BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 17,012
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Post by BRV on Jul 19, 2015 22:06:21 GMT -5
For the sake of comparison, let's take a look at what's happening in the Divas division.
Nikki Bella has been running roughshod for a year or so, just stomping out all competition in her path. However, in the last week, the landscape has changed entirely, as three fresh faces from NXT - Becky Lynch, Charlotte, and Sasha Banks - have been introduced to the main roster as a new threat. Since arriving in WWE, the NXT trio have left Team Bella lying in the ring on Raw and have whomped Brie Bella in a triple threat match tonight. They look for all the world to be the dominant women who will carry the division into the future.
Now, imagine if for the next TWO MONTHS, Nikki Bella just totally destroyed and emasculated (efemulated?) Becky Lynch, Charlotte, and Sasha Banks at virtually every turn, pinning them clean at the next pay-per-view, then getting them to tap out in the middle of the ring at the following PPV. Wouldn't that just INFURIATE you? And wouldn't your fury be totally viable? Wouldn't you be enraged at the company for taking the future, making them look good for a brief, fleeting moment, then crushing them into a powder for the next 60 days in lieu of making the established superstar look weak?
That's what WWE has done. They took something that was a hugely important moment at the time - Kevin Owens pinning John Cena clean at Elimination Chamber - and in a matter of two months have rendered it positively irrelevant. It's a footnote in history, a sidebar on a decade-plus of dominance for John Cena. To put it bluntly, a fluke.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Jul 19, 2015 22:08:43 GMT -5
Cena's US Open has been a consistent RAW highlight for me, so I'm enthusiastic as to it continuing. Enjoyed the match, but consistent with Jason Powell of Prowrestling.Net's criticism, am now keen on them dialing back on the finisher-a-thon for a bit.
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8.2.11/SAVIOR_NEZ
Don Corleone
Michael Nesmith, inventor of all you hold dear!
Posts: 1,534
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Post by 8.2.11/SAVIOR_NEZ on Jul 19, 2015 22:09:59 GMT -5
I think I was more upset with the 19 near falls/submission breaks in the match before the finish than I was with Owens losing. With the match officially going 22:11, it's almost one near fall per minute. It is impossible for me to get into Cena's "big matches" because it's always the same formula these days. They will hit big moves that look awesome, but with no action to build them up instead of the tired "he's throwing everything at him" nonsense. Cena going over was stupid, but the structure of these matches is even worse.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Jul 19, 2015 22:11:56 GMT -5
I no longer want Cena to "make stars" anymore. I want Cena to keep the United States Championship, face mid to lower carders and never leave that area ever again. I don't want to John Cena vs Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Kevin Owens, Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Rusev, Dolph Ziggler.
John Cena, Randy Orton, Kane and Big Show should all just have a rotating five minute segment every week where Cena beats one of those three while I go pee.
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Post by mysterydriver on Jul 19, 2015 22:12:19 GMT -5
Hey, it was a hard fought loss...to John Cena.
Man, Owens looked so tough...in defeat.
I can't see how it doesn't help him down the line...
Hey, do you think he can do impersonations of famous wrestlers from the past? I bet he could do a good Hacksaw Jim Duggan...
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Post by lookout on Jul 19, 2015 22:12:40 GMT -5
as long as vince is in charge, the cena reign of terror is never going to end. vince is so obsessed with keeping cena strong that essentially nothing short of an act of god is going to stop cena from hurting and destroying every potential new superstar on the roster.
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Post by SenorCrest on Jul 19, 2015 22:15:12 GMT -5
So regarding the whole Cena merch thing I have a question, and I don't want to hog the main page with another thread so I'm gonna tack it in on here: A kid who was 10 in 2007 and a huge John Cena fan would be 18 now. Are those now 18 year old childhood Cena fans still Cena fans? Or did they just stop watching wrestling? Because at some point you (WWE) has to find a way to keep those kids and develop them into lifelong fans and have them go through the things lifetime wrestling fans go through (watching your favorite lose,watching him turn heel,shitty stretches of time,along with the good stuff that doesn't matter here) otherwise this short term panic model does no one any good because I don't know how many of the childhood Cena fans are sticking around and If they are and they are outgrowing that character there is no one who's an established face for them to identify with. I had Bret Hart when I outgrew Hulk Hogan as a fan. Bret Hart was very different than Hulk Hogan. Not counting NXT guys who do these kids have? Roman Reigns? Or more Cena? I was a huge HHH fan back in the old days but after a while I just stop caring for that character. I moved on to other guys. Theres always someone else on the roster that attracts my attention. Lesnar, New DAY, Owens, and Ambrose are my interests now.
