malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 13:45:46 GMT -5
Wrapping it up in TERF terms like "biological" doesn't make it any less obvious that you're treating her as male and ignoring her actual gender. Whether or not you think she passes is beside the f***ing point. But there IS a difference. We can't pretend like biology is not relevant in this case. Does she have periods? Is she going to have the same hormonal issues? In this case, bathrooms are not just about gender. How is it disrespectful to acknowledge that, in this case? She has different needs than the other girls, there's no getting around that, but it can still be handled respectfully.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 13:48:11 GMT -5
Google shows the result as "trans exclusionary radical feminist" Wait, what? How is that radical feminist? How is acknowledging that people with certain biological makeups have different needs and issues, radical or exclusionary? Bathrooms and their functions are not solely based on social constructs, so it's not fair to only look at it through gender. If their's a better, more respectful term to use other than "biological" please let me know, I honestly am not trying to be exclusionary or disrespectful here.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,432
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 2, 2015 13:51:47 GMT -5
Wrapping it up in TERF terms like "biological" doesn't make it any less obvious that you're treating her as male and ignoring her actual gender. Whether or not you think she passes is beside the f***ing point. But there IS a difference. We can't pretend like biology is not relevant in this case. Does she have periods? Is she going to have the same hormonal issues? In this case, bathrooms are not just about gender. How is it disrespectful to acknowledge that, in this case? She has different needs than the other girls, there's no getting around that, but it can still be handled respectfully. Not everyone has the same hormonal experience. Not all girls have periods. Some people who do have periods aren't female. If they're going to exclude everyone who has a different experience, that's one thing, but treating her as the one exception is transphobic.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 13:58:37 GMT -5
But there IS a difference. We can't pretend like biology is not relevant in this case. Does she have periods? Is she going to have the same hormonal issues? In this case, bathrooms are not just about gender. How is it disrespectful to acknowledge that, in this case? She has different needs than the other girls, there's no getting around that, but it can still be handled respectfully. Not everyone has the same hormonal experience. Not all girls have periods. Some people who do have periods aren't female. If they're going to exclude everyone who has a different experience, that's one thing, but treating her as the one exception is transphobic. I understand that not all girls have periods, and this is why I said issues like that are still within a biological female context. As a born female (in terms of SEX, not GENDER), usually if you don't have a period, you check to see if their are health problems are something, because the general expectation of a healthy person with a certain set of chromosomes is that they'll have a period. If you're born with a different set of chromosomes, it is not a possible issue if you don't get a period. Of course all XX chromosome carries do not have the same hormonal experience. Some do or don't have children, some do or don't become curvy, getting a double-masectomy will not mean you no longer have XX chromosomes, etc. But honestly, if you're born with XY chromosomes and you don't get a period by a certain age, do you worry about that? Or if you are XX, do you wake up one day and get concerned because "hey, I suspect that my sperm count is probably kind of low, is there possibly a health issue here?" Also, who gets periods that isn't a female? Do you mean inter-gender (if I'm thinking of the right word)? Again, that is a specific case. It does not mean that there is something wrong or bad about that, it is just different. And likewise, as a born-XX chromosome carrier, I know that I will not be able to completely understand everything someone like that experiences, but it doesn't mean I can't have empathy and respect for our differences.
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Post by Cela on Sept 2, 2015 14:01:31 GMT -5
Wrapping it up in TERF terms like "biological" doesn't make it any less obvious that you're treating her as male and ignoring her actual gender. Whether or not you think she passes is beside the f***ing point. And you're ignoring the subject's sex. Which, in regards to showers, despite how someone identifies as part of the social construct of gender is still a visual indicator that makes people uncomfortable when naked.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Sept 2, 2015 14:03:56 GMT -5
People, if you are going to post, you need to have respect for both sides in this. What you consider common knowledge or the right way to do things may be completely unknown to others.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Sept 2, 2015 14:06:24 GMT -5
Google shows the result as "trans exclusionary radical feminist" Wait, what? How is that radical feminist? How is acknowledging that people with certain biological makeups have different needs and issues, radical or exclusionary? I have no idea. I'm just the google man. I don't think the periods and hormonal stuff really matter. Literally the only logistical difference between the men and women's restrooms is a lack of urinals and the addition of a box to throw used tampons in, and also apparently a grossly inadequate number of toilets if I've learned anything from seeing the lines at women's restrooms at large public events. This is mainly about 1) reasonable discomfort caused by someone who looks like a young man wearing a wig walking into the bathroom and 2) a lack of understanding and/or prejudice learned from whatever source, most likely from their parents. I imagine the conversation after school went something like "So this weird thing which I could probably learn to deal with happened at school today" "OH MY GOD HOW HORRIBLE, I'M GOING TO THE PAPERS" "YES OH MY GOD HOW HORRIBLE!"
