malys
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Avenging my fallen brethren...
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Post by malys on Sept 3, 2015 7:32:50 GMT -5
You know, I think I better understand why this is bothering me so much.
If we're saying that biology and gender is fluid and not really a "thing" anyway, that does not change the fact that apparent-women, people perceived as women, suffer very real consequences.
This reminds me of the whole "black people are exclusionist" for having things like HBCUs, black student unions, BET, etc, or for even having discussions that talk about our unique struggles with afro-hair and not just plain curly hair that many non-blacks have (it is NOT the same, neither in how to care for it nor in they way that society treats it, but there are people who legitimately get angry if their hair is not included in the discussion). Evven something so simple as HAIR!
Because race isn't really a thing, right? But sure enough, people sure do know what to look for when they decide they want to target a so-called black person for violence, or exclude them from jobs or advertising, or whatever the case may be. But then you have "colorblind" people who swear up and down that black people don't really have a problem, they're just setting themselves apart, and it's all in our heads. No, us acting like racism doesn't exist will not solve the problem, and if we discuss around people who don't experience it, they try to gaslight us, or say things that make us feel disregarded, uncomfortable, and even angry.
Same thing with biological sex. "You don't need your own biological space, you'll get used to it" sounds to me like "Racism is dead, not even real, so you don't need groups and spaces that make sure your needs are a priority." That's not the reality we live in, racism and sexism exist, and sharing a restroom regardless of ethicity, color, gender, or biological function is not addressing the core issues. I can share a bathroom with people of other ethnicities, true, but that doesn't magically mean I don't need my own space to be able to feel safe and comfortable dealing with and expressing the specific experience of being black and what that means in this world.
There's things I feel I can't see on this forum or at work because people will look at me like I sprouted a few extra heads from neck, but black people would know exacty what I'm saying and will be able to help me process it. I didn't feel comfortable enough at my job to say something when people came to work as "China ladies" and "Jamaicans" for Halloween, and when I checked someone for talking about how "ghetto" or an "eyesore" the area near me where some poor black people lived, I was overreacting. Apparently there are some "ghetto fabulous" afro-wig for sale on Amazon, but if I say something about it in a space where I'm a black minority, my concern isn't valid because it's just a big damn joke, lighten up (even though I regularly wear an Afro and puffs myself, so I guess that makes me "ghetto fabulous"). And thaat doesn't even get into my safety as a black person, who could at any minute get pulled over or harmed by police or "vigilant citizens" and if something happened to me, there would be all sorts of excuses and attempts to explain why I deserved it, regardless of anything I have ever accomplished or what type of person I am. This whole thing just goes so much deeper than the bathroom and being comfortable with nudity. This is why minorities and people who are treated a certain way in this world (and that includes biological women) need their own spaces to feel comfortable.
No, I don't think feminism or gender and sex is the same struggle as race/ethnicity, as I've already stated, but the worst thing is to not acknowledge the differences and problems, and I know people are saying it's not "f@ck the other girls' feelings," but what I've read and seen happen in this situation seems to be saying quite the opposite so far, for the most part.
I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, as a black female I feel this hits sore spots that maybe a lot of people here can't relate to (or maybe you can, I don't know). I have also heard from transgender/LBGT people of color who have the same concerns and can see the same problems, and I can imagine their struggle is even more difficult than mine. One discussion I had, the other lady specifically took exception to the argument of ethnically-integrated washrooms because she still is treated poorly based on her race, so it's not like "oh, ok we can move on from black issues now." We see the same thing happening with born-female issues, and having seen black people's reactions and protests to things that have been in the public consciousness lately, dismissed as over-reacting, exclusionary and unreasonable, this has been galling to see it now happening from a female perspective. It really feels like the analogy of "transphobia" and "over the top" for the female classmates in this case is creeping towards the "those BLM thugs" angle. Again, not the exact same thing or degree by any means (at least these young ladies don't have to worry about cops showing up to a peaceful protest to teargas or brutalize them, with people then saying they deserved it), but the dismissiveness is there.