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Post by lookout on Jul 19, 2015 22:16:44 GMT -5
I think I was more upset with the 19 near falls/submission breaks in the match before the finish than I was with Owens losing. With the match officially going 22:11, it's almost one near fall per minute. It is impossible for me to get into Cena's "big matches" because it's always the same formula these days. They will hit big moves that look awesome, but with no action to build them up instead of the tired "he's throwing everything at him" nonsense. Cena going over was stupid, but the structure of these matches is even worse. i feel like they really have reached a limit with the absurdly high impact moves not getting the pin on top of hitting every finisher every 2 minutes routine. In big matches it means something but when every single match features 5 or 6 finishing moves, on top of moves that should easily put someone away regardless, it doesn't mean anything anymore. I can't help but think of the ddt in this situation. They used to sell that move as death and now everyone uses it and no one ever wins with it. (minus dean ambrose i guess)...but the point is the move went from being something special to meaning nothing due to over use and its happening with all finishers at this point.
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Post by mysterydriver on Jul 19, 2015 22:16:47 GMT -5
For the sake of comparison, let's take a look at what's happening in the Divas division. Nikki Bella has been running roughshod for a year or so, just stomping out all competition in her path. However, in the last week, the landscape has changed entirely, as three fresh faces from NXT - Becky Lynch, Charlotte, and Sasha Banks - have been introduced to the main roster as a new threat. Since arriving in WWE, the NXT trio have left Team Bella lying in the ring on Raw and have whomped Brie Bella in a triple threat match tonight. They look for all the world to be the dominant women who will carry the division into the future. Now, imagine if for the next TWO MONTHS, Nikki Bella just totally destroyed and emasculated (efemulated?) Becky Lynch, Charlotte, and Sasha Banks at virtually every turn, pinning them clean at the next pay-per-view, then getting them to tap out in the middle of the ring at the following PPV. Wouldn't that just INFURIATE you? And wouldn't your fury be totally viable? Wouldn't you be enraged at the company for taking the future, making them look good for a brief, fleeting moment, then crushing them into a powder for the next 60 days in lieu of making the established superstar look weak? That's what WWE has done. They took something that was a hugely important moment at the time - Kevin Owens pinning John Cena clean at Elimination Chamber - and in a matter of two months have rendered it positively irrelevant. It's a footnote in history, a sidebar on a decade-plus of dominance for John Cena. To put it bluntly, a fluke. They literally gave him that 'talking point' they drop to try and tell everyone he's special. The way they drop Swagger as a Former World Champion (same they did with Ziggler) despite them losing constantly. As if this note should give credibility to the person who beats them. In other words, I'm waiting for: HAHA, MAGGLE, HE BEAT JOHN CENA IN HIS FIRST MATCH IN THE WWE! HE'S SURE SPECIAL! Yes, but can he beat former WWE champion Jack Swagger?! HAHA! WE THE PEOPLE VERSUS FIGHT OWEN FIGHT! HAHA I LOVE IT, MAGGLE!
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jul 19, 2015 22:17:16 GMT -5
I am not saying he's the sole problem, but the way he's booked is a major factor too. Hardcore fans and as you said new fans just don't have a reason to care anymore. I just have a problem equating the dudes who post "f*** CENA" and "f*** THIS COMPANY I'M DONE!" (continuously, meaning they were never 'done') with fans who actually stop watching. People grow out of it. They have kids and have less time for televised hobbies. I was the biggest fan in the world in my mind when I was 21, Punk's pipebomb spoke to me and plenty of other fans who felt the same way. And I'm 25 now with a job and more priorities, watching much less WWE than before. There's so many other things to do, and to watch. As we know, people's tastes change. A 3 hour show in an era where people barely have time for Netflix excursions will do that to you. John Cena has won and won and won since 2005. No way a win in 2015 is a fridge too far. The fans who complain the loudest are the ones who care the most and ones more likely to watch than those who stop watching. The ones who cease their WWE fandom are the ones you never hear from, because as I said before, they have better things to do than threaten others with the horrifying loss of their single USA Network view on a Monday night. And don't get me started on illegal streamers. The worst. I don't disagree with you at all. From my own personal experience in regards to your post. A while back I had a debate with an individual who complained about how bad the WWE is, how the booking is horrible, and how they've truly lost him as a fan but he continued to watch out of habit. I made suggestions to forms of entertainment that are more consistent, exciting, unique, and actually have a payoff in regards to the product itself. But she was so addicted and "trained" into accepting what the WWE put out that she couldn't stop watching. Me? I don't think I grew out of it, although, as a fan, I found myself becoming more disinterested and bored just because the product has become too safe, predictable, and just flat out boring as a whole in my opinion. I find more entertainment and excitement in watching Game of Thrones, House of Cards, Orange is The New Black, Power, NCIS, and Falling Skies. I just decided to stop complaining, change the channel, don't order the PPV's or subscribe to the Network, and find an alternative that's suitable for me.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 19, 2015 22:17:50 GMT -5
That match was wack as f***, I don't care what anyone says. Easily the worst they've had together. No real flow whatsoever, they just did MOVES~! while barely selling most of them. That was a bad ROH match. Really hope these two don't wrestle again just because I'm tired of these matches.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 22:17:43 GMT -5
Reposted from the PPV thread. I'm honestly not trying to be douchey but to people going "f*** THIS COMPANY!!!" because Cena won, you might as well stop watching WWE. I'm not saying that to be mean, I say it to help you out. Cena's on top. That's WWE's mission statement and it has been for years. Accept it or you are just gonna piss yourself off something fierce. Me? I'm just chillin' on this forum, havin' a couple of pints, and waiting for this all to blow over. At the Winchester?
