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Post by Cela on Sept 2, 2015 18:42:45 GMT -5
I'm just glad that we as a forum are generally mature enough to even have a progressive (not in the political sense, I mean as societal advancement) discussion like this, especially on such a young male leaning forum with a mix of geek and dudeish interests. A less moderated community would have devolved into just a bunch of stupid jokes and possibly sided with the protesting students without even bothering to acknowledge the argument of the girl at the center of this issue, and probably also mocked her into oblivion. So yeah, I love this place. Sorry if I'm not too articulate. still sick in the hospital now. Ah hell, what happened? You going to be all right?
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 18:59:39 GMT -5
Couple of concerns: -I get that the girls aren't comfortable. Unfortunately, any time there's social change, somebody is going to be uncomfortable; it is the unavoidable price of progress. It's not a perfect comparison, but go back to whenever schools began to have ethnically-integrated school showers; tons of people refused to shower with people of different skin tones, and had to get over it. -"Flaunting"? Not entirely sure what that means, because simply walking around in a thong isn't "flaunting", it's underwear. If the trans girl was engaged in improper behavior, then there's no reason not to address that the same way any other girl behaving inappropriately would be addressed. -It's entirely fair to consider the feelings of those who have been traumatized before; again, if the girl is engaged in any behavior that aggravates that, then she should be reprimanded. If she isn't, then there isn't much to be done. The mere sight of a penis may cause problems for some people who have been victimized, and I would greatly sympathize with anybody who has been so abused; however, I go back to my point on our overwhelming cultural issues with getting people to simply accept the human body. I will have to respectfully disagree. I think that transgender and issues and ethnic integration issues in this specific instance are only superficially comparable. It really irks me when I see people comparing other struggles to black/ethnic rights, there are some underlying premises in commmon, but I think each are different enough to stand on their own merits, and they are different enough that they can't just be compared as the same thing. I know you said it's not a perfect comparison, but I still feel there's a biological basis for this specific case rather than with skin color. Plus this is giving me unpleasant forebodings about the whole trans-racial, "gender is just as fluid, race is too" thing. It would be nice if there was some more focus on why is it that born-females specifically have to feel that they need safe-havens in the first place, which to me is not just about people accepting the human body, but also about biologically-apparent women being abused and treated the way they are. I'm sure a lot of born-females would love for their to be a more accepting attitude about the human body and themselves as people (like how we're supposed to dress a certain way to not get raped and abused, but now these girls are expected to be ok with disrobing in front of someone they've known as male for years). It just seems like a lot of the onus is falling on the female sex, not the male sex. I'm sure that's why it seems FTM are less vocal, because they probably fear what would happen if they demanded that born-males made similar adjustments like them. Not like we don't have plenty of examples of that happening in other spheres. I should clarify that I have no idea of your stance on how females are treated, and how it relates to this, so I hope it doesn't sound like I'm accusing you of anything or being bitter towards men or anything like that...this just goes way deeper than "prudishness" to me. I'm glad that I was able to participate in this discussion, it's always good to see others' thoughts, but this has actually gotten me very heated for a few different reasons, which is unusual for me and I was not really expecting, so I will gracefully bow out at this point.
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Post by Georgina's Fancy Water on Sept 2, 2015 19:03:41 GMT -5
My school never had group showers and I could never imagine using them, trans or not trans. Everyone would just be doing shower stuff and I'd be in the corner like
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 2, 2015 19:26:08 GMT -5
I'm just glad that we as a forum are generally mature enough to even have a progressive (not in the political sense, I mean as societal advancement) discussion like this, especially on such a young male leaning forum with a mix of geek and dudeish interests. A less moderated community would have devolved into just a bunch of stupid jokes and possibly sided with the protesting students without even bothering to acknowledge the argument of the girl at the center of this issue, and probably also mocked her into oblivion. So yeah, I love this place. Sorry if I'm not too articulate. still sick in the hospital now. Ah hell, what happened? You going to be all right? Uber bad case of flu.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 19:32:14 GMT -5
Although I pride myself on standing up for LGBT rights, I'm disturbed by the amount of people essentially saying "the rights of one outweigh the rights of the many."
