Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 9:47:13 GMT -5
I have to admit, I have a very hard time wrapping my mind around this issue. I suppose it may just take time. But right now, I do see the side of the girls who do not want someone with male genitalia in their locker room showering and changing alongside of them, more than I see the side of the transgender person that wants to shower and change in there. If who you're in the locker room with is truly not a big deal, it shouldn't be a big deal to the transgender person to shower/change in the mens' locker room. Which means that this is a big deal, and the feelings of all sides should be considered.
My main hang up is that, until very recently it seems, we've always had our sexuality defined by our genitals and sex chromosomes, rather than our brains. The mental part has always seemed more like a social construct than biological gender to me. That may be where I'm missing the boat.
I'm more than happy to be educated on this issue if anyone feels compelled. It's something I'm going to research for myself as well, but hearing from a knowledgeable person here may help me understand things better.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 10:37:18 GMT -5
My main hang up is that, until very recently it seems, we've always had our sexuality defined by our genitals and sex chromosomes, rather than our brains. The mental part has always seemed more like a social construct than biological gender to me. That may be where I'm missing the boat. Actually the idea of transgendered people is a very old (even ancient) concept that's just more recently been given a formal name and due to certain societal constaints only recently been allowed to re-surface in most modern countries. Sexuality was much more fluid in the past than people think. More over, sexuality is defined more by our brains and our society, than by our genitals. That is to say, how you're treated by society as a whole is largely dictated by which genitals you were born with, so that too is a social construct.
|
|
Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
|
Post by Hawk Hart on Sept 4, 2015 11:20:18 GMT -5
It saddens me to see that people from the same part of the world as I was raised can be so shitty towards another person but I can't be truly shocked.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Sept 4, 2015 11:27:22 GMT -5
The open and stall-less showers/bathrooms in school were the most traumatic part of my school years. And I only had "man boobs" that were constantly getting pinched, towel whipped or constantly the topic of jokes. I couldn't imagine going in there with any sort of trans-anything. Am I terribly oversimplifying and being a terrible person it if I view the bigger problem as "school locker rooms without private areas are horrible and breed traumatic experiences" more-so than it being solely a gender discrimination problem? God, even trying to take a dump meant sitting there as an army of 12-18 year olds harassed you and tossed paper towels soaked in water at you as if your shitter was a basketball hoop. Oh god, I hope that was just non-toilet water. I think that point is a very important one, but I think we can also compartmentalize the overall negative experiences it often breeds with the more specific cases of gender issues therein. Both are very important, so there's no need to make it a competition between the two for relevance (not that you're doing that, but lots of people tend to play the "Yeah, you think YOU got it bad?!" game).
|
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
|
Post by trollrogue on Sept 5, 2015 2:39:42 GMT -5
I sympathize with the student, but I think biological girls/females have a right to their own space, especially at that age. They're dealing with changes and feelings that Lila never will experience; periods, hormone changes, things like that. Lila has valid issues too, but her experience is going to be different. Periods and such can be embarassing and traumatizing as it is, and I can see how biological females would not be comfortable being around someone who is never going to understand that experience. And yes, I know not all biological females have periods, or the exact same experience, but it's still within the same biological context (worrying about not having a period or certain changes is a bio-female experience). Also, unfortunately for a lot of biological females, male "equipment" can be triggering and uncomfortable. What if some of the girls had been previously assaulted or harassed, and the thought of having to view or change/shower around dick, without their consent, is awkward or even traumatic for them? I am not saying that Lila is going to assault anyone or anything like that, but for a lot of biological females, a female restroom is one of the few places where they can expect a safe-haven from the things that a lot of biological