Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,161
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 13, 2016 11:41:46 GMT -5
Jeez, this place is filled with people complaining about stuff. I make one thread about what I see as a flaw in the performance of a guy who I like and I'm accused of turning on him because he became champion. Not to mention those smarmy "Yeah, how dare X!" shitposts that are written literally exactly the same time, every time, in some misguided attempt to stem the tide and shut down any contrary opinions no matter how they're put. One of my biggest pet peeves. They're so f***ing corny. EDIT: I want everyone to man up and say what they mean and mean what they say. It's that simple. Just shoot straight. Don't hide behind irony and sarcasm. If you disagree, handle it like an adult. Have an actual conversation or debate. If you literally cannot handle a different opinion without responding with something that amounts to little more than a shitpost that contributes absolutely nothing to the topic other than shitting on it...just don't do it. Move on. I have become increasingly irritated by this. It's the condescension that's the worst. The idea that any contrary opinion either : -Constitutes Hypocrisy or -Is a Disingenuous Cry For Attention is getting annoying, especially when the attempts to shut them down gets needlessly aggressive (the "Where are all the people who disagreed with me now? Say something. No one? Yeah, that's what I thought." type of stuff). There are a few other styles of trying to shut people down that bother me too; but I've already went on enough of a tangent and don't want to derail the thread even further.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Sept 13, 2016 11:47:09 GMT -5
So it's Owen's fault that the other people are idiots and do dumb shit or have points against them he can point out? I mean he's a heel, why wouldn't he exploit things that have happened to them or things they have done? This seems like a stretch to me. In the long run it's just going to hurt Owens. The best quote I've ever read about mic work, and I can't recall who said it, is that if you tear someone down and then wrestle them: If you win then what's the big deal, you beat a nobody who sucked anyway. If you lose then you just lost to that guy who sucked so you must suck more. Basically you should build up your opponent as the best thing since sliced bread so that if you lose at least he's over and if you win then you just beat this guy who was incredible. I'm sorry but that's not always how things play out in movies or real life sports, I've seen plenty of fights where someone talked them down like they were nothing and were either upset or proven totally right. I like it better when a heel uses facts, small facts where he is right, or oversights. Exaggerations are better than outright lies I feel, unless the story is that he's delusional. so you can at least understand and relate to why he'd say that or feel that way. If Kevin Owen is out there saying that he was handcuffed and he still won, that's a stupid pathetic lie. He comes off as dumb. Now if he Exaggerates and says he might as well have handcuffed that's a different matter. Before anyone responds, please be aware I have a long list of times where the heel ran down his opponent and either was upset or just barely won and it helped both guys. It's a very long list and I am itching to use it. Very very long. Not just in wrestling, in media as well. The result doesn't matter as long as there's a story behind it. Even HHH/Booker T you could have had HHH win, with a proper story told through the match and afterwards. Obviously they messed it all up instead.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,161
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 13, 2016 11:48:36 GMT -5
So it's Owen's fault that the other people are idiots and do dumb shit or have points against them he can point out? I mean he's a heel, why wouldn't he exploit things that have happened to them or things they have done? This seems like a stretch to me. In the long run it's just going to hurt Owens. The best quote I've ever read about mic work, and I can't recall who said it, is that if you tear someone down and then wrestle them: If you win then what's the big deal, you beat a nobody who sucked anyway. If you lose then you just lost to that guy who sucked so you must suck more. Basically you should build up your opponent as the best thing since sliced bread so that if you lose at least he's over and if you win then you just beat this guy who was incredible. The problem with that (even though it's correct in abstract) is that we've been shown repeatedly that wins and losses don't matter in WWE (50/50 booking, people on losing streaks being given title shots or #1 contender matches); so in the end, the way you "win" with a WWE crowd is getting that "mic drop" moment, because it's the only effective way to hurt your opponent's standing now. It's an important enough thing now that when somebody gets it, WWE should basically play the clip of casual insult guy leaning smugly into the whooping crowd while that other guy runs his hands down his face in front of the camera.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Sept 13, 2016 12:16:13 GMT -5
Gotta agree. If you are gonna say something like this, the babyface has to have something to retort with or they come off as a geek. I love Owens but everybody isn't John Cena. Not everybody can think fast on their feet.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Sept 13, 2016 12:18:05 GMT -5
Jeez, this place is filled with people complaining about stuff. I make one thread about what I see as a flaw in the performance of a guy who I like and I'm accused of turning on him because he became champion. Not to mention those smarmy "Yeah, how dare X!" shitposts that are written literally exactly the same time, every time, in some misguided attempt to stem the tide and shut down any contrary opinions no matter how they're put. One of my biggest pet peeves. They're so f***ing corny. EDIT: I want everyone to man up and say what they mean and mean what they say. It's that simple. Just shoot straight. Don't hide behind irony and sarcasm. If you disagree, handle it like an adult. Have an actual conversation or debate. If you literally cannot handle a different opinion without responding with something that amounts to little more than a shitpost that contributes absolutely nothing to the topic other than shitting on it...just don't do it. Move on. I have become increasingly irritated by this. I've said it before, people get absurdly defensive about stuff they like on here. It'd be comical if it didn't happen so much and people weren't so adamant that wasn't the case.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Sept 13, 2016 12:39:56 GMT -5
The thing is, if a face wants to be savage right back...there's easy ammo. Just look at the guy.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,961
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Post by Sephiroth on Sept 13, 2016 12:58:19 GMT -5
That promo can work great if Rollins goes full face; it can be as much about his quest for redemption for past wrong doings as it is him chasing the title.