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Sept 2, 2015 20:02:10 GMT -5
Question:
If lesbian girls can shower with straight girls, and gay guys can shower with straight boys, and from a moral standpoint at least, transgendered men or women should be able to shower with whichever gender they identify as....
Why couldn't straight boys with penises who identify as male, be in the same showers as straight girls with vaginas who identify as female?
Because it's apparently not a sexual issue and also not a genital issue, so why couldn't they? Or am I missing something?
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 2, 2015 20:15:46 GMT -5
Although I pride myself on standing up for LGBT rights, I'm disturbed by the amount of people essentially saying "the rights of one outweigh the rights of the many." The concept of protecting the rights of the individual or the minority in the face of the desires of the majority is, at heart, the entire basis of the Bill of Rights. I haven't heard this before, but given that both are social, not biological, constructs, it might have something to it. Race isn't even a thing, outside of when we want it to be one, and while sex is one thing, gender is also something that only exists because we will it to exist. As for why we're not discussing men accepting the change in this case, we're also not dealing with a story involving a trans boy, so most of the discussion is centered on this specific instance. There's a societal shift that can't just happen in one corner of society; it demands action and rethinking of norms on the part of all people. But we're looking at one particular story in this situation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 20:25:52 GMT -5
My school never had group showers and I could never imagine using them, trans or not trans. Everyone would just be doing shower stuff and I'd be in the corner like We had a kid get suspended at my high school for not liking other dudes getting close to him in the shower and he legit struck a martial arts pose and started faux push kicking them i have taken to referring to his naked last stand as dickfu.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Sept 2, 2015 20:28:49 GMT -5
Question: If lesbian girls can shower with straight girls, and gay guys can shower with straight boys, and from a moral standpoint at least, transgendered men or women should be able to shower with whichever gender they identify as.... Why couldn't straight boys with penises who identify as male, be in the same showers as straight girls with vaginas who identify as female? Because it's apparently not a sexual issue and also not a genital issue, so why couldn't they? Or am I missing something? This- it may seem like a joke, but it is a viable problem that'll also have to be noticed with problems like the current story. Gender is a far more fluid construct now, which doesn't even just count transgender or cisgender. Meanwhile, teenagers are at their sneakiest, most conniving, and most perverted that they will ever be. Put them together- and it's a guarantee with a situation like this- within 24 hours of this woman being allowed to shower with the girls, some boy will officially claim he's genderfluid to the point he identifies as a male for everything else in life, but identifies as a female for showering and going to the bathroom, and thus he needs to be allowed to shower and go to the bathroom with the female students (almost certainly with a "and make sure they're the hot onez hur hur hur" rider to it)- and even though it would be clear he's in the wrong, there wouldn't be a leg to stand on to refuse (if not the other unmentioned part- since most of these girls only knew the woman in question a boy up until this summer, and they offered her a separate shower/bathroom but was refused, it's a very realistic concern that many of the girls could see this story as the woman in question trying to pull that exact scenario.)