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 14:16:29 GMT -5
Wait, what? How is that radical feminist? How is acknowledging that people with certain biological makeups have different needs and issues, radical or exclusionary? I have no idea. I'm just the google man. I don't think the periods and hormonal stuff really matter. Literally the only logistical difference between the men and women's restrooms is a lack of urinals and the addition of a box to throw used tampons in, and also apparently a grossly inadequate number of toilets if I've learned anything from seeing the lines at women's restrooms at large public events. This is mainly about 1) reasonable discomfort caused by someone who looks like a young man wearing a wig walking into the bathroom and 2) a lack of understanding and/or prejudice learned from whatever source, most likely from their parents. I imagine the conversation after school went something like "So this weird thing which I could probably learn to deal with happened at school today" "OH MY GOD HOW HORRIBLE, I'M GOING TO THE PAPERS" "YES OH MY GOD HOW HORRIBLE!" I would respectfully disagree, I think (and I believe a lot of, ummm, XX chromosome carriers, I guess) feel that the hormones do matter. Not everyone is comfortable discussing periods, asking for tampons/pads, or whatever around people who don't at least have some common context for the situation. If a girl has to, outside of a stall and in plain view, wash and try to blow-dry something that got an unfortunate stain, in front of other people, I guarantee quite a few would be even more hesitant to do so around what they perceive as a biological male. Not that it's a picnic anyway, but at least it's easier to have that experience around people who know the feeling or understand that it could potentially be them in that situation one day. Not to mention the other physical and emotional problems that are too often dismissed as "oh, you're just acting that way because it's that time of month," or "it's not so bad, you just bleed a bit, sometimes I get kicked in the nuts and it hurts but I don't complain." And the fear that someone will know you're on your period by the smell in your stall, sound of pads/tampons, etc...it's a matter of privacy, and at least around other people who potentially can have a period, they generally have been in the same shoes so it doesn't feel as embarrasing. Things like that are very relevant to why many people with that problem want a space of their own.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,432
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 2, 2015 14:22:51 GMT -5
Not everyone has the same hormonal experience. Not all girls have periods. Some people who do have periods aren't female. If they're going to exclude everyone who has a different experience, that's one thing, but treating her as the one exception is transphobic. I understand that not all girls have periods, and this is why I said issues like that are still within a biological female context. As a born female (in terms of SEX, not GENDER), usually if you don't have a period, you check to see if their are health problems are something, because the general expectation of a healthy person with a certain set of chromosomes is that they'll have a period. If you're born with a different set of chromosomes, it is not a possible issue if you don't get a period. Of course all XX chromosome carries do not have the same hormonal experience. Some do or don't have children, some do or don't become curvy, getting a double-masectomy will not mean you no longer have XX chromosomes, etc. But honestly, if you're born with XY chromosomes and you don't get a period by a certain age, do you worry about that? Or if you are XX, do you wake up one day and get concerned because "hey, I suspect that my sperm count is probably kind of low, is there possibly a health issue here?" Also, who gets periods that isn't a female? Do you mean inter-gender (if I'm thinking of the right word)? Again, that is a specific case. It does not mean that there is something wrong or bad about that, it is just different. And likewise, as a born-XX chromosome carrier, I know that I will not be able to completely understand everything someone like that experiences, but it doesn't mean I can't have empathy and respect for our differences. For the last paragraph, I was referring to trans men, but equally, it does apply to intersex individuals, which also lends the lie to the XX Chromosome thing. To be accurate, very few people actually know their chromonsomal makeup without genetic mapping. There's a vast panoply of chromosomal combinations, some of which present themselves very obviously, some of which don't. It's only ever used as a way to discredit trans women without saying openly "they're really dudes", same as 'biological woman'.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 14:37:53 GMT -5
