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Post by Cela on Sept 2, 2015 12:04:23 GMT -5
It's a culture war and it's not surprising that this issue would become one. I slip-up and use the wrong pronouns sometimes out of habit, but I am supportive of the community. And bear in mind, very recently for the general public, it was considered gender identity disorder. Still is by many.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Sept 2, 2015 12:12:24 GMT -5
Cool, put the woman in with the men. That's clearly the sensible option. A woman showering with women? hell no. Leave her in the vunerable position of being in with a bunch of jocks. Dumb idiots. Yep because all men/jocks are rapists. What about the girls whom might be uncomfortable showering/undressing in front of someone who still has a penis? I was more talking about violent bigots, but whatever. Also to the idiots among women, theyy do realise there's likely to be bi girls and lesbians in their midst already? All this girl wants to do is get a damn shower in peace.
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Post by MC Blowfish on Sept 2, 2015 12:14:07 GMT -5
I can see it from both sides. I'd be concerned if I had a daughter and this happened. More than likely it's really not an issue. I would still feel uncomfortable.
I read above that this person has declined a separate restroom. Is their a reason why?
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Sept 2, 2015 12:19:52 GMT -5
I read above that this person has declined a separate restroom. Is their a reason why? Doesn't want to feel like a freak who has a separate restroom? Wants to be treated like a regular person? I don't want to play psychologist, but I imagine that's part of the reason.
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Post by MC Blowfish on Sept 2, 2015 12:26:21 GMT -5
I read above that this person has declined a separate restroom. Is their a reason why? Doesn't want to feel like a freak who has a separate restroom? Wants to be treated like a regular person? I don't want to play psychologist, but I imagine that's part of the reason. I have no clue. I'm just asking to find out. This is a very different situation and one that we really haven't had to deal with.
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Post by Muskrat on Sept 2, 2015 12:30:25 GMT -5
I read above that this person has declined a separate restroom. Is their a reason why? Because it's 2015 in a supposedly socially advanced country and she shouldn't f***ing have to. There is no reasonable argument against her, it's no different then not allowing a gay guy to change/shower with other guys because some of the kids and parents are "worried that fag kid is gonna be staring at/grabbing other kids dicks".
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Post by MC Blowfish on Sept 2, 2015 12:32:16 GMT -5
I read above that this person has declined a separate restroom. Is their a reason why? Because it's 2015 in a supposedly socially advanced country and she shouldn't f***ing have to. There is no reasonable argument against her, it's no different then not allowing a gay guy to change/shower with other guys because some of the kids and parents are "worried that fag kid is gonna be staring at/grabbing other kids dicks". No need to rip my head off! I asked a question. I wasn't judging. I was just asking. Calm the f*** down!
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Post by Cela on Sept 2, 2015 12:34:39 GMT -5
People, it's been a good thread. Please keep a level head and don't get it locked.
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Post by Muskrat on Sept 2, 2015 12:36:06 GMT -5
Because it's 2015 in a supposedly socially advanced country and she shouldn't f***ing have to. There is no reasonable argument against her, it's no different then not allowing a gay guy to change/shower with other guys because some of the kids and parents are "worried that fag kid is gonna be staring at/grabbing other kids dicks". No need to rip my head off! I asked a question. I wasn't judging. I was just asking. Calm the f*** down! The hostility wasn't directed at you man, sorry that it came off that way. Been following this story since it broke, and all hostility is directed at the bigots causing this and the bigots allowing it to happen. It was really more of a soapbox rant than anything. Really sorry it came off that I was yelling at you.
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Post by MC Blowfish on Sept 2, 2015 12:40:17 GMT -5
No need to rip my head off! I asked a question. I wasn't judging. I was just asking. Calm the f*** down! The hostility wasn't directed at you man, sorry that it came off that way. Been following this story since it broke, and all hostility is directed at the bigots causing this and the bigots allowing it to happen. It was really more of a soapbox rant than anything. Really sorry it came off that I was yelling at you. Ok no problem at all. It's cool. I understand completely. Like I said, I wasn't sure. I'm not following too closely and was just curious.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 2, 2015 12:41:12 GMT -5
Those girls are probably more at risk of dying by falling down the stairs at home than being assaulted by a transgendered person.