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,915
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Post by BRV on Sept 2, 2015 20:46:02 GMT -5
I'm with the majority, here: this girl should be allowed into the women's showers, but I understand that it could take some getting used to for the other girls there. That's reasonable. What isn't reasonable is a walkout like they're trying to stage, here. To me, more than anything else, that points out our deranged cultural issues when it comes to the human body. It's a cliche at this point, but it never ceases to amaze how little we, meaning Americans, seem to care about our kids being exposed to violence, but how quickly we reach for our pearls and collapse into our fainting couches when the words "penis" or "vagina" are mentioned. Yes, this girl has male "plumbing". Yes, I can appreciate that this would cause discomfort and require some getting used to, at first. But given that high school gym classes include LGBT students, as well, and given how this girl identifies, there is no reasonable argument to be made against allowing her in. If we didn't raise people to treat the sight of the human body as something to scream in terror or stare mouth-agape at, maybe we could move beyond this stuff, but that's not an issue that's going to be resolved any time soon. At the end of the day, though, let's not forget that these are still 13 and 14 year old girls who are seeing a penis in a place they never thought they would have to. Sure, it's not like a penis is going to jump out and bite them, but again, these are young girls in the middle of puberty - the most confusing time in a person's life - and many of them would be seeing a penis in person for the first time in their life. That can be pretty jarring for them. Sure, it's a societal issue because of the way we raise children and educate them on human sexuality, but that's not these girls' fault. If they're uncomfortable showering with a person with a penis, nobody has the right to tell them they should have to be comfortable with it. I don't think we should force this person to shower with the boys or shower individually, just as much as I don't think we should tell these teenage girls they need to buck up and deal with the fact that they're seeing a penis whether they want to or not. That's why, as I've said before and I'll say again, there is no easy, cut-and-dry answer to this problem. Saying "let the girl shower with the girls and that's that" is not as simple as many want to make it out to be.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 2, 2015 21:03:50 GMT -5
Having an issue with this is the dumbest thing ever. People are really concerned that people would be uncomfortable with a transgendered person being in the same restroom as them? Do they really think that they would be more uncomfortable than women finding themselves sharing a restroom with a transgendered man like certain states require by law? I suppose they also are uncomfortable with gays/lesbians using the same restroom as them as well. What about bisexual individuals?
I mean, what are you going to do, have separate bathrooms for every possible group? I can just see it now; your local mall has to knock out the Baby Gap, GameStop, and Justice so that they can install public restrooms for all of the following groups:
Heterosexual men Heterosexual women Transgendered men Transgendered women Gay men Lesbians Bisexuals Hermaphrodites Androgenous men Androgenous women Family Ammosexuals (I mean, who really wants to share a restroom with a man who worries he might need to defend himself from someone who tries to cut in line because the food court Chinese food stand gave them the trots?)
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Sept 2, 2015 21:05:23 GMT -5
I feel for the girl in the story. As someone who is bi I totally understand people not understanding what feels natural to you. For someone transgendered it makes it worse as she has no doubt been called every name under the book and no doubt has been called "mentally ill" which I've always found to be insanely insulting.
As a society we have a LONG way to go as far as understanding and having general public understand LGBT issues.
On the same side I understand if some girls would feel uncomfortable. LGBT understanding and acceptance is still at its infancy in this country and it will take a long time before people are comfortable in these situations. Considering there are stilll people openly advocating against the LGBT community it will take a long time.
There is simply no easy solution. I only hope that this girl finds peace and happiness. I hope she will find a place where she will be accepted and realize that there are many of us that don't consider a freak and love her for who she is.
Also, super impressed with this forum, great job to everyone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:18:42 GMT -5
I'm with the majority, here: this girl should be allowed into the women's showers, but I understand that it could take some getting used to for the other girls there. That's reasonable. What isn't reasonable is a walkout like they're trying to stage, here. To me, more than anything else, that points out our deranged cultural issues when it comes to the human body. It's a cliche at this point, but it never ceases to amaze how little we, meaning Americans, seem to care about our kids being exposed to violence, but how quickly we reach for our pearls and collapse into our fainting couches when the words "penis" or "vagina" are mentioned. Yes, this girl has male "plumbing". Yes, I can appreciate that this would cause discomfort and require some getting used to, at first. But given that high school gym classes include LGBT students, as well, and given how this girl identifies, there is no reasonable argument to be made against allowing her in. If we didn't raise people to treat the sight of the human body as something to scream in terror or stare mouth-agape at, maybe we could move beyond this stuff, but that's not an issue that's going to be resolved any time soon. Sure, it's not like a penis is going to jump out and bite them But it could though {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:22:56 GMT -5