women are subjected to. In a broader context outside of this particular case, do you guys understand how unsettling it is a for a female to walk into a women's restroom and see what appears to be a biological male in there? Speaking from experience, and having been around an incident in school where a homeless guy waas found hanging out in the girl's restroom, it is very alarming and can create fear. It's not like a person who is genuinely transgender has an expository bubble or something over them to say "hey ladies, I'm transgender, I don't have bad intentions" so that any females they encounter quickly understand the situation. Looking at the video, Lila clearly looks like a biological male (and it was very, umm, apparent in the skirt he was wearing). Do people honestly not see how that could be disconcerting for some females? I understand that females can assault other females too, but on average, it's more likely that females feel they can be overpowered by males, and it's a completely different dynamic. I would suspect that if a FTM transgender used a male restroom, most men would not have the fear that women do. These girls have known Lila as a male until now. It's not even just about Lila possibly assaulting anyone (again, I am NOT saying that will happen), or if she'll be "checking out" the girls (I don't really see a lot of females as uncomfortable sharing a locker room/restroom with lesbians, for example). I think it's unreasonable to flip the script now and expect them to just be comfortable with being in a private environment like that with someone who has a dick. I can understand that Lila wants to be able to fit in, but there are valid BIOLOGICAL and EMOTIONAL reasons why the biological females should have their own space. This is not a gender issue, in my view, it is a sex/biology issue. I sympathize with Lila, but let's be honest, she is different, she will never have the same concerns, needs and issues as bio-females. That's not necessarily a bad thing, we should be able to respect differences, but the fact remains. She has a right to dignity and respect, but so do her classmates, and I think this rush by some people to dismiss the rest of the girls' concerns as transphobia (as I have seen in some places) is very disconcerting. Particulary, her statement that her classmates are coming up with excuses to be bigots is unfair, to a large degree. I understand that some people in this situation probably are very bigoted, but she is demonstrating that she is not willing to try and accomodate or even listen to the valid concerns on the other side of the fence. Any possible solution should take both sides into account. Maybe it's time that there are more unisex and/or trans/third gender spaces. If gender is a social construct, surely we can make adjustments to include and create safe-havens for gender identities that don't match up with biological identities, right? Why not have specific spaces that cater to them and their different needs? If it's a question of privacy or becoming a target, well, as it is, going into a female bathroom now pretty much marks you as a target for people who are going to victimize someone based on sex or gender. That is an unfortunate part of the female experience that Lila will have to share for the foreseeable future.You had me disagreeing with everything until the last paragraph. I understand your point about girls and their 'girl power'/we-all-have-periods-and-Lila-won't point, but it a classic victimization of women tactic and a bit condescending to treat women like they need to be 'protected' from some phantom male phallus that Lila is in no way/shape/form gender identifying with. I'm not attacking you, but more accurately this notion that women/girls need to be 'protected' from uncomfortable situations. Why only women? Why aren't men/boys protected in the same way? Or transexuals? As I said, your last paragraph put you back on the right path with me. Let's not just consider 'WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE (FEMALE) CHILDREN!?'-- let's think about ALL children. What's the best solution for all genders (even trans-) involved? It's to allow the transgender kid the right to decide freely which shower she feels most comfortable being in, and she's already said that it's the female shower. It's should be case closed after that point, if the females are antsy about it, they have already shown the free speech and willpower to walk out of the classroom and/or lockerroom while Lila is using the facilities. They can continue to do so, or better yet have their parents withdraw them from the public school altogether. The point is, the females still have power in that situation, but everyone else seems to be content with taking away Lila's. She doesn't deserve to go through such a powerless scenario, and shame on anyone for trying to continue to make her a spectator in her own adolescence.