For the last paragraph, I was referring to trans men, but equally, it does apply to intersex individuals, which also lends the lie to the XX Chromosome thing. To be accurate, very few people actually know their chromonsomal makeup without genetic mapping. There's a vast panoply of chromosomal combinations, some of which present themselves very obviously, some of which don't. It's only ever used as a way to discredit trans women without saying openly "they're really dudes", same as 'biological woman'. But again, trans men have the female "plumbing" for that to happen, that's biology and not gender. And like I said, I understand about intersex individuals, but that's a different case. Not better or worse, just different. Look, I understand that people can identify with different genders, but I feel like we can't just throw out all the terminology and context for how people are able to address and express their biological experiences. In many cases, it's not meant to be disrespectful or exclusionary. We can't always come up with a completely rock-solid context/reference for every exact biological or emotional/mental space on the spectrum, but that doesn't mean throw out every bit of the context we have now. I don't know my exact chromosomal makeup, but I do know that for me (and for most people with similar "equipment"), an OB-GYN would know best about my health and physical needs, rather than a proctologist, even if my exact makeup differs from someone else who is dominantly XX. For someone in between, they might need a separate category, but it's still useful and practical to have at least some basic milestones or general landmarks. I am all for treating anyone with respect and dignity, but at the same time, it's two-way street. My experiences and needs are not the same as those of a MTF individual, and I expect that mines will be respected, just as I would do my best to respect those of a MTF or FTM. Sometimes that entails that new or separate arrangements are made to accomodate as many as possible, and to me that's good because it should make things easier, safer and more comfortable for EVERYONE involved.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 2, 2015 15:58:36 GMT -5
I'm just glad that we as a forum are generally mature enough to even have a progressive (not in the political sense, I mean as societal advancement) discussion like this, especially on such a young male leaning forum with a mix of geek and dudeish interests.
A less moderated community would have devolved into just a bunch of stupid jokes and possibly sided with the protesting students without even bothering to acknowledge the argument of the girl at the center of this issue, and probably also mocked her into oblivion. So yeah, I love this place.
Sorry if I'm not too articulate. still sick in the hospital now.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 2, 2015 16:02:43 GMT -5
Hope you feel better Clash.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 2, 2015 16:14:18 GMT -5
I'm with the majority, here: this girl should be allowed into the women's showers, but I understand that it could take some getting used to for the other girls there. That's reasonable.
What isn't reasonable is a walkout like they're trying to stage, here. To me, more than anything else, that points out our deranged cultural issues when it comes to the human body. It's a cliche at this point, but it never ceases to amaze how little we, meaning Americans, seem to care about our kids being exposed to violence, but how quickly we reach for our pearls and collapse into our fainting couches when the words "penis" or "vagina" are mentioned. Yes, this girl has male "plumbing". Yes, I can appreciate that this would cause discomfort and require some getting used to, at first. But given that high school gym classes include LGBT students, as well, and given how this girl identifies, there is no reasonable argument to be made against allowing her in. If we didn't raise people to treat the sight of the human body as something to scream in terror or stare mouth-agape at, maybe we could move beyond this stuff, but that's not an issue that's going to be resolved any time soon.
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Sept 2, 2015 16:20:00 GMT -5
I'm just glad that we as a forum are generally mature enough to even have a progressive (not in the political sense, I mean as societal advancement) discussion like this, especially on such a young male leaning forum with a mix of geek and dudeish interests. A less moderated community would have devolved into just a bunch of stupid jokes and possibly sided with the protesting students without even bothering to acknowledge the argument of the girl at the center of this issue, and probably also mocked her into oblivion. So yeah, I love this place. Sorry if I'm not too articulate. still sick in the hospital now. This is one of the most mature and reasonable Internet forums, wrestling-focused or otherwise, that I've ever visited. It's why I post on here and not on some other wrestling forums I know of.
