don't get beat by them or even sell them all that well. It's just another move in a match. That's such a waste to me. Another thing they've also trained fans to believe is that guys who get beaten by a move that isn't an established finisher are sub-local jobber losers that may as well quit the company as soon as they get behind the curtain. That may have been over-dramatised for emphasis, but you get the point.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 2, 2015 10:07:18 GMT -5
Where on earth is this idea coming from that Cena's recent matches have no psychology? The psychology IS based around the big moves, and you may not like that style of match, but Cena for one does a really good job of making it seem like he really believes each move might get the win, even though it never does (I love how he's started fighting with the ref). Most NXT main event matches for like a year have had the same basic psychology, which is part of why Cena has such awesome matches with NXT guys. Bugs me that people use that criticism about something like the springboard stunner, which couldn't make more sense from a psychology standpoint: he always catches his opponents off guard with it. But what is the over arching story? He HASNT beaten anyone with any of these big moves. And besides, if Cena has to pull out all the stops to beat these midcarders whom he used to dominate, the story shouldn't be "Cena is the best in the world". It should be "What is wrong with John Cena? Why isn't he effective anymore?". Imagine if next season, the New England Patriots start beating teams like the Jets, Bills, Jaguars, and other bottom feeders every week 35-34, but are having to resort to trick plays and 4th down gambles to do it. The story isn't "How versatile are the Patriots!?" Or "Man these 2-7 Jets are actually really good!" The story is "What the f*** happened to New England!? Why do the suck now!?" This appears to me to be Cena trying to have the best match each week to protect his spot so he resorts to a flashy, meaningless style that his biggest critics like. I'm sure he also thinks this style will some how elevate some other guys. But more troubling, this shows me that the whole business wIll soon be bad TNA Kurt Angle matches instead of good stories. The MOVEZ aren't important and aren't what makes a great match. Its a great story, characters that matter, and a sense that there are high, long lasting stakes. To use one final sports analogy, no football fan in history has watched a great Super Bowl and thought it wasn't good because there weren't enough long pass completetions.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 2, 2015 10:15:10 GMT -5
Pretty much. Like I said, lord knows Cena isn't the only one working that style. It's a company-wide thing, that's just...how people wrestle at this level in WWE now. I think what gets me is, you CAN do this sort of match style and not have it be so predictable. Just have moves other than finishers be...finishes. Hey, Cena busted out a Yoshi Tonic? Cool! ...Why didn't that end the match? That's move porn. There's no other way to describe it. All these cool, innovative moves but none of the shit matters because guys don't get beat by them or even sell them all that well. It's just another move in a match. That's such a waste to me. Another thing they've also trained fans to believe is that guys who get beaten by a move that isn't an established finisher are sub-local jobber losers that may as well quit the company as soon as they get behind the curtain. That may have been over-dramatised for emphasis, but you get the point. I understand that but there's also a limit to that. Some moves are just gonna LOOK like believable finishes, no matter what your status on the card actually is. It's not like it's a DDT, it's a freaking Yoshi Tonic (when was the last time someone even did that on the main roster before Cena?) by a 250 lb man. Finishes don't get much more believable than that, lol. On a different note, I just googled John Cena to find out his billed weight and the very first thing that pops up in the google search is "Where in the World is John Cena's penis?" Thankfully, it's just an article about that movie he's in with Amy Schumer but I was so confused when I saw that at first.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 10:23:44 GMT -5
The story of these matches is incredibly obvious to grasp. Cena is being pushed to his limits, causing him as the long-time veteran to expand his arsenal and even have to hammer his finishers more than once. Yeah, and that story has so little depth, and only comes into play at the end of a match. I'm not saying no psychology, I'm saying the psychology is shallow and takes for granted the fact that people can't invest in anything that isn't overtly exciting.