Sorry, I really had to get that off my chest, and I don't want to cross the line in the forum rules/guidelines, so I'm stopping here.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 3, 2015 9:00:10 GMT -5
Trans issues aren't an exact parallel of race issues, no. But I feel it's worth pointing out that they intersect, as well. Trans women of colour face the highest rates of discrimination, from being arrested for simply being out in public, to some of the most notable trans activists of all time like Marsha P. Johnson being murdered and the police taking 20 years to investigate it (not to mention her story being erased from the story of Stonewall by the upcoming film, to make it a white gay person who was involved instead), as well as making up quite a large proportion of the staggering. Numbers. Killed. Each. And. Every. Year. Yep, these are the people that don't need safe spaces, all right. Better treat them as different and an invading force trying to remove 'biologica women/natural women/xx chromosomes's rights for shits and giggles.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 3, 2015 9:10:02 GMT -5
Trans issues aren't an exact parallel of race issues, no. But I feel it's worth pointing out that they intersect, as well. Trans women of colour face the highest rates of discrimination, from being arrested for simply being out in public, to some of the most notable trans activists of all time like Marsha P. Johnson being murdered and the police taking 20 years to investigate it (not to mention her story being erased from the story of Stonewall by the upcoming film, to make it a white gay person who was involved instead), as well as making up quite a large proportion of the staggering. Numbers. Killed. Each. And. Every. Year. Yep, these are the people that don't need safe spaces, all right. Better treat them as different and an invading force trying to remove 'biologica women/natural women/xx chromosomes's rights for shits and giggles. I understand and appreciate these facts, but I've said before that they should have safe spaces as well. I have also myself pointed out the intersections, and attempted to provide the perspectives of people I have talked to who have the triple intersection of gender, race and sexuality/preference, as well as shared my experience with understanding that different issues intersect. I said that I understand that people who have multiple intersections have even more issues that I face as a WoC. To clarify, the woman I specifically mentioned is gender-fluid herself, and even she understands that each intersectional group that she experiences has valid feelings and concerns that need to be provided for. Biological women need safe spaces of their own. Transgender people need safe spaces of their own. This does not have to be a zero-sum situation, there should be accomodations made to satisfy both. I am not looking at this like a game or stunt, so why are you implying that this is about shits and giggles? Again, you are TOTALLY ignoring the fact that biological women need a safe space. I have said numerous times that I am understanding of the fact that Lila and others in her situation need safe accomodations and acceptance, but you are the one saying that biological women are not entitled to the same. And even within multiple intersectionalities their are differences and disconnects. Black women and other WOC largely are not part of mainstream white feminism because it neglects issues that we face and ignores us quite a bit, and if we point it out we're the ones being racist, that's why we have our own movement and groups. WOC feminist and mainstream issues are not the same, just as transgender and biological women issues are not the same, therefore we try (I hope) to address each different set of needs accordingly. That's not minimizing the fact that transgender individuals face violence. I think as biological women we can be empathetic towards transgender individuals, especially about the fear for safety and our contributions being co-opted and appropriated, but no matter what you say, our issues are not one in the same, and we each deserve room and accomodations to address them as needed. If you're arguing that we have no differences, well then, this is a fruitless discussion because then your premise is that there is no difference between the issues that biological women face from birth vs those transgender MTF face. Come on, we know that's not true, we can have acknowledge that there is a difference, and if not, then I don't think there's anything either one of us can say to the other that will make any bit of difference.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 3, 2015 10:00:23 GMT -5
There's a long running narrative in the media and politics and radical feminist circles of trans women not being real women, and being out to invade women's spaces, and it leads to exclusion and violence. It's usually couched in terms of making spaces safe for cis or "biological" women, and centrally requires treating trans women as not real women. Can you see why this seems like an extension of this narrative? At the end of the day, I've never heard of a cis woman committing suicide because they had to share a bathroom with a trans woman. But there are dozens if not hundreds of cases of trans people who commit suicide because of frequent misgendering and being treated as something other than what they actually are.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 3, 2015 10:34:11 GMT -5