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Jul 19, 2015 22:18:23 GMT -5
I feel bad for people who care about the product still and amusingly laugh at myself when wwe asks itself why ratings are slowing to a drizzle. So let me get this straight ... Raw's ratings are lower because Cena is winning? But they were higher when he was main eventing and champion? How does that make sense?
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Chiral
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 74,032
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Post by Chiral on Jul 19, 2015 22:20:41 GMT -5
I no longer want Cena to "make stars" anymore. I want Cena to keep the United States Championship, face mid to lower carders and never leave that area ever again. I don't want to John Cena vs Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Kevin Owens, Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Rusev, Dolph Ziggler. John Cena, Randy Orton, Kane and Big Show should all just have a rotating five minute segment every week where Cena beats one of those three while I go pee. I want this too. Cena to become the Harlem Globetrotters and Orton/Kane/Show will be the Washington Generals equivalent.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 22:21:37 GMT -5
That match was wack as f***, I don't care what anyone says. Easily the worst they've had together. No real flow whatsoever, they just did MOVES~! while barely selling most of them. That was a bad ROH match. Really hope these two don't wrestle again just because I'm tired of these matches. Cena isn't stopping anytime soon. This is the latest symptom of his crippling insecurity. He's got to be the gatekeeper who beats all the youngins in matches filled to the brim with spots devised for no other reason than to showcase his moveset. That's been his MO since his feud with Bray Wyatt. Kevin Owens wasn't the first person he did this with, and certainly won't be the last.
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Phil Parent
El Dandy
Your Favourite Teacher
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Phil Parent on Jul 19, 2015 22:22:30 GMT -5
If Cena was the heel, and the ratings were doing good, winning tonight (Not THAT way, but winning) would have made sense in an old-timey kind of way.
Back in the old days, heels would go over all the time, really. The Chase, they call it. Faces chase heels. The Chase draws fans who want to see the good guys beat the heel and the fans keep coming because the face lost but comes REAL CLOSE to winning so people think "NEXT TIME, my guy gets him". When you feel like you've drawn all you're gonna draw with that particular chase then you blow it off, face goes over, and goes on to his next chase while the heel gets to win a lot against the next face he'll eventually put over. People are satisfied, they got what they wanted. You had to have a nose for when the Chase should end because if you kept it going for too long people will just give up on the face ever beating the heel. Even moreso if the heel goes through MULTIPLE faces without ever losing; Think of how the Detroit/Toronto territory died really: LOLSHEIKWINS. The Tunneys brought in ANDRE from Montreal to face Sheik to pop their sagging attendances. And it worked, they sold out Maple Leaf Gardens. Then, Sheik fireballed and beat him and it killed the town, because if ANDRE can't beat The Sheik, nobody can, might as well stay home. Happens with faces too: UK died because Big Daddy & Giant Haystacks barely ever lost and had the same boring matches all the time.
Maybe it's true, heels and faces are a thing of the past and Owens is chasing Cena. Problem is, Owens acts like a bad person. If faces and heels are no more, then you can't have people acting overly badly. If Owens is to stay married to Cena (Which I expect him to be through SummerSlam.) then he has to go for the sack-of-shit heel heat tomorrow night: Rollins going "You should know me better, I'm gonna kill him anyway! type of deal. Maybe attack his manhood: Owens is man enough to be a father, Cena isn't. OR, they can just keep going for that ambivalent alignment he has by having a skit where he promises his kids he will beat Cena at SummerSlam or something.
I think WWE is in a situation where they have to beat and de-amphasize Cena. He is hurting their viewership. Maybe WWE has went from a gate business to a tv business to a merchandise business, but if nobody watches, how many shirts will they sell?