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ededdneddy
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Post by ededdneddy on Jul 2, 2015 11:40:38 GMT -5
Cena should have been doing more creative moves many years ago. Don't just copy what looks like you could do and will get people talking because in all honesty you come off as trying WAY to hard and its just way too late in your career for this to happen. Maybe if it was some years ago and he actually tried to change up his moveset instead of years of "same old shit" then i might have been "okay at least he is trying" but now its just a bit too late for all of that.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 2, 2015 12:08:09 GMT -5
But what is the over arching story? He HASNT beaten anyone with any of these big moves. And besides, if Cena has to pull out all the stops to beat these midcarders whom he used to dominate, the story shouldn't be "Cena is the best in the world". It should be "What is wrong with John Cena? Why isn't he effective anymore?". Imagine if next season, the New England Patriots start beating teams like the Jets, Bills, Jaguars, and other bottom feeders every week 35-34, but are having to resort to trick plays and 4th down gambles to do it. The story isn't "How versatile are the Patriots!?" Or "Man these 2-7 Jets are actually really good!" The story is "What the f*** happened to New England!? Why do the suck now!?" This appears to me to be Cena trying to have the best match each week to protect his spot so he resorts to a flashy, meaningless style that his biggest critics like. I'm sure he also thinks this style will some how elevate some other guys. But more troubling, this shows me that the whole business wIll soon be bad TNA Kurt Angle matches instead of good stories. The MOVEZ aren't important and aren't what makes a great match. Its a great story, characters that matter, and a sense that there are high, long lasting stakes. To use one final sports analogy, no football fan in history has watched a great Super Bowl and thought it wasn't good because there weren't enough long pass completetions. First of all, I have no idea why people are attributing absolutely the worst possible motives to the performer himself: "Oh, he just wants to impress people and protect his spot!" There's another way of saying that, and it's wanting to put on exciting matches that entertain people. If he's not succeeding with you, fine, but he's not a jerk for doing it. It's also weird because the line of thinking people are bringing to bear here should destroy their enjoyment of all the wrestling that's been done for the past decade anywhere. In the 90s, people kept saying "Why doesn't Shawn Michaels just do the superkick one second into the match?" and they were right. All wrestling is pointless if it's not a finisher; we know. Why is it a bigger problem if it's big-move-style than if it's anything else? The thing is, you're setting two things in opposition that aren't. I like Cena's matches (and, likewise, NXT's recent main event style) BECAUSE I buy into the psychology. It's not Shakespeare, but if you saw absolutely no story to Cena's matches with Owens... not even to mention his matches with Zayn or Cesaro... then I don't understand that.
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Post by Macho Pichu on Jul 2, 2015 13:34:45 GMT -5
The moment someone goes out there and doesnt do those big spots, people are going to start chanting "boring" or "Randy Savage". I actually don't mind These recent matches Cena has been having. I just wish that they'd let more guys all around answer the open challenge. If someone like Adam Rose or Fandango had these same "finisher fest" matches with Cena, it could help change the fans' perception of them for the better. In theory, it should. However, they wouldn't be completely out of the water yet just because they were competitive with Cena. Taka Michonoku didn't suddenly become a main eventer just because he had a competitive match with Triple H.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 2, 2015 13:37:55 GMT -5
The moment someone goes out there and doesnt do those big spots, people are going to start chanting "boring" or "Randy Savage". I actually don't mind These recent matches Cena has been having. I just wish that they'd let more guys all around answer the open challenge. If someone like Adam Rose or Fandango had these same "finisher fest" matches with Cena, it could help change the fans' perception of them for the better. In theory, it should. However, they wouldn't be completely out of the water yet just because they were competitive with Cena. Taka Michonoku didn't suddenly become a main eventer just because he had a competitive match with Triple H. I always love when people drag "TAKA vs. HHH" out, like Taka wasn't right back to jobbing on Heat the next week after this.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 2, 2015 13:44:28 GMT -5