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Burst
El Dandy
*inarticulate squawking*
Posts: 8,584
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Post by Burst on Sept 2, 2015 12:42:46 GMT -5
It's no different then not allowing a gay guy to change/shower with other guys because some of the kids and parents are "worried that fag kid is gonna be staring at/grabbing other kids dicks". The sad part is that this exact thing almost happened when I was in high school circa ten years ago, down to the same argument with the same slurs. Because we had exactly one dude in the entire school full of rednecks and small town folk who, in hindsight, was brave enough to carry himself in an obviously gay way (he didn't 'officially' come out until we graduated, but pretty much everyone knew). I still shudder at some of the things I overheard said about him back then.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Sept 2, 2015 12:43:08 GMT -5
There was a case of this a few years ago, except the student was 7 years old. The school offered a private bathroom but the parents insisted she be able to use the girl's bathroom even though she had a penis. I miss when these stories had colorful deranged side characters. "Her use of the communal bathroom was uneventful until one boy, at the direction of his legal guardian – his grandfather – followed Nicole into the girls’ bathroom twice, arguing that he, too, was entitled to use it." "The girl (given the pseudonym “Susan Doe” in court) used the girls’ restroom at school without event until, at the beginning of the fifth grade, a male student—at the instigation of his grandfather—followed Susan into the restroom. The grandfather apparently told his grandson that Susan was a boy and should not be allowed to use the girls’ restroom. To make his point, the grandfather directed his grandson to use the girls’ restroom as long as Susan used it." "Paul Melanson found out his grandson’s school was allowing another boy(sic) to use the girl’s restroom, and decided that wasn’t right. He told his grandson to follow the other boy(sic) into the girl’s restroom whenever he saw the other boy(sic) doing it, and when he did, the boy was confronted by school officials and warned against such behavior, and the grandfather was confronted by police." "Paul Melanson, grandfather of the boy accused of harassing the transgender student, also filed a complaint with the Maine Human Rights Commission, saying that not allowing his grandson to use the girls bathroom or the faculty bathroom as the other child did was a violation of his grandson’s right to public accommodation under the Maine Human Rights Act." "Melanson had given his grandson permission to use the girls bathroom as long as the transgender student was doing so, according to the report. [. . .] "It ticks me right off that you're letting a kid run the whole system," he said." "Melanson was visited by the police this afternoon. The police urged him not to use his grandson as a pawn in this fight. Melanson said that he would go into the girl's bathroom himself, but he'd be arrested as a pervert. The feisty grandfather reports that his grandson can make these decisions for himself when he comes of age, but until then he'll be pleased to help him along." Probably a picture of that crazy grandpa EDIT: Real grandpa (I like mine better)
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Sept 2, 2015 12:52:52 GMT -5
I believe she should be allowed to shower with women because that is her identity and we ought to support the comfort of people from historically marginalized groups first and foremost although I completely understand the discomfort by some. I am not going to lie and say that showering with gay guys at my high school didnt' made me feel uncomfortable at first, but luckily I was mature enough to overcome that. I am more appalled at the effort people are putting into protesting this girl. With all of the issues plaguing our school systems these days from underfunding to standardized tests to horrid sex education practices, you decide to walk out on a transgender student trying to shower where she feels most comfortable? Just seems like an odd set of priorities.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Sept 2, 2015 12:54:55 GMT -5
I know what side I fall on this. All I know is, I don't think I ever want to step foot in the greater St. Louis area in my lifetime. Dude, that f***ing hurts. There's still a lot of good things and good people here amongst the bad headlines and the bullshit. Don't feel bad, there's a lot of places in America and the world that I don't ever want to step foot in. Hell, I live in one of those places.
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
Too Salty
Watching you.
Posts: 11,087
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Post by wisdomwizard on Sept 2, 2015 13:02:25 GMT -5
The issue is a little complicated. I think they should just let her in the shower, as they don't have to give her her own special bathroom. I can see why some of these girls would be uncomfortable though. It takes getting used to. Unfortunately, they've already had students walk out because how dare one transgendered student want equal rights with the toilet. I can't imagine having to use her own bathroom making her feel any worse at this point. Dude, that f***ing hurts. There's still a lot of good things and good people here amongst the bad headlines and the bullshit. Don't feel bad, there's a lot of places in America and the world that I don't ever want to step foot in. Hell, I live in one of those places.