|
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
|
Post by trollrogue on Sept 5, 2015 3:14:40 GMT -5
This smacks to me a bit of the popular belief that 3rd wave feminists have effectively warped young girls' minds in North America into being entitled mean-spirited bullies to 'non-normals' aka non-conformist girls. The very idea that 'ewww she has a penis lets shame her' is a literal reverse-sexist hate culture if there ever was one. If feminism today were truly about gender equality, this would be a non-issue in a high school when it's the female locker room the trans-student is trying to gain access to. A half-century ago you'd think it would be the boys' locker room and male chauvinism causing problems, but the very idea that a female locker room is a 'sacred domain' that can't be sullied by a 'false woman' is so offensive in so many ways to me (a lifelong gender egalitarian) that I'm probably going to actively seek out the facebook/instagram hotspots of these Hillsboro HS students and flame them accordingly. Apologies for touching on a bit of politics in this post, my trigger in general is women who complain about being oppressed in society while at the same time oppressing people in society. This is a classic example. This post demonstrates why this topic is way too much of a mine field. Instead of these just being pubescent girls who are unsure about being asked to undress and shower in the same locker room as someone who was born a male and has male genitalia, they're either bigots who would be completely justified in being shamed and flamed by a grown adult and/or soldiers in some TERF war. There's no room for them just being insecure kids, and maybe weirded out by something that will never come out because we'll never know for sure what happened in that locker room. No one is saying that transgender people haven't had a lengthy history of horrific abuse and problems, but I have a hard time labeling the girls as bigots or claiming they're part of some huge radical feminist plot because they're being asked to deal with something that none of us likely had to deal with at 14 years of age, when our brain chemistry is completely out of whack and our world experiences are relatively limited. I just can't help but think "man, I'm really glad I don't have to make this decision" because I don't think society has done nearly enough to demystify TG issues for there to be a solution that doesn't make one group feel like they're being villified. So, here's the thing ( /HHH ) with these types of discussions, you must realize that any decision or consensus made when a conclusion finally comes about will be the de facto blueprints for EVERY other similar situation that comes up. It becomes the Rowe v Wade, or Brown v Board of Education that lawyers constantly gravitate towards for making their cases based on prior precedence. The way the school handles Lila's case will be the way ALL schools in America handle all transgender cases. To make an emotional, rather than logical, solution for this problem could spell disaster ( /Steiner ) for the LGBT teenaged-community for the next few decades-- or it could be the beginning of a new age of understanding and acceptance if handled correctly. Reducing this issue down to 'a bunch of insecure kids' who should be excused for being assholes because 'hey they're just kids' is pretty shortsighted. IMHO.
|
|
Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
Posts: 16,332
|
Post by Professor Chaos on Sept 5, 2015 4:59:44 GMT -5
I just fail to see why kids have to strip naked in front of a bunch of other kids and shower with them.
|
|
malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
|
Post by malys on Sept 5, 2015 5:25:20 GMT -5
You had me disagreeing with everything until the last paragraph. I understand your point about girls and their 'girl power'/we-all-have-periods-and-Lila-won't point, but it a classic victimization of women tactic and a bit condescending to treat women like they need to be 'protected' from some phantom male phallus that Lila is in no way/shape/form gender identifying with. I'm not attacking you, but more accurately this notion that women/girls need to be 'protected' from uncomfortable situations. Why only women? Why aren't men/boys protected in the same way? Or transexuals? As I said, your last paragraph put you back on the right path with me. Let's not just consider 'WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE (FEMALE) CHILDREN!?'-- let's think about ALL children. What's the best solution for all genders (even trans-) involved? It's to allow the transgender kid the right to decide freely which shower she feels most comfortable being in, and she's already said that it's the female shower. It's should be case closed after that point, if the females are antsy about it, they have already shown the free speech and willpower to walk out of the classroom and/or lockerroom while Lila is using the facilities. They can continue to do so, or better yet have their parents withdraw them from the public school altogether. The point is, the females still have power in that situation, but everyone else seems to be content with taking away Lila's. She doesn't deserve to go through such a powerless scenario, and shame on anyone for trying to continue to make her a spectator in her own adolescence. It is NOT condescending to address concerns that women themselves have voiced, and which a large percentage of women verifiably have negative experiences with. This is not like I'm saying "oh, poor girls shouldn't have to do math, their brains can't take it." There IS a verifiable problem with violence, harrassment and mistreatment by BIOLOGICAL MEN against biological women. Biological males are on average physically stronger than women, so a biological male in a restroom or any situation is much more likely to be capable of overpowering a biological female. If a chick ran up on a man in a restroom, she probably would get the worse end of it in most cases, unless the guy just didn't want to hit a woman. There is not an significant difference statistically in violence committed by MTF transgenders against women, vs. biological men against women. Most women don't fear men because they're told they should, they have experience as to why, or if not them, someone close to them that they witnessed going through the trauma. What's condescending here is telling them their concerns and experiences aren't real, it's just a narrative tactic (which you've done quite nicely here by reducing what I said to some 'girl power' rallying cry). Whether or not Lila identifies with phallus or not, it is NOT phantom, it is clearly visibly there, which was very apparent in that mini-skirt she was wearing in the video. BTW, had that been a biological girl showing off camel-toe, walking around braless, or in a miniskirt with no underwear (which looks to be so in Lila's case), she would have been sent home in a hot second. Yet another female experience that Lila does not seem to understand. We have heard nothing from the other girls about Lila's previous interactions with them. The news reports only interviewed her. But Lila does have pictures on her social media of her doing the tongue between