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metylerca
King Koopa
Loves Him Some Backstreet Boys.
Don't be alarmed.
Posts: 12,479
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Post by metylerca on Jul 19, 2015 22:25:28 GMT -5
I just have a problem equating the dudes who post "f*** CENA" and "f*** THIS COMPANY I'M DONE!" (continuously, meaning they were never 'done') with fans who actually stop watching. People grow out of it. They have kids and have less time for televised hobbies. I was the biggest fan in the world in my mind when I was 21, Punk's pipebomb spoke to me and plenty of other fans who felt the same way. And I'm 25 now with a job and more priorities, watching much less WWE than before. There's so many other things to do, and to watch. As we know, people's tastes change. A 3 hour show in an era where people barely have time for Netflix excursions will do that to you. John Cena has won and won and won since 2005. No way a win in 2015 is a fridge too far. The fans who complain the loudest are the ones who care the most and ones more likely to watch than those who stop watching. The ones who cease their WWE fandom are the ones you never hear from, because as I said before, they have better things to do than threaten others with the horrifying loss of their single USA Network view on a Monday night. And don't get me started on illegal streamers. The worst. I don't disagree with you at all. From my own personal experience in regards to your post. A while back I had a debate with an individual who complained about how bad the WWE is, how the booking is horrible, and how they've truly lost him as a fan but he continued to watch out of habit. I made suggestions to forms of entertainment that are more consistent, exciting, unique, and actually have a payoff in regards to the product itself. But she was so addicted and "trained" into accepting what the WWE put out that she couldn't stop watching. Me? I don't think I grew out of it, although, as a fan, I found myself becoming more disinterested and bored just because the product has become too safe, predictable, and just flat out boring as a whole in my opinion. I find more entertainment and excitement in watching Game of Thrones, House of Cards, Orange is The New Black, Power, NCIS, and Falling Skies. I just decided to stop complaining, change the channel, don't order the PPV's or subscribe to the Network, and find an alternative that's suitable for me. Precisely. I've kept track, not like in Excel format or anything, but just using mental notes. And I've never seen a "I'm so done watching this shit!" post ever be fulfilled. The poster is back within 2 weeks, in the RAW thread, on the post-PPV complaint thread, even in the pre-Smackdown threads (spoilers, reports, etc). The only ones who never came back are the ones who would either get banned for being disrespectful soon after to others or they'd start posting in TNA threads about how much WWE stinks. Also, if you read other forums on the web for your wrasslin fix, you'd see the same names pop up, even ones from FAN's past. I'd like to think they kept interest if they took the time to frequent another wrestling forum, some of them paid subscription based. I'd rather go rewatch Monk or catch up with Game of Thrones with my girlfriend than convince myself to watch something I know I'll hate. I get that the internet gives ease to hyperbole, and boy have we all seen it here, but after a while it becomes numbing to see negativity and pretend to take it seriously. Kind of like how it's numbing for some fans to see Cena win against an upstart again. It's like it never registers anymore.
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Post by britstap on Jul 19, 2015 22:31:19 GMT -5
That match was wack as f***, I don't care what anyone says. Easily the worst they've had together. No real flow whatsoever, they just did MOVES~! while barely selling most of them. That was a bad ROH match. Really hope these two don't wrestle again just because I'm tired of these matches. I'm glad I'm not the only one that wasn't into the match. Ignoring the LOLCENAWINS (because what else can you do at this point?) It just felt directionless, and I'm not a fan of 800 finishers in a match.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
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Post by gr1990 on Jul 19, 2015 22:35:57 GMT -5
Well, think of it this way, Cena beat him 2-1 just like he has most of his opponents ever. But unlike most of his predecessors, Owens' one win was clean as a sheet, meaning he's fared better against Cena than most.
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Sicho100
Hank Scorpio
Easily Confused.
Posts: 5,965
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Post by Sicho100 on Jul 19, 2015 22:37:31 GMT -5
as long as vince is in charge, the cena reign of terror is never going to end. vince is so obsessed with keeping cena strong that essentially nothing short of an act of god is going to stop cena from hurting and destroying every potential new superstar on the roster. Over the past few years, I had begun to turn around on Cena. I had been in the typical internet fan of "F*** Cena" for a while, but probably 2012 or 2013, I started getting on the "Actually, Cena's a pretty good performer" bandwagon. The Rusev feud made me swing right back into the F*** Cena camp, and I've stayed there since, and it's because of what you said. Triple H's Reign of Terror would have been from, what, 2002 until 2005? And that run still follows him ten years later for how much talent was squandered at his expense. Cena's been doing the same damn thing for a decade now. Every time they have a new hot star, he needs to be sacrificed at the Altar of Cena. F*** this company.
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