There's a long running narrative in the media and politics and radical feminist circles of trans women not being real women, and being out to invade women's spaces, and it leads to exclusion and violence. It's usually couched in terms of making spaces safe for cis or "biological" women, and centrally requires treating trans women as not real women. Can you see why this seems like an extension of this narrative? At the end of the day, I've never heard of a cis woman committing suicide because they had to share a bathroom with a trans woman. But there are dozens if not hundreds of cases of trans people who commit suicide because of frequent misgendering and being treated as something other than what they actually are. But I know of many biological women who have committed suicide because their safety is treated as inconsequential, after repeated pleas for help and consideration; some happened at a school I attended. I understand that you feel there's a narrative, and I don't think that trans women are out to try and maliciously invade spaces. I agree that their are some parts of the narrative that are wrong, because I cannot imagine that transwomen are doing this in an effort to erode women's rights. But there IS a difference in biology, whether or not you put it in quotes, and to that is not a narrative. That's why we say there is a difference between sex and gender. You keep saying "misgendering" and that's not what I'm addressing. I have no issue with someone identifying with a gender, and I will not put myself in a place to judge that. But biological women exist and deserve their own space. Sure, there can be genetic variation and differences just like with other traits. There are women with conditions like PCOS, that have higher androgen levels, but that doesn't make them biologically male. But if there wasn't a difference we wouldn't need terms like cis or biological women. If you feel that the term "real women" is not appropriate, please suggest an alternative, but I'm sorry, we do not have the same issues biologically, and that's just that. Violence is unacceptable, so please understand that I am not condoning it. But the solution is not to deny that biologically ciswomen (is that the right terminology?) exist and are valid. Notice again that I'm not saying transgender women shoudn't have rights and space. But I am not going to have the same problems that a gendered woman with a dick is going to have. I am not saying that she won't have problems, embarrasments and concerns of her own. I CANNOT ever fully understand what she goes through, and she can't for me either, and we both have a right to privacy and space for those matters. There is nothing that can change that. And please believe, I've been doing research and trying to get others' perspectives on this, so I can be educated about other people's POV on this, but thus far I have not seen evidence to show that their is no distinction between gender and sex, or that there is no difference between ciswomen and transwomen. Again, like I said, we seem to have a fundamental disagreement, in that there are no relevant biological differences. That seems to be the crux of our issue here, and I don't see what else can be said from that perspective. Maybe there needs to be better vocabulary or research to identify and better understand more than just the few acknowledged biological sexes, I don't know, but at this time I believe the biological differences are still very relevant.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 3, 2015 11:25:26 GMT -5
Trans issues aren't an exact parallel of race issues, no. But I feel it's worth pointing out that they intersect, as well. Trans women of colour face the highest rates of discrimination, from being arrested for simply being out in public, to some of the most notable trans activists of all time like Marsha P. Johnson being murdered and the police taking 20 years to investigate it (not to mention her story being erased from the story of Stonewall by the upcoming film, to make it a white gay person who was involved instead), as well as making up quite a large proportion of the staggering. Numbers. Killed. Each. And. Every. Year. Yep, these are the people that don't need safe spaces, all right. Better treat them as different and an invading force trying to remove 'biologica women/natural women/xx chromosomes's rights for shits and giggles. I found myself researching this kind of stuff for a Cracked article that I wrote but have now kind of given up on trying to get further through the publication process (they say they love it but it keeps getting put on the backburner to the point that they literally forget they have it). Long story short, transgendered people get the shaft in general, but transgendered individuals of color are horribly mistreated by both the public and by police. The story of Islan Nettles is particularly disturbing (Google it with care. You will get violently ill the further you read about it). As far as Malys' concerns, I understand them but do not see how one can reasonably deal with them. As I pointed out on the last page, there are only two ways to make this work. Either have segregated bathrooms for all possible exclusionary groupings or find a way to make the current system work. Half measures will always come up miserably short. I am all for hearing any ideas on how to make either solution feasible for all involved, but I don't expect that such ideas are easy to come by because some on both sides of the arguments are understandably unwilling to compromise.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 3, 2015 11:58:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I sympathize with both the teenage cis girls who would understandably feel uncomfortable showering with someone with a penis, as well as the trans girl who is having her identity and personhood scrutinized in such a public manner.
I can't really take a hard stance on this one way or another because I have no clue what to do outside of suggesting that everyone wait to shower until they get home and can use a private stall. I think both sides should take a step back and try and discuss what they can do to make this as smooth a process as possible.