fingers gesture, a derogatory gesture that is offensive and harrassive towards many females. For all we know, Lila's sum total behavior with these other females could have been a major contributor in them feeling uncomfortable, including sexual harrassment. But they're supposed to just unquestionaingly get with her program. Her statement that she doesn't believe for a second they're uncomfortable shows her unwillingness to compromise, but her classmates are supposed to just take her at her word and whim? I'm fine with the idea that men should be protected from violence. I think it's horrible that men who are abused and raped are not taken seriously but are too afraid to come forward. That is reinforced by this patriarchal set-up (geez, I never thought I'd find myself addressing this whole patriarchy issue, but this whole situation has brought it out clearer), the same set-up that puts women in the position they're at. It's really coming back to bite everyone in the ass. If biological men want to have their own safe spaces and restrooms that's fine too, I'm sure they have analogous reasons and needs to the biological females. And that's why I've said before that there should be safe space specifically for transgender, rather than sticking them in a pre-made solution that is not respecting the rights of others. In other countries and cultures there is often a third sex and/or gender recognized, which seems to work, so this should be investigated here as well. Again, this is not zero-sum, but Lila's definition of powerlessness seems to be that if it's not all her way, it's bigotry and that's that, even though the school has tried to make accomodations for her. That's not making a logical decision rather than emotional one either. It is unrealistic to expect that other females will be able to coordinate their schedules with Lila's to be comfortable. If she comes in and someone's showering and uncomfortable, she's already seen them, so no discomfort is prevented, and they can't always just leave the school district, sometimes depending on the community there might not be other nearby options. If Lila has supporters that want to join her in the unisex bathroom, they can. If this is to set a precedent, then I think that having specific trans-safe spaces and resources is a good precedent to set. Eroding biological female spaces and ignoring their concerns (which has already been happening on women's college campuses, can't perform "Vagina Monologues" because it's not trans-inclusive..."I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me," I guess) is not a good precedent to set. ETA: ALSO, question...Lila herself says she fears using the boys locker room, why might that be? Feel free to call her male classmates to action for not being accepting, or Lila for believing in a "narrative" about male violence. No one has said anything much about them to the degree that they're pointing accusatory fingers at the girls.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Sept 5, 2015 8:15:24 GMT -5
So, here's the thing ( /HHH ) with these types of discussions, you must realize that any decision or consensus made when a conclusion finally comes about will be the de facto blueprints for EVERY other similar situation that comes up. It becomes the Rowe v Wade, or Brown v Board of Education that lawyers constantly gravitate towards for making their cases based on prior precedence. The way the school handles Lila's case will be the way ALL schools in America handle all transgender cases. To make an emotional, rather than logical, solution for this problem could spell disaster ( /Steiner ) for the LGBT teenaged-community for the next few decades-- or it could be the beginning of a new age of understanding and acceptance if handled correctly. Reducing this issue down to 'a bunch of insecure kids' who should be excused for being assholes because 'hey they're just kids' is pretty shortsighted. IMHO. Not really, that's not how rights cases work. This school's decision will only affect every other school in the extent whoever loses may end up suing and may eventually make it to the Supreme Court, where that court, with whatever political makeup it has at the time, will decide whether they even have a right to make this decision and, if so, whether bathroom use qualifies as a situation where the Equal Protection Clause would protect transgender people. If the SC doesn't hear it, then at most it could affect other schools in the state if it makes its way through that state's court system. If the SC does hear it, it's decision wouldn't be directly related to the school's decision because individual decisions are not legal precedent, court cases are. That's why the school district lost in Brown v. Board, they had refused to integrate and the court overturned it, because board decisions aren't the same as precedent. Lawyers can't take anything this school decides and use it to try to force another school to change or institute a policy. So ultimately, this decision will affect Lila and the other girls in the locker room, and anyone following in that school until a legal decision is made. Otherwise, under your assertion, every school that has denied transgender rights to use the bathroom of their choice would also be legal precedent for lawyers, and that would probably fare against Lila. But other schools are not going to take this as binding precedent anymore than other states found themselves bound to follow Massachusettes lead on gay marriage. Lawyers will make their arguments based constitutional interpretation and how courts have handled similar situations (The same way interracial marriage was legal precedent cited for the gay marriage ruling), and maybe results of previous actions if they disprove one of the opposing lawyer's arguments (not the fact that they made a decision, but the long term results of that decision), not on the decision of any one school. And hell, Hillsboro isn't the first school to end up having to make this decision and schools still make different decisions, with some states having banned schools from barring transgender students from using different bathrooms from using their choice of bathroom while other boards still rule against TG students. The notion that this case will have far reaching consequences just doesn't really hold weight. Until a court says otherwise, this school still has the authority to make that decision. That will be the case until the law forces their hand, which is how social change tends to work. And even if what you said were 100 percent true, that doesn't justify some of the vitriol directed at these kids, or defend the notion that grown adults would be justified in harassing them for walking out. Acting shitty towards transgender people is bad, but the solution isn't to act shitty to pubescent girls.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 9:04:38 GMT -5
I see both sides, but it mainly reminds me of that great episode of South Park where Cartman got his own bathroom.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 10:29:33 GMT -5
Here's a weird idea: No more gender-seperate anything. All of us in there together, showering and pooping and changing clothes, as uneasy as it would feel.