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Post by JTG Fan on Sept 13, 2016 13:02:33 GMT -5
The thing is, if a face wants to be savage right back...there's easy ammo. Just look at the guy. Owens: Steph, you're getting a little fat around the old thighs! Triple H: Kevin! Owens: You too, Hunter! Stephanie: Oh, knock it off, Kevin; you're the fattest one in the car! Owens: [shocked] You didn't have to tell it like it is, Stephanie!
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,658
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Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 13, 2016 13:02:52 GMT -5
I don't know what promos are specifically being referenced here, cuz I've missed a couple of weeks, but as long as you stay away from the shooty "you can't wrestle" crap, then no he doesn't. They need to get edgier. Not in a sense of swearing or saying gross out stuff, but these guys are supposed to hate each other (or at the very least want to fight each other) Get MEAN! Some of the stuff I laugh at the hardest on the old Attitude Era stuff is when guys are plain mean to each other. When Steve Austin wanted a rematch with Kane he told Paul Bearer that since Kane is too stupid to speak that Paul should spit out that damn cupcake and give him and answer! One of my favorite Rock moments is when Triple H had his famous "I'm the f***in Game" promo with JR and Rock comes out and says "you come out here and cry like a little baby because they wouldn't let you say goodbye to your Roody-poo friends". Stuff like that. Stop being so civil to each other. It's f***in wrestling!!
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Sept 13, 2016 13:10:14 GMT -5
motherf***er gonna be tearing down the bank to make more room for all those sweet greenbacks, that he'll then have to exchange into Canadian at a reasonable rate
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Perfect Timing
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 4,869
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Post by Perfect Timing on Sept 13, 2016 13:13:12 GMT -5
Just tone it down a tad, big man. I wouldn't exactly call him a big man. Anyway if he needs to tone down something it's his sarcasm. Sometimes he's too jokey jokey when he should just be a blunt,vile no nonsense heel. I don't want him to end up like a heel version of Dolph Ziggler.
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Doctor Of Style
King Koopa
Well, first they love me, and then they don't. Sometimes they do it, and sometimes they won't.
Posts: 12,104
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Sept 13, 2016 14:07:02 GMT -5
Kevin Owens: Tears down opponents, tears up buffets.
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Post by BorneAgain on Sept 13, 2016 15:39:45 GMT -5
A lot of this stuff is relative to how strong the babyface is and the deliver of how they're tearing people down. Owen's stuff can be a little too on the nose, but if there's a babyface with enough fire and mic ability to hit him back, then it just creates a good energy for the promo.
When you don't have babyfaces that are presented well enough or aren't given good written material the program will inevitably suffer. Its one of the things that frustrated me about Punk's heel WWE title run, where there never seemed to be a popular face that was given the fiery rebuttal promo against him ; pointing out his deception about the Shield, selling out of his principals in joining Heyman, and mocking the fact that the "Best in the World" needs help to win his matches.