If this was simply about bathroom usage, I'd be fully on board with the trans girl. Same with just locker room usage because at worst you're going to see bras and underwear. But the shower thing makes this very complicated.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 3, 2015 17:51:18 GMT -5
Not going to wade too much into this topic, beause honestly I don't know if I could absolutely state with certaintly that I think either side is without merit, but in this case they do have private facilities for the student that the student has been using (it's a faculty restroom). The student is saying that she shouldn't be required to use the seperate bathroom and should be able to use all the female facilities. From what I read, one of the sticking points seems to be the changing/showering aspect, the female students don't want to share the showers/changing room with someone with a penis. This smacks to me a bit of the popular belief that 3rd wave feminists have effectively warped young girls' minds in North America into being entitled mean-spirited bullies to 'non-normals' aka non-conformist girls. The very idea that 'ewww she has a penis lets shame her' is a literal reverse-sexist hate culture if there ever was one. If feminism today were truly about gender equality, this would be a non-issue in a high school when it's the female locker room the trans-student is trying to gain access to. A half-century ago you'd think it would be the boys' locker room and male chauvinism causing problems, but the very idea that a female locker room is a 'sacred domain' that can't be sullied by a 'false woman' is so offensive in so many ways to me (a lifelong gender egalitarian) that I'm probably going to actively seek out the facebook/instagram hotspots of these Hillsboro HS students and flame them accordingly. Apologies for touching on a bit of politics in this post, my trigger in general is women who complain about being oppressed in society while at the same time oppressing people in society. This is a classic example. This post demonstrates why this topic is way too much of a mine field. Instead of these just being pubescent girls who are unsure about being asked to undress and shower in the same locker room as someone who was born a male and has male genitalia, they're either bigots who would be completely justified in being shamed and flamed by a grown adult and/or soldiers in some TERF war. There's no room for them just being insecure kids, and maybe weirded out by something that will never come out because we'll never know for sure what happened in that locker room. No one is saying that transgender people haven't had a lengthy history of horrific abuse and problems, but I have a hard time labeling the girls as bigots or claiming they're part of some huge radical feminist plot because they're being asked to deal with something that none of us likely had to deal with at 14 years of age, when our brain chemistry is completely out of whack and our world experiences are relatively limited. I just can't help but think "man, I'm really glad I don't have to make this decision" because I don't think society has done nearly enough to demystify TG issues for there to be a solution that doesn't make one group feel like they're being villified.
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Toxik916
Hank Scorpio
Sacramento Proud
Posts: 6,207
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Post by Toxik916 on Sept 3, 2015 18:10:10 GMT -5
This is one of those lose lose situations. Unfortunately we can't please everybody even in today's amazing all inclusive society.
This may be a dumb idea, but instead of labeling the facilities as either men's rooms or women's rooms we just label them by the parts you possess.
Have a dick go piss in the room with Penis on the door. Have a vagina then you can use the door marked Vagina.
This way no matter what you identify with man or woman or whatever you won't be excluded.
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Post by Cela on Sept 3, 2015 19:21:04 GMT -5
This is one of those lose lose situations. Unfortunately we can't please everybody even in today's amazing all inclusive society. This may be a dumb idea, but instead of labeling the facilities as either men's rooms or women's rooms we just label them by the parts you possess. Have a dick go piss in the room with Penis on the door. Have a vagina then you can use the door marked Vagina. This way no matter what you identify with man or woman or whatever you won't be excluded. Here's the problem. Allowing people to identify however they want is the most effective form of therapy in fixing the mental issues that come with it. Meds don't fully work, and therapy is about as effective and cruel as gay conversion camps. So, in order to prevent depression and suicides, we should allow whatever identifying the subject wants. Basically it comes down to whether it is better to have a bunch of people be momentarily uncomfortable before adopting it as a part of the new normal, or a number of depressed people potentially killing themselves over not being able to be who they feel they are.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 3, 2015 20:54:04 GMT -5
This smacks to me a bit of the popular belief that 3rd wave feminists have effectively warped young girls' minds in North America into being entitled mean-spirited bullies to 'non-normals' aka non-conformist girls. The very idea that 'ewww she has a penis lets shame her' is a literal reverse-sexist hate culture if there ever was one. If feminism today were truly about gender equality, this would be a non-issue in a high school when it's the female locker room the trans-student is trying to gain access to. A half-century ago you'd think it would be the boys' locker room and male chauvinism causing problems, but the very idea that a female locker room is a 'sacred domain' that can't be sullied by a 'false woman' is so offensive in so many ways to me (a lifelong gender egalitarian) that I'm probably going to actively seek out the facebook/instagram hotspots of these Hillsboro HS students and flame them accordingly. Apologies for touching on a bit of politics in this post, my trigger in general is women who complain about being oppressed in society while at the same time oppressing people in society. This is a classic example. This post demonstrates why this topic is way too much of a mine field. Instead of these just being pubescent girls who are unsure about being asked to undress and shower in the same locker room as someone who was born a male and has male genitalia, they're either bigots who would be completely justified in being shamed and flamed by a grown adult and/or soldiers in some TERF war. There's no room for them just being insecure kids, and maybe weirded out by something that will never come out because we'll never know for sure what happened in that locker room. No one is saying that transgender people haven't had a lengthy history of horrific abuse and problems, but I have a hard time labeling the girls as bigots or claiming they're part of some huge radical feminist plot because they're being asked to deal with something that none of us likely had to deal with at 14 years of age, when our brain chemistry is completely out of whack and our world experiences are relatively limited. I just can't help but think "man, I'm really glad I don't have to make this decision" because I don't think society has done nearly enough to demystify TG issues for there to be a solution that doesn't make one group feel like they're being villified. "TERF war" That is a terrible, yet excellent pun.