It sounds crazy, but why did we decide to seperate in the first place? Were there just too many locker room/bathroom orgies and we had to decide we couldn't control ourselves? Was it so we can all hide our shame? Or keep a mystique about ourselves to the opposing sex?
I don't think it will ever happen on a large scale, at least not for a long time, but I feel like that is a direction we're moving in.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 10:34:07 GMT -5
Here's a weird idea: No more gender-seperate anything. As a trans person who doesn't identify with any gender at all, this would actually be welcome.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 10:39:46 GMT -5
Here's a weird idea: No more gender-seperate anything. As a trans person who doesn't identify with any gender at all, this would actually be welcome. On principle, I'd totally be for it. I think it makes the most sense, and it's fair. In practice, I would be so horrified.
|
|
kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
|
Post by kidglov3s on Sept 5, 2015 11:16:10 GMT -5
As a trans person who doesn't identify with any gender at all, this would actually be welcome. On principle, I'd totally be for it. I think it makes the most sense, and it's fair. In practice, I would be so horrified. Advantage: tumblr
|
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
|
Post by trollrogue on Sept 7, 2015 18:17:50 GMT -5
You had me disagreeing with everything until the last paragraph. I understand your point about girls and their 'girl power'/we-all-have-periods-and-Lila-won't point, but it a classic victimization of women tactic and a bit condescending to treat women like they need to be 'protected' from some phantom male phallus that Lila is in no way/shape/form gender identifying with. I'm not attacking you, but more accurately this notion that women/girls need to be 'protected' from uncomfortable situations. Why only women? Why aren't men/boys protected in the same way? Or transexuals? As I said, your last paragraph put you back on the right path with me. Let's not just consider 'WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE (FEMALE) CHILDREN!?'-- let's think about ALL children. What's the best solution for all genders (even trans-) involved? It's to allow the transgender kid the right to decide freely which shower she feels most comfortable being in, and she's already said that it's the female shower. It's should be case closed after that point, if the females are antsy about it, they have already shown the free speech and willpower to walk out of the classroom and/or lockerroom while Lila is using the facilities. They can continue to do so, or better yet have their parents withdraw them from the public school altogether. The point is, the females still have power in that situation, but everyone else seems to be content with taking away Lila's. She doesn't deserve to go through such a powerless scenario, and shame on anyone for trying to continue to make her a spectator in her own adolescence. It is NOT condescending to address concerns that women themselves have voiced, and which a large percentage of women verifiably have negative experiences with. This is not like I'm saying "oh, poor girls shouldn't have to do math, their brains can't take it." There IS a verifiable problem with violence, harrassment and mistreatment by BIOLOGICAL MEN against biological women. Biological males are on average physically stronger than women, so a biological male in a restroom or any situation is much more likely to be capable of overpowering a biological female. If a chick ran up on a man in a restroom, she probably would get the worse end of it in most cases, unless the guy just didn't want to hit a woman. There is not an significant difference statistically in violence committed by MTF transgenders against women, vs. biological men against women. Most women don't fear men because they're told they should, they have experience as to why, or if not them, someone close to them that they witnessed going through the trauma. What's condescending here is telling them their concerns and experiences aren't real, it's just a narrative tactic (which you've done quite nicely here by reducing what I said to some 'girl power' rallying cry). Whether or not Lila identifies with phallus or not, it is NOT phantom, it is clearly visibly there, which was very apparent in that mini-skirt she was wearing in the video. BTW, had that been a biological girl showing off camel-toe, walking around braless, or in a miniskirt with no underwear (which looks to be so in Lila's case), she would have been sent home in a hot second. Yet another female experience that Lila does not seem to understand. We have heard nothing from the other girls about Lila's previous interactions with them. The news reports only interviewed her. But Lila does have pictures on her social media of her doing the tongue between fingers gesture, a derogatory gesture that is offensive and harrassive towards many females. For all