Forget America, there's nowhere you can go anywhere on the planet where there won't be any bad people. A few stories the media decides to roll with doesn't mean reasonable people don't live there.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 2, 2015 13:20:45 GMT -5
I sympathize with the student, but I think biological girls/females have a right to their own space, especially at that age. They're dealing with changes and feelings that Lila never will experience; periods, hormone changes, things like that. Lila has valid issues too, but her experience is going to be different. Periods and such can be embarassing and traumatizing as it is, and I can see how biological females would not be comfortable being around someone who is never going to understand that experience. And yes, I know not all biological females have periods, or the exact same experience, but it's still within the same biological context (worrying about not having a period or certain changes is a bio-female experience).
Also, unfortunately for a lot of biological females, male "equipment" can be triggering and uncomfortable. What if some of the girls had been previously assaulted or harassed, and the thought of having to view or change/shower around dick, without their consent, is awkward or even traumatic for them? I am not saying that Lila is going to assault anyone or anything like that, but for a lot of biological females, a female restroom is one of the few places where they can expect a safe-haven from the things that a lot of biological women are subjected to. In a broader context outside of this particular case, do you guys understand how unsettling it is a for a female to walk into a women's restroom and see what appears to be a biological male in there? Speaking from experience, and having been around an incident in school where a homeless guy waas found hanging out in the girl's restroom, it is very alarming and can create fear. It's not like a person who is genuinely transgender has an expository bubble or something over them to say "hey ladies, I'm transgender, I don't have bad intentions" so that any females they encounter quickly understand the situation. Looking at the video, Lila clearly looks like a biological male (and it was very, umm, apparent in the skirt he was wearing). Do people honestly not see how that could be disconcerting for some females?
I understand that females can assault other females too, but on average, it's more likely that females feel they can be overpowered by males, and it's a completely different dynamic. I would suspect that if a FTM transgender used a male restroom, most men would not have the fear that women do.
These girls have known Lila as a male until now. It's not even just about Lila possibly assaulting anyone (again, I am NOT saying that will happen), or if she'll be "checking out" the girls (I don't really see a lot of females as uncomfortable sharing a locker room/restroom with lesbians, for example). I think it's unreasonable to flip the script now and expect them to just be comfortable with being in a private environment like that with someone who has a dick.
I can understand that Lila wants to be able to fit in, but there are valid BIOLOGICAL and EMOTIONAL reasons why the biological females should have their own space. This is not a gender issue, in my view, it is a sex/biology issue. I sympathize with Lila, but let's be honest, she is different, she will never have the same concerns, needs and issues as bio-females. That's not necessarily a bad thing, we should be able to respect differences, but the fact remains. She has a right to dignity and respect, but so do her classmates, and I think this rush by some people to dismiss the rest of the girls' concerns as transphobia (as I have seen in some places) is very disconcerting. Particulary, her statement that her classmates are coming up with excuses to be bigots is unfair, to a large degree. I understand that some people in this situation probably are very bigoted, but she is demonstrating that she is not willing to try and accomodate or even listen to the valid concerns on the other side of the fence.
Any possible solution should take both sides into account. Maybe it's time that there are more unisex and/or trans/third gender spaces. If gender is a social construct, surely we can make adjustments to include and create safe-havens for gender identities that don't match up with biological identities, right? Why not have specific spaces that cater to them and their different needs? If it's a question of privacy or becoming a target, well, as it is, going into a female bathroom now pretty much marks you as a target for people who are going to victimize someone based on sex or gender. That is an unfortunate part of the female experience that Lila will have to share for the foreseeable future.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,432
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 2, 2015 13:39:39 GMT -5
Wrapping it up in TERF terms like "biological" doesn't make it any less obvious that you're treating her as male and ignoring her actual gender. Whether or not you think she passes is beside the f***ing point.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Sept 2, 2015 13:40:57 GMT -5
TERF?
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Sept 2, 2015 13:43:01 GMT -5
Google shows the result as "trans exclusionary radical feminist"
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