Although I pride myself on standing up for LGBT rights, I'm disturbed by the amount of people essentially saying "the rights of one outweigh the rights of the many." The concept of protecting the rights of the individual or the minority in the face of the desires of the majority is, at heart, the entire basis of the Bill of Rights. I haven't heard this before, but given that both are social, not biological, constructs, it might have something to it. Race isn't even a thing, outside of when we want it to be one, and while sex is one thing, gender is also something that only exists because we will it to exist. As for why we're not discussing men accepting the change in this case, we're also not dealing with a story involving a trans boy, so most of the discussion is centered on this specific instance. There's a societal shift that can't just happen in one corner of society; it demands action and rethinking of norms on the part of all people. But we're looking at one particular story in this situation. Maybe but the rhetoric, itself, is what scares me. I'm all but seeing "eff the kids who aren't comfortable." Instead of taking steps (I've yet to hear if they accept her in every other context) they just want to rip the bandaid off all at once. Could a compromise not be made, such as adding stalls in the shower? Or let her shower before everyone else? Yes, I get it, that would single her out. But I'm seeing no tolerance from neither side here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:25:19 GMT -5
Having an issue with this is the dumbest thing ever. People are really concerned that people would be uncomfortable with a transgendered person being in the same restroom as them? Do they really think that they would be more uncomfortable than women finding themselves sharing a restroom with a transgendered man like certain states require by law? I suppose they also are uncomfortable with gays/lesbians using the same restroom as them as well. What about bisexual individuals? I mean, what are you going to do, have separate bathrooms for every possible group? I can just see it now; your local mall has to knock out the Baby Gap, GameStop, and Justice so that they can install public restrooms for all of the following groups: Heterosexual men Heterosexual women Transgendered men Transgendered women Gay men Lesbians Bisexuals Hermaphrodites Androgenous men Androgenous women Family Ammosexuals (I mean, who really wants to share a restroom with a man who worries he might need to defend himself from someone who tries to cut in line because the food court Chinese food stand gave them the trots?) I"m not uncomfortable with gays in the shower with me. I wouldn't even be uncomfortable if they stared (I'd be flattered, actually, but I guess I'm too fat) But, I would be uncomfortable having my young child have to shower with a penis, regardless if it's on a female or not.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,359
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 2, 2015 21:32:13 GMT -5
The concept of protecting the rights of the individual or the minority in the face of the desires of the majority is, at heart, the entire basis of the Bill of Rights. I haven't heard this before, but given that both are social, not biological, constructs, it might have something to it. Race isn't even a thing, outside of when we want it to be one, and while sex is one thing, gender is also something that only exists because we will it to exist. As for why we're not discussing men accepting the change in this case, we're also not dealing with a story involving a trans boy, so most of the discussion is centered on this specific instance. There's a societal shift that can't just happen in one corner of society; it demands action and rethinking of norms on the part of all people. But we're looking at one particular story in this situation. Maybe but the rhetoric, itself, is what scares me. I'm all but seeing "eff the kids who aren't comfortable." Instead of taking steps (I've yet to hear if they accept her in every other context) they just want to rip the bandaid off all at once. Could a compromise not be made, such as adding stalls in the shower? Or let her shower before everyone else? Yes, I get it, that would single her out. But I'm seeing no tolerance from neither side here. The fact that there are not shower stalls is wrong to begin with, as far am concerned. Most people have an aversion to having other people see them naked. Creating situations where it is ensured to happen to your students is somewhat abusive as far as I am concerned and opens up opportunities for some students to harass other students. Take it from the kid that was everyone's favorite punching bag (having LG-MD meant I was perpetually scrawny and marked me as an easy target, which invited abuse that then made me timid and awkward, which served to encourage even more abuse). Jr./Sr. high school bullies are creative in their cruelty. Forcing students to shower in front of such kids just creates more ammo for such little monsters.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,359
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 2, 2015 21:34:57 GMT -5
Having an issue with this is the dumbest thing ever. People are really concerned that people would be uncomfortable with a transgendered person being in the same restroom as them? Do they really think that they would be more uncomfortable than women finding themselves sharing a restroom with a transgendered man like certain states require by law? I suppose they also are uncomfortable with gays/lesbians using the same restroom as them as well. What about bisexual individuals? I mean, what are you going to do, have separate bathrooms for every possible group? I can just see it now; your local mall has to knock out the Baby Gap, GameStop, and Justice so that they can install public restrooms for all of the following groups: Heterosexual men Heterosexual women Transgendered men Transgendered women Gay men Lesbians Bisexuals Hermaphrodites Androgenous men Androgenous women Family Ammosexuals (I mean, who really wants to share a restroom with a man who worries he might need to defend himself from someone who tries to cut in line because the food court Chinese food stand gave them the trots?) I"m not uncomfortable with gays in the shower with me. I wouldn't even be uncomfortable if they stared (I'd be flattered, actually, but I guess I'm too fat) But, I would be uncomfortable having my young child have to shower with a penis, regardless if it's on a female or not. My point was that at some point you have to decide to either learn to deal with such things (and help your kids deal appropriately) or you will need to have a dozen lockerrooms/restrooms in all public spaces.