we know, Lila's sum total behavior with these other females could have been a major contributor in them feeling uncomfortable, including sexual harrassment. But they're supposed to just unquestionaingly get with her program. Her statement that she doesn't believe for a second they're uncomfortable shows her unwillingness to compromise, but her classmates are supposed to just take her at her word and whim? I'm fine with the idea that men should be protected from violence. I think it's horrible that men who are abused and raped are not taken seriously but are too afraid to come forward. That is reinforced by this patriarchal set-up (geez, I never thought I'd find myself addressing this whole patriarchy issue, but this whole situation has brought it out clearer), the same set-up that puts women in the position they're at. It's really coming back to bite everyone in the ass. If biological men want to have their own safe spaces and restrooms that's fine too, I'm sure they have analogous reasons and needs to the biological females. And that's why I've said before that there should be safe space specifically for transgender, rather than sticking them in a pre-made solution that is not respecting the rights of others. In other countries and cultures there is often a third sex and/or gender recognized, which seems to work, so this should be investigated here as well. Again, this is not zero-sum, but Lila's definition of powerlessness seems to be that if it's not all her way, it's bigotry and that's that, even though the school has tried to make accomodations for her. That's not making a logical decision rather than emotional one either. It is unrealistic to expect that other females will be able to coordinate their schedules with Lila's to be comfortable. If she comes in and someone's showering and uncomfortable, she's already seen them, so no discomfort is prevented, and they can't always just leave the school district, sometimes depending on the community there might not be other nearby options. If Lila has supporters that want to join her in the unisex bathroom, they can. If this is to set a precedent, then I think that having specific trans-safe spaces and resources is a good precedent to set. Eroding biological female spaces and ignoring their concerns (which has already been happening on women's college campuses, can't perform "Vagina Monologues" because it's not trans-inclusive..."I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me," I guess) is not a good precedent to set. ETA: ALSO, question...Lila herself says she fears using the boys locker room, why might that be? Feel free to call her male classmates to action for not being accepting, or Lila for believing in a "narrative" about male violence. No one has said anything much about them to the degree that they're pointing accusatory fingers at the girls. Again I'll caution my response with a comment saying I'm not attacking you, so in the future no need to be so defensive about my opinion. Yours is valid, yet so is mine-- neither is really better than the other but I will say that mine seems to have more of an egalitarian slant to it while yours singles out a woman's preferences over all other genders. If it's your opinion that women have more to worry about than men or transgenders in a school setting, fine-- but you should realize that flies in the face of equality. So a little fact for you-- men get raped more than women do. Yes-- the fact remains that men are mostly often the culprits in raping both women and men-- but it is a complete lie for you to say (as a fact) that women have more to worry about as far as a fear of being raped than men do. At least in the United States (where this story takes place. Here's the source for you: abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131113 ) The fact that you and others would freely worry about women more than men (who are raped/at risk more than women are as PROVEN by the source and several statistical evidence) just serves as yet another example of women being 'protected' more often than men due to some flawed notion that women need to be coddled by society more than other genders. This opinion is based on nothing more than emotional arguments, and for Lila (who as you yourself mention is biologically more of a man than a women, despite gender-identifying as a female) she not only has more statistically to fear from being a rape victim but she is also being shut out from feeling any peace of mind in the place she's forced to disrobe-- again if she got naked in front of other boys in the male lockerroom I think you would agree she would be much more likely to be sexually/violently assaulted by a boy than she would by a girl in the women's lockerroom. This is an issue of safety, firstmost. And secondly an issue of Lila feeling comfortable/safe in the girls' lockerroom. Despite your lengthy reply there wasn't much to counter my opinion that not banning her from the female lockerroom would be the best solution for all genders involved.
