Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
|
Post by Reflecto on Sept 14, 2016 19:08:46 GMT -5
To elaborate a little on my previous point, and it goes for other guys, not just Kevin in this instance, who normally I think does a great job balancing being a cutting heel and a believable dick that often even other heels detest. We know the show is fake, obviously, the vast majority of fans do. We also know something like House is fake. If they had Omar Epps began an episode of House saying that he felt, for the purposes of this example, that Hugh Laurie was overpayed or underqualified for his part, and that the show should follow him, and that he's English, of all things!!, would that translate into an exciting shakeup for the show that fans loved? Probably not, at least once shock value wore off. In addition to completely shattering the suspension of disbelief (Which House would do in spades later, anyway), it'd be gimmicky, and it wouldn't result in anything, because the show would remain House and the main character would continue to be Hugh Laurie, just as Roman, Cena, or whatever whipping boy for smarks would continue to be a featured part of the program. It's a whole lot of tease with zero payoff, and diminishing returns to boot. The problem, however, is that the issue isn't just someone like Owens saying someone "can't wrestle"- but rather (and it's been this way since Cena/HHH at Mania 22), Roman/Cena/whipping boy or girl for smarks are too wimpy to really respond to that. It used to be in wrestling that the old-school claim of "You can't wrestle" was a perfectly cromulent insult by a heel to make...directly because the face's response would usually be "Maybe I can't- but it's a good thing we ain't gonna wrestle out there, this is going to be a FIGHT, and in a fight, I can kick your ass any day of the week!"...but that response has just gone by the wayside for some reason. I've said it a longer way but I'll say it a shorter way now, not nessesarily discussing the topic