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Dragonfly
Samurai Cop
...is no Barry Windham.
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Post by Dragonfly on Sept 2, 2015 22:10:49 GMT -5
The only way I can process a story like this is by making it personal. I have never told this story to anyone but my wife.
The middle school I went to was (and is - it's still open) a hole. It's ugly, full of cockroaches and in some areas, still riddled with exposed asbestos. But mostly, it was old. Case in point: The boys bathrooms in the seventh and eighth grade wing lacked proper stalls. The only thing separating the toilets were three foot tall concrete walls. That's it. No door, no privacy. You only used them if you had to.
Well there came a day towards the end of my seventh grade year (May 1994) where I needed to go. I was in there for ten minutes when a random person walked in to use the sink. "hey man... What's your name?" He asked. I, being the trusting, naive Idiot I was at the time, told him the truth. He immediately ran out into the crowded hallway and yelled that I was "masturbating in the bathroom." While it lessened big time my junior and senior year, the label of "chronic masturbater" followed me until graduation. It's one of the reasons why it took me so long to come out myself.
This story reminds me of that experience - a bunch of jackasses running with a wild story. I just hope the kid is able to deal with it. It's not easy.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 2, 2015 23:10:12 GMT -5
The concept of protecting the rights of the individual or the minority in the face of the desires of the majority is, at heart, the entire basis of the Bill of Rights. I haven't heard this before, but given that both are social, not biological, constructs, it might have something to it. Race isn't even a thing, outside of when we want it to be one, and while sex is one thing, gender is also something that only exists because we will it to exist. As for why we're not discussing men accepting the change in this case, we're also not dealing with a story involving a trans boy, so most of the discussion is centered on this specific instance. There's a societal shift that can't just happen in one corner of society; it demands action and rethinking of norms on the part of all people. But we're looking at one particular story in this situation. Maybe but the rhetoric, itself, is what scares me. I'm all but seeing "eff the kids who aren't comfortable." Instead of taking steps (I've yet to hear if they accept her in every other context) they just want to rip the bandaid off all at once. Could a compromise not be made, such as adding stalls in the shower? Or let her shower before everyone else? Yes, I get it, that would single her out. But I'm seeing no tolerance from neither side here. It's not "@#$% them" (though the walking out behavior is over the top, in my opinion), but it's unfortunately that allowing the girl in is probably the only decent solution, and that's inevitably going to make people uncomfortable. That said, I am curious if they have stalls or not. Always felt it was ridiculous not to have shower stalls in school locker rooms. Hell, when I went to high school, we just didn't bother showering, because nobody wanted to deal with it (that, and there just wasn't enough time to in between classes).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 23:23:57 GMT -5
I always thought it was silly there wasn't more privacy anyway. Going to a public school and being seen naked by your peers in your most vulnerable state seems awkward to me..just eh.
But take my school for example where we couldn't even afford paint for my art class, they ain't got a budget for stuff like that sadly.
As for this, I can understand both sides completely...However, I'm not sure I have a solution for this. I am not educated enough on the subject to propose a valid solution, so remaining silent is for the best.
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