|
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
|
Post by trollrogue on Sept 7, 2015 18:23:14 GMT -5
So, here's the thing ( /HHH ) with these types of discussions, you must realize that any decision or consensus made when a conclusion finally comes about will be the de facto blueprints for EVERY other similar situation that comes up. It becomes the Rowe v Wade, or Brown v Board of Education that lawyers constantly gravitate towards for making their cases based on prior precedence. The way the school handles Lila's case will be the way ALL schools in America handle all transgender cases. To make an emotional, rather than logical, solution for this problem could spell disaster ( /Steiner ) for the LGBT teenaged-community for the next few decades-- or it could be the beginning of a new age of understanding and acceptance if handled correctly. Reducing this issue down to 'a bunch of insecure kids' who should be excused for being assholes because 'hey they're just kids' is pretty shortsighted. IMHO. Not really, that's not how rights cases work. This school's decision will only affect every other school in the extent whoever loses may end up suing and may eventually make it to the Supreme Court, where that court, with whatever political makeup it has at the time, will decide whether they even have a right to make this decision and, if so, whether bathroom use qualifies as a situation where the Equal Protection Clause would protect transgender people. If the SC doesn't hear it, then at most it could affect other schools in the state if it makes its way through that state's court system. If the SC does hear it, it's decision wouldn't be directly related to the school's decision because individual decisions are not legal precedent, court cases are. That's why the school district lost in Brown v. Board, they had refused to integrate and the court overturned it, because board decisions aren't the same as precedent. Lawyers can't take anything this school decides and use it to try to force another school to change or institute a policy. So ultimately, this decision will affect Lila and the other girls in the locker room, and anyone following in that school until a legal decision is made. Otherwise, under your assertion, every school that has denied transgender rights to use the bathroom of their choice would also be legal precedent for lawyers, and that would probably fare against Lila. But other schools are not going to take this as binding precedent anymore than other states found themselves bound to follow Massachusettes lead on gay marriage. Lawyers will make their arguments based constitutional interpretation and how courts have handled similar situations (The same way interracial marriage was legal precedent cited for the gay marriage ruling), and maybe results of previous actions if they disprove one of the opposing lawyer's arguments (not the fact that they made a decision, but the long term results of that decision), not on the decision of any one school. And hell, Hillsboro isn't the first school to end up having to make this decision and schools still make different decisions, with some states having banned schools from barring transgender students from using different bathrooms from using their choice of bathroom while other boards still rule against TG students. The notion that this case will have far reaching consequences just doesn't really hold weight. Until a court says otherwise, this school still has the authority to make that decision. That will be the case until the law forces their hand, which is how social change tends to work. And even if what you said were 100 percent true, that doesn't justify some of the vitriol directed at these kids, or defend the notion that grown adults would be justified in harassing them for walking out. Acting shitty towards transgender people is bad, but the solution isn't to act shitty to pubescent girls. Pubescent girls who bully 'non-pretty'/'non-popular'/etc. girls are the last people on Earth that need a 'defender' IMHO. But I see your point and agree about the SC precedence. We'll agree to disagree about serving civil disobedience to girls who feel like it's their right to walk out of public school to shame a transgender student because it's the "cool" thing to do.