The moment someone goes out there and doesnt do those big spots, people are going to start chanting "boring" or "Randy Savage". I actually don't mind These recent matches Cena has been having. I just wish that they'd let more guys all around answer the open challenge. If someone like Adam Rose or Fandango had these same "finisher fest" matches with Cena, it could help change the fans' perception of them for the better. In theory, it should. However, they wouldn't be completely out of the water yet just because they were competitive with Cena. Taka Michonoku didn't suddenly become a main eventer just because he had a competitive match with Triple H. It's not so much about making them a main eventer so much as it is about giving them a little bit of credibility. You pit two guys like Heath Slater and Zack Ryder and against each other and people will mock, pity or complain about the loser losing to the winner (see the recent Swagger/Barrett matches) even though "someone has to lose" because the loser just looks like a jobber to jobbers. But you use Cena (or some other upper card guy) to give everyone a slight bit of a rub to make them more credible so that there is no shame in losing to any of them.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 2, 2015 13:59:48 GMT -5
First of all, I have no idea why people are attributing absolutely the worst possible motives to the performer himself: "Oh, he just wants to impress people and protect his spot!" There's another way of saying that, and it's wanting to put on exciting matches that entertain people. If he's not succeeding with you, fine, but he's not a jerk for doing it. I find it hard to believe it was just coincidence that John Cena started having weekly Wrestlemania main event style matches when he was put in the midcard. I'm not even saying he's wrong or a bad guy for doing that (or even that it's his call), but this style of match every week seems to be there to protect John Cena as a top act while he's in the midcard. But either way, my critisim of these matches goes beyond Cena. If you want a real culprit, it's probably the Undertaker. He's the one who really got over this match style about 7-10 years ago when every one of his Mania matches took on this format and he made practically his entire moveset finishers. It's also weird because the line of thinking people are bringing to bear here should destroy their enjoyment of all the wrestling that's been done for the past decade anywhere. In the 90s, people kept saying "Why doesn't Shawn Michaels just do the superkick one second into the match?" and they were right. All wrestling is pointless if it's not a finisher; we know. Why is it a bigger problem if it's big-move-style than if it's anything else? Your last point is my main problem. All wrestling SHOULD NOT be pointless if it's not a finisher. All of my criticisms would be invalid if he won just one of these matches without an AA or STF. Make these new moves mean something. Otherwise it's just filler and I'm sitting there numb waiting for the AA or the opponent's finisher. How anyone could bite on these nearfalls is beyond me because they never ever lead to a win. After a while, it all becomes meaningless. If you want to break out a brainbuster or some famous move that no one in WWE uses, beat someone with it. It would make the match more memorable and would help EVERYONE on the roster, because it would start conditioning the fans that matches can be won without a finisher. Although that touches on a larger point - how much more entertaining would it be if guys all had finishers as automatic killshots but they were constantly winning matches with other stuff? (And I mean other than with distracted roll ups) It would make the matches so much more interesting the whole way through. Using an example from the past, the Torture Rack was Luger's killshot, but he could beat you with a flying forearm or a powerslam or even a clothesline if he caught you off guard. Going back to you Shawn Michaels example, the question you asked wasn't as relevant because guys more often won without their finisher, or the match would end in a countout or DQ, or outside interference. Heck a clean finish of any kind in a match involving two stars was rare enough that you were just excited that the match ended decisively at all. There was more variety. Plus finishers were more interesting, because you didn't see them that much. Often, you never saw the loser's finisher, because finishers, you know, finished matches. The thing is, you're setting two things in opposition that aren't. I like Cena's matches (and, likewise, NXT's recent main event style) BECAUSE I buy into the psychology. It's not Shakespeare, but if you saw absolutely no story to Cena's matches with Owens... not even to mention his matches with Zayn or Cesaro... then I don't understand that. I'm certainly not saying why you shouldn't like them, I'm trying to explain why they don't make sense to me and why I think the story is bad. For me, when you have matches like these every week, the story has to go beyond that one match. When he had a match just like the US Title Open Challenge against CM Punk in 2013, it was a one off match where the story was "Both of these guys are great and they really want to go to Wrestlemania". Same would have been true if he would have had just the Owens match or just the Cesaro match. But when you have them every single week against half the roster, the story has to go beyond "These two guys are both tough". I can't just watch each of these matches in a vacuum. Once dozens of guys have been through nearly identical matches with Cena, it's just boring to me. And I can't even make a coherent story out of it. Everyone on the roster is equal and tough? That's not very interesting. Maybe you are seeing something I'm not.