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Post by DoubleDare on Sept 2, 2015 16:20:12 GMT -5
Maybe the trans could wear a bathing suit bottom while showering?
Using the boy's room would be worse because how teenage boys can be.
It's a crappy situation.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Sept 2, 2015 16:29:36 GMT -5
After watching My Name is Jazz it really taught me a lot about the subject, and honestly I suggest watching her show. It explains situations like this and countless issues she faces
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 16:44:04 GMT -5
I'm with the majority, here: this girl should be allowed into the women's showers, but I understand that it could take some getting used to for the other girls there. That's reasonable. What isn't reasonable is a walkout like they're trying to stage, here. To me, more than anything else, that points out our deranged cultural issues when it comes to the human body. It's a cliche at this point, but it never ceases to amaze how little we, meaning Americans, seem to care about our kids being exposed to violence, but how quickly we reach for our pearls and collapse into our fainting couches when the words "penis" or "vagina" are mentioned. Yes, this girl has male "plumbing". Yes, I can appreciate that this would cause discomfort and require some getting used to, at first. But given that high school gym classes include LGBT students, as well, and given how this girl identifies, there is no reasonable argument to be made against allowing her in. If we didn't raise people to treat the sight of the human body as something to scream in terror or stare mouth-agape at, maybe we could move beyond this stuff, but that's not an issue that's going to be resolved any time soon. I feel like the walkout might be more because the other girls felt like their concerns aren't being addressed. Apparently from what I've been reading/hearing, she was walking around the girls' locker room in a thong, flaunting herself, which made the 13/14 year olds feel uncomfortable. They weren't protesting him as a person, they wanted to have their concerns addressed as well. The other thing that needs to be addressed is sexual violence. Like I mentioned before, for a lot of females, it's not just because the human body is stigmatized. You have some girls who have been victimized, molested or put in terrible situations involving males, even relatives or boyfriends, and this could legitimately traumatize them. Where is the concern for them? Why is it assumed that born-females should just deal with it and their feelings not considered? Lila doesn't feel safe apparently using the men's room, understandable, so he got the unisex room, but why is it not valid for the other girls to be concerned about their safety or modesty? So the other young ladies just don't count? I really feel like this comes back to how born-females are always expected to accomodate and adjust for everyone else. I feel like I don't see a lot of issues like this with born-men adjusting themselves for situations like this. Not that FTMs don't experience problems, but it seems like when things like this happen, it's usually about how born-females are being non-tolerant or need to concede all the time without compromise. Like the whole "Vagina Monologues" not being shown at women's colleges anymore because it's exclusionary. I generally am not even really a "feminist" or anything like that, and as I said, I want everyone to be treated respectfully, but this has really made me feel some type of way... ETA: Let me also say that I am trying very hard to consider both sides, but from what I'm seeing in general it seems like there hasn't been as much of an effort to try and see where Lila's classmates are coming from, without just resorting to "oh they're just being bigots" or they should just be comfortable with nude biologically male body parts, or exposing THEMSELVES to someone that they have known as a male until last year. Most born-females didn't ask for all of the packaging that comes with it, the violence and discomfort, but they're getting the short end here, I feel. Lila herself even said they're just finding excuses to be bigots, no attempt to even find a mutually workable solution.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 2, 2015 16:45:14 GMT -5
I'm just glad that we as a forum are generally mature enough to even have a progressive (not in the political sense, I mean as societal advancement) discussion like this, especially on such a young male leaning forum with a mix of geek and dudeish interests. A less moderated community would have devolved into just a bunch of stupid jokes and possibly sided with the protesting students without even bothering to acknowledge the argument of the girl at the center of this issue, and probably also mocked her into oblivion. So yeah, I love this place. Sorry if I'm not too articulate. still sick in the hospital now. This is one of the most mature and reasonable Internet forums, wrestling-focused or otherwise, that I've ever visited. It's why I post on here and not on some other wrestling forums I know of. ....uh... PG WWE SUX! BRING BACK PUNK AND TEH BLOOD FIRE DUNN!