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JCBaggee
Hank Scorpio
Writer, streamer. I used to write for CBR but then they fired everyone who cared about their writers
Posts: 6,787
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Post by JCBaggee on Sept 13, 2016 15:47:39 GMT -5
People don't hate Trips and Steph for pointing out other people's flaws. They hate them for politicking/booking themselves to point out those flaws and go over, regardless of the feud.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Sept 13, 2016 15:57:26 GMT -5
People don't hate Trips and Steph for pointing out other people's flaws. They hate them for politicking/booking themselves to point out those flaws and go over, regardless of the feud. That's the thing... Heel can say whatever, it doesn't mean shit if the babyface proves them wrong. Problem with most of those feuds is that it never reached that conclusion. My only issue is when the heel noticeably cheats to beat the babyface and that somehow still proves them right.
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Post by Bear Skin Rug on Sept 13, 2016 16:24:32 GMT -5
Huge fan of Big Kev and this is my biggest problem with him. You could argue ROH Davey was a lost cause, but Steen/Owens totally made himself a babyface with those comments. Even more annoying since he's so good at making other guys look good in matches. I'm kind of surprised, because when he did his 'take over commentary' thing not long ago, he did a great job putting everyone in the IC division over while still playing his character. There was that Miz vs. Cesaro match where the winner would face Owens and bragged about beating either guy, acting like he could care less who won. Then when the nearfalls started he was muttering "C'mon Miz...c'mon Mike" betraying his fear of Cesaro. It was so great; why can't he always do that?
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,161
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 13, 2016 17:07:38 GMT -5
A lot of this stuff is relative to how strong the babyface is and the deliver of how they're tearing people down. Owen's stuff can be a little too on the nose, but if there's a babyface with enough fire and mic ability to hit him back, then it just creates a good energy for the promo. When you don't have babyfaces that are presented well enough or aren't given good written material the program will inevitably suffer. Its one of the things that frustrated me about Punk's heel WWE title run, where there never seemed to be a popular face that was given the fiery rebuttal promo against him ; pointing out his deception about the Shield, selling out of his principals in joining Heyman, and mocking the fact that the "Best in the World" needs help to win his matches. For one, Punk pretty much always had the "YOU'RE A DRUGGIE/YOU'RE A DRUNK!" trump card in his back pocket to play, no matter what anybody else said.
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canal
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,173
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Post by canal on Sept 13, 2016 17:28:54 GMT -5
I think he has a tendency to do this. I also think it's been heavily reigned in by WWE, and the stuff he says now is not on the level of hurting anyone's credibility. Pointing out Rollins' losses without mentioning his clean title win is just a heel being disingenuous and insulting. Those are 2 of Owens' major traits.
All heels aren't the same. All heels aren't the ones that build up their opponent, or be the one who thinks he's right, or be the most evil SOB ever. In the end, it's about entertaining the crowd. Kevin Owens does that while being a morally repugnant scumbag. Unless he has some kind of free reign that others don't have, maybe others need to work on being on his level from a verbal/character standpoint in order to entertain the crowd even more, rather than dumb down what Owens does.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 13, 2016 18:15:29 GMT -5
I think he has a tendency to do this. I also think it's been heavily reigned in by WWE, and the stuff he says now is not on the level of hurting anyone's credibility. Pointing out Rollins' losses without mentioning his clean title win is just a heel being disingenuous and insulting. Those are 2 of Owens' major traits. All heels aren't the same. All heels aren't the ones that build up their opponent, or be the one who thinks he's right, or be the most evil SOB ever. In the end, it's about entertaining the crowd. Kevin Owens does that while being a morally repugnant scumbag. Unless he has some kind of free reign that others don't have, maybe others need to work on being on his level from a verbal/character standpoint in order to entertain the crowd even more, rather than dumb down what Owens does. I don't think that's fair to the baby face character. Yes, every performer should try to elevate their persona and mic skill, but in the meantime I think the heel SHOULD dumb themselves down if their opponent isn't connecting as well with the crowd. They're not there to be liked, even if they have a significant fan base. Owens making his arguments more foolish wouldn't be that big a disservice to him. Besides, isn't wrestling supposed to be broad and forgo nuance?
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Post by Heinz Doofenschmirtz on Sept 13, 2016 18:16:25 GMT -5
I am prefacing this with the admission that I have my prejudices against Owens because of his accent. One of my best friends growing up had a horribly abusive father. His dad was the equivalent of a Quebecois hick. His accent was very similar to Owens so I have a tough time getting passed that.
But, yes, I agree with the OP in theory but I don't think Owens is doing it on purpose. I think he's going for a Bubba Ray Dudley kinda character but missing some of the nuance of Bubba Ray. I think he's gonna get there but for right now I think he's too far into Rock territory.
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