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stealthamo
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Post by stealthamo on Jul 2, 2015 15:50:58 GMT -5
I'm just not a fan of the style. Lots of fancy moves but none of them matter because they never result in the finish. He's gonna kick out of a bunch of shit and then win with the exception of that first Owens match. He's relying on the big moves because he feels like he has to do it to keep up with the rest of the roster and stay relevant. It's the Micheal Bay style of wrestling. It's frustrating because he's better than that. He doesn't have to do this, he's John freaking Cena. He can control the crowd with ease but for some reason, he feels the need to kill himself. His matches are like bad ROH matches now. Yep, he's basically TNA Kurt Angle or Davey Richards now. Tons of high spots, false finishes, and no-selling. I remember when that style used to be mocked for being indy garbage (deservedly so). Now the top star in the industry is doing it. Not a good sign long-term. It's not like it's the first time Cena's done that though. I remember calling Cena/Rock 2 an ROH match as it was going on with so many finishers getting kicked out off. On the subject, I've been tired of Cena's US Title Challenge after the first couple of weeks, because of how repetitive they are. Goes back and forth for a while, Cena kicks out of the guy's finisher, half the time the opponent kicks out of the AA, Cena busts out weird new moves in his arsenal and eventually hits the AA again for the win. Don't worry though, because the opponent looks really good in defeat, and that's gotta mean something good for them down the line, right? It also doesn't help that Cena is doing these challenges while in feuds for the title itself. Like, I know Cena's gonna beat whoever he's facing during the challenge, because he has matches for the title at the next PPV against Rusev/Owens. The only time it gained a bit of excitement was the bit between the Rusev and Owens feud, because it seemed like the only time where his opponent had a legitimate chance to win the title.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 2, 2015 15:54:20 GMT -5
Yep, he's basically TNA Kurt Angle or Davey Richards now. Tons of high spots, false finishes, and no-selling. I remember when that style used to be mocked for being indy garbage (deservedly so). Now the top star in the industry is doing it. Not a good sign long-term. It's not like it's the first time Cena's done that though. I remember calling Cena/Rock 2 an ROH match as it was going on with so many finishers getting kicked out off. On the subject, I've been tired of Cena's US Title Challenge after the first couple of weeks, because of how repetitive they are. Goes back and forth for a while, Cena kicks out of the guy's finisher, half the time the opponent kicks out of the AA, Cena busts out weird new moves in his arsenal and eventually hits the AA again for the win. Don't worry though, because the opponent looks really good in defeat, and that's gotta mean something good for them down the line, right? It also doesn't help that Cena is doing these challenges while in feuds for the title itself. Like, I know Cena's gonna beat whoever he's facing during the challenge, because he has matches for the title at the next PPV against Rusev/Owens. The only time it gained a bit of excitement was the bit between the Rusev and Owens feud, because it seemed like the only time where his opponent had a legitimate chance to win the title. Honestly, I don't think the PPV feuds telegraphed the ending. I keep getting this nagging feeling that Cena might lose an open challenge match due to a heel's interference because someone in the office gets the idea that "this feud is too good for the U.S. title".
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Jul 2, 2015 16:12:12 GMT -5
The storyline is simple. Cena even says it the same way before every Open Challenge... "I'm the man to beat" if you 1) want to become a WWE US Champion, 2) to have the feather in your cap (like Owens) of saying 'I beat John "BigMatch" Cena' /JBL; 3) Is Cena's time up? Is someone else's time now to become the symbol of the WWE's newly branded Patriotic Stars and Stripes Strap?
Taking a time out for current events, the American flag certainly carries with it a lot of connotation and imagery. Rusev holding the title was putting it over in a way since he was undefeated for the entire run of his title reign (beating Cena once before his loss even), and now Cena has held onto it while facing stiff competition against hungry midcarders and new talent like Neville, Cesaro, and Owens.
While I would only like Owens as US Champ if he no longer holds the NXT title, he would sell the belt as a d-bag selfish American and inspire people like Zayn to come out and use the strap as a backdrop for thrilling feuds.
While I understand the criticism of the US Open Challenge bouts every week I have always seen any match where a WWE title is up for grabs as a 'free' main event if it's not on a ppv. Cena's close-fought-victories just reemphasize that, and in turn he's giving fans at live events and watching at home what they want to see-- an injection of gravitas on what ends up being usually a predictable RAW where nothing really happens in between PPV title changes.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 2, 2015 16:27:19 GMT -5
It's more that, Cena's a top act whether anyone likes it or not, and this is a very clever solution where he gets to be a big deal (because that's unavoidable) but not the focus of the main storylines. Dude's just trying to put on a good match. And again, it's not really fair to say he's having weekly Wrestlemania matches. It's more that he's having weekly NXT matches. And those work perfectly fine every week on NXT.
But again, that's a criticism that can be made about all the wrestling that's been done anywhere for years and years, so I don't really get why this particular match style makes it a bigger problem than any other. Sturcturing a match around big moves that don't matter is no worse than structuring a match around little moves that don't matter.