|
|
malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
|
Post by malys on Sept 7, 2015 18:43:20 GMT -5
Again I'll caution my response with a comment saying I'm not attacking you, so in the future no need to be so defensive about my opinion. Yours is valid, yet so is mine-- neither is really better than the other but I will say that mine seems to have more of an egalitarian slant to it while yours singles out a woman's preferences over all other genders. If it's your opinion that women have more to worry about than men or transgenders in a school setting, fine-- but you should realize that flies in the face of equality. So a little fact for you-- men get raped more than women do. Yes-- the fact remains that men are mostly often the culprits in raping both women and men-- but it is a complete lie for you to say (as a fact) that women have more to worry about as far as a fear of being raped than men do. At least in the United States (where this story takes place. Here's the source for you: abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131113 ) The fact that you and others would freely worry about women more than men (who are raped/at risk more than women are as PROVEN by the source and several statistical evidence) just serves as yet another example of women being 'protected' more often than men due to some flawed notion that women need to be coddled by society more than other genders. This opinion is based on nothing more than emotional arguments, and for Lila (who as you yourself mention is biologically more of a man than a women, despite gender-identifying as a female) she not only has more statistically to fear from being a rape victim but she is also being shut out from feeling any peace of mind in the place she's forced to disrobe-- again if she got naked in front of other boys in the male lockerroom I think you would agree she would be much more likely to be sexually/violently assaulted by a boy than she would by a girl in the women's lockerroom. This is an issue of safety, firstmost. And secondly an issue of Lila feeling comfortable/safe in the girls' lockerroom. Despite your lengthy reply there wasn't much to counter my opinion that not banning her from the female lockerroom would be the best solution for all genders involved. I'm not being defensive by calling out condescension, and I am not being emotional; I understand you are not attacking me personally, I am calling it like I see it. I am for equality when differences are not relevant. But you have admitted that it's biological men who are most often the culprits, so women are more likely to be raped by men, right? That's a valid reason for them to need their own space based on biological SEX and not GENDER. Lila is still a biological male, and this is also what I was saying before about how the males are not being held accountable for placing Lila in a dangerous situation. I will also reiterate, I think more should be done to address male rape and abuse victims. It is absolutely unacceptable that men are not taken seriously when they report that they are abused. When women do rape men (like when those teachers have sex with young boys), I think it's disgusting how the response is "oh, I wish my hot teacher had raped me when I was a student" and garbage like that. I've even seen women run roughshod over fathers in child custody cases, I know many men get completely screwed over in those cases, and you're right, it's not fair that biological males don't get taken seriously or get the help/justice they need. Believe me, I have a lot of issues and differences with mainstream feminism myself, and have tended to distance myself from it in a lot of cases. If you have ways to address those issues that men have, I'm right on board with you and will join that team, because boys and men deserve protection and justice too. But the fact remains, since biological males are more inclined to certain types of violence, then it is logical that biological females will want their space separate from biological males, including Lila. This is a SEX issue, not GENDER. I don't see how you've proven that the biological girls are not justified in their feelings, when you've even admitted that they have more to fear from biological males.
|
|
malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
|
Post by malys on Sept 7, 2015 18:48:36 GMT -5
Pubescent girls who bully 'non-pretty'/'non-popular'/etc. girls are the last people on Earth that need a 'defender' IMHO. But I see your point and agree about the SC precedence. We'll agree to disagree about serving civil disobedience to girls who feel like it's their right to walk out of public school to shame a transgender student because it's the "cool" thing to do. Bullying based on looks and popularity is not the same thing as threat of violence by someone who is biologically prone to be stronger and more violent. I know that teenage girls can be shitty to each other, but this is not the same thing. And no one said that the girls are trying to shame Lila or be "cool." They are standing up for their own rights. I know there are some people who are truly bigoted who might disagree with Lila's existence, but I have seen no evidence of them objecting to Lila as a person. If they had said something like transgender people are disgusting, I don't want to go to school with them, that would be one thing, and that would be shaming and bigotry. But this is a case where biological differences are relevant.
|
|
FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,434
|
Post by FinalGwen on Sept 7, 2015 19:00:15 GMT -5
Find me documentation that trans females are responsible for a similar level of rape/violence to cis men. Or cis women, for that matter. Find me the cases of trans women attacking people in bathrooms. There have been people trying to say it over and over with shared bathrooms/toilets, but they've never been able to come up with a single drop of evidence. And until you do, painting trans women as rapists/violent is transphobia in action.
|
|
malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
|
Post by malys on Sept 7, 2015 19:05:39 GMT -5
Find me documentation that trans females are responsible for a similar level of rape/violence to cis men. Or cis women, for that matter. Find me the cases of trans women attacking people in bathrooms. There have been people trying to say it over and over with shared bathrooms/toilets, but they've never been able to come up with a single drop of evidence. And until you do, painting trans women as rapists/violent is transphobia in action. HereHereMurderer of females wants to be reassigned to women's prison
|
|