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Sept 2, 2015 17:38:23 GMT -5
This is one of the most mature and reasonable Internet forums, wrestling-focused or otherwise, that I've ever visited. It's why I post on here and not on some other wrestling forums I know of. ....uh... PG WWE SUX! BRING BACK PUNK AND TEH BLOOD FIRE DUNN! I'll have you know that those are all very well informed and educated positions to adopt, good sir.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 2, 2015 18:15:18 GMT -5
I'm with the majority, here: this girl should be allowed into the women's showers, but I understand that it could take some getting used to for the other girls there. That's reasonable. What isn't reasonable is a walkout like they're trying to stage, here. To me, more than anything else, that points out our deranged cultural issues when it comes to the human body. It's a cliche at this point, but it never ceases to amaze how little we, meaning Americans, seem to care about our kids being exposed to violence, but how quickly we reach for our pearls and collapse into our fainting couches when the words "penis" or "vagina" are mentioned. Yes, this girl has male "plumbing". Yes, I can appreciate that this would cause discomfort and require some getting used to, at first. But given that high school gym classes include LGBT students, as well, and given how this girl identifies, there is no reasonable argument to be made against allowing her in. If we didn't raise people to treat the sight of the human body as something to scream in terror or stare mouth-agape at, maybe we could move beyond this stuff, but that's not an issue that's going to be resolved any time soon. I feel like the walkout might be more because the other girls felt like their concerns aren't being addressed. Apparently from what I've been reading/hearing, she was walking around the girls' locker room in a thong, flaunting herself, which made the 13/14 year olds feel uncomfortable. They weren't protesting him as a person, they wanted to have their concerns addressed as well. The other thing that needs to be addressed is sexual violence. Like I mentioned before, for a lot of females, it's not just because the human body is stigmatized. You have some girls who have been victimized, molested or put in terrible situations involving males, even relatives or boyfriends, and this could legitimately traumatize them. Where is the concern for them? Why is it assumed that born-females should just deal with it and their feelings not considered? Lila doesn't feel safe apparently using the men's room, understandable, so he got the unisex room, but why is it not valid for the other girls to be concerned about their safety or modesty? So the other young ladies just don't count? I really feel like this comes back to how born-females are always expected to accomodate and adjust for everyone else. I feel like I don't see a lot of issues like this with born-men adjusting themselves for situations like this. Not that FTMs don't experience problems, but it seems like when things like this happen, it's usually about how born-females are being non-tolerant or need to concede all the time without compromise. Like the whole "Vagina Monologues" not being shown at women's colleges anymore because it's exclusionary. I generally am not even really a "feminist" or anything like that, and as I said, I want everyone to be treated respectfully, but this has really made me feel some type of way... ETA: Let me also say that I am trying very hard to consider both sides, but from what I'm seeing in general it seems like there hasn't been as much of an effort to try and see where Lila's classmates are coming from, without just resorting to "oh they're just being bigots" or they should just be comfortable with nude biologically male body parts, or exposing THEMSELVES to someone that they have known as a male until last year. Most born-females didn't ask for all of the packaging that comes with it, the violence and discomfort, but they're getting the short end here, I feel. Lila herself even said they're just finding excuses to be bigots, no attempt to even find a mutually workable solution. Couple of concerns: -I get that the girls aren't comfortable. Unfortunately, any time there's social change, somebody is going to be uncomfortable; it is the unavoidable price of progress. It's not a perfect comparison, but go back to whenever schools began to have ethnically-integrated school showers; tons of people refused to shower with people of different skin tones, and had to get over it. -"Flaunting"? Not entirely sure what that means, because simply walking around in a thong isn't "flaunting", it's underwear. If the trans girl was engaged in improper behavior, then there's no reason not to address that the same way any other girl behaving inappropriately would be addressed. -It's entirely fair to consider the feelings of those who have been traumatized before; again, if the girl is engaged in any behavior that aggravates that, then she should be reprimanded. If she isn't, then there isn't much to be done. The mere sight of a penis may cause problems for some people who have been victimized, and I would greatly sympathize with anybody who has been so abused; however, I go back to my point on our overwhelming cultural issues with getting people to simply accept the human body.
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