Yes, it is amazing and awesome to be telling the story that everyone on the roster is capable and tough and could beat one of the biggest stars they got. The way the WWE tiers their wrestlers has been a huge problem for a long time, and anything that evens the playing field is good.
Maybe I'm seeing it as more meta than you. The psychology I see is partly telling the story of how to get someone over in defeat, and Cena is doing an amazing job there... the acting of playing a tweener and getting mad at the ref, the selling, and yeah, the big moves all facilitate that. I definitely get the repetitiveness, but the Owens feud has changed that, I think. It's really hard for me to not see the storyline playing out in those matches. Owens is both mercenarily attacking a high-profile target to raise his own stature and is angry at Cena for disrespecting him. Cena is baited by Owens's jabs but also wiser and savvier than he looks. The matches play into that perfectly.
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Dean-o
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Post by Dean-o on Jul 2, 2015 16:35:23 GMT -5
It's just how most big feel WWE matches go these days. You're not seeing the ending until everybody has hit all their spots, signature moves, and maybe a couple finishers.
Unless of course it's the dreaded distration finish, usually caused by entrance music and a titantron.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 2, 2015 16:59:22 GMT -5
It's more that, Cena's a top act whether anyone likes it or not, and this is a very clever solution where he gets to be a big deal (because that's unavoidable) but not the focus of the main storylines. Dude's just trying to put on a good match. And again, it's not really fair to say he's having weekly Wrestlemania matches. It's more that he's having weekly NXT matches. And those work perfectly fine every week on NXT. But again, that's a criticism that can be made about all the wrestling that's been done anywhere for years and years, so I don't really get why this particular match style makes it a bigger problem than any other. Sturcturing a match around big moves that don't matter is no worse than structuring a match around little moves that don't matter. Yes, it is amazing and awesome to be telling the story that everyone on the roster is capable and tough and could beat one of the biggest stars they got. The way the WWE tiers their wrestlers has been a huge problem for a long time, and anything that evens the playing field is good. Maybe I'm seeing it as more meta than you. The psychology I see is partly telling the story of how to get someone over in defeat, and Cena is doing an amazing job there... the acting of playing a tweener and getting mad at the ref, the selling, and yeah, the big moves all facilitate that. I definitely get the repetitiveness, but the Owens feud has changed that, I think. It's really hard for me to not see the storyline playing out in those matches. Owens is both mercenarily attacking a high-profile target to raise his own stature and is angry at Cena for disrespecting him. Cena is baited by Owens's jabs but also wiser and savvier than he looks. The matches play into that perfectly. Well I better understand what you're seeing. I think you're right about the Cena/Owens story, but I actually think it would work much better with Cena being a little more dominant against everyone else and then having Owens be his equal. You're never gonna elevate the whole midcard with these matches. Why not make ONE megastar? Maybe that's the direction they're going. And you are right, much of my displeasure with the Cena Open Challenge is because it's the most prominent symptom of a company-wide problem with the "WWE Style". But there really aren't other threads talking about it. It's as big a problem for Neville or Barrett or Ambrose or anyone as it is for Cena. No one wins without their finishers, and many times, those aren't even good enough. To me, it makes most of each match feel like a complete waste of time. But don't let my criticisms ruin your enjoyment. It's just not for me.
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Post by hotshotalex on Jul 2, 2015 22:47:55 GMT -5
PWG style Cena is the most I've been entertained by him in years.
The Champ needs to get his shit in,
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Post by Bear Skin Rug on Jul 3, 2015 0:24:37 GMT -5
Michaels/Undertaker is the impetus for this*. Now everyone thinks a "big" match needs finisher kick-outs. All of Cena's matches are "big" so he includes them and it's more apparent than ever because he's wrestling on television more and in the supposed midcard where it is not making it easy for the Main Event when you're doing everything and still not getting a pin. I agree with the OP; it's not Cena bashing, just malaise with the current state of dramatic tension + psychology in wrestling and Cena's US open challenges represent this more than anything because they happen every week.
*I feel like before Michaels/Undertaker indy guys were more about just showing that they're actually hurting each other. THEN they started to do a million finishers. Indy wrestling also has the modern antithesis to this phenomenon: Bryan Danielson's ROH Title reign revolving around a small package that no one could break.
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