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Post by Display Name on Sept 3, 2015 21:19:31 GMT -5
I gotta say, the people that are trying to appear the most open-minded on this subject are actually coming off as the most close-minded.Truly think about both sides.This is so tricky and sooo far from black and white.
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Sept 3, 2015 22:43:04 GMT -5
This wouldn't be a problem if people would just stop taking showers. What about baths? I do enjoy a good bath. Especially bubble baths.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 23:12:59 GMT -5
Edit: I removed two of my posts because I viewed them as derailing a thread with issues I want to talk about when they aren't the discussion here and that seems inappropriate.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
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Post by malys on Sept 3, 2015 23:13:30 GMT -5
Edited out of respect for IpponDropkick's edit
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 23:20:19 GMT -5
That's fair. I don't think women SHOULD have to adjust their behavior in this case, for the record. I think women, especially young women, need a space where they feel comfortable because they have so many of them.
I also think for teenage girls, and this might be an out of date, mildly sexist assumption frankly, that a bathroom isn't just a bathroom? I know a lot of girls who socialized in the bathroom, who tried to hash out difficult parts of their day, there's a reason you see a lot of girls go to the bathroom together. It's so they can have a private space to talk some shit out. That's just what I've been told though, might not apply everywhere. I don't think men really do that? I think the bathroom's a spot to pee, you know?
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 3, 2015 23:28:27 GMT -5
I also think for teenage girls, and this might be an out of date, mildly sexist assumption frankly, that a bathroom isn't just a bathroom? I know a lot of girls who socialized in the bathroom, who tried to hash out difficult parts of their day, there's a reason you see a lot of girls go to the bathroom together. It's so they can have a private space to talk some shit out. That's just what I've been told though, might not apply everywhere. I don't think men really do that? I think the bathroom's a spot to pee, you know? It depends on the person, of course. I'm not really a socializer myself, but the bathroom was always were a lot of girls went to gossip, do makeup, cry, etc. But without getting too graphic, and of course you can imagine, I'd guess, there are other uncomfortable, embarrasing things that girls have to do in bathroom involving a certain monthly "curse." And it can be fairly obvious, even if you're in a stall, and sometimes accidents occur before you get to one, and in that case, it's really not something a lot of young girls (or even women) are comfortable experiencing around each other, let alone a biological male. Especially if there's a lot of pain, sometimes the bathroom is the only place where you can try and regain some kind of composure, or grit through the pain, unfortunately
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 23:43:23 GMT -5
My first instinct on hearing this is to say that the transgendered woman should still have to change with the boys but going through this thread and thinking about it, it does seem a bit silly. What is the threat of a transgendered girl in a girls' locker room? It's not like at that point the concept of a penis is a real mystery, and I think that if the threat is arousal then all homesexual students should basically have to change alone. I always found it uncomfortable in a mens' locker room with a bunch of sports kids wagging their dicks around. The locker room is such a rollercoaster of weird social challenges anyways I think in this case it's better just to let the individual go where they feel more comfortable. It's gonna be weird for people either way, might as well let the transgendered go where they want so at least someone gets a win out of it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 4, 2015 9:04:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I think what most of us boil it down to is that it's entirely understandable why a group of young women who have never had any experience with something like this would be uncomfortable (personally, I still think our very Americanized aversion toward the human body is a major source of that discomfort), but that there isn't much of a better answer available to us as of this moment, short of somebody stepping up to provide the school with individual shower stalls in its locker rooms.
We can't expect kids to respond to everything positively, sure, but the only other answers are "the trans girl must shower with the boys", thus ignoring her self-identification, or "the trans girl must shower alone", which marginalizes her. Again, without somebody providing individual stalls, the other answers are just that much worse.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Sept 4, 2015 9:29:26 GMT -5
The open and stall-less showers/bathrooms in school were the most traumatic part of my school years. And I only had "man boobs" that were constantly getting pinched, towel whipped or constantly the topic of jokes. I couldn't imagine going in there with any sort of trans-anything.
Am I terribly oversimplifying and being a terrible person it if I view the bigger problem as "school locker rooms without private areas are horrible and breed traumatic experiences" more-so than it being solely a gender discrimination problem?
God, even trying to take a dump meant sitting there as an army of 12-18 year olds harassed you and tossed paper towels soaked in water at you as if your shitter was a basketball hoop. Oh god, I hope that was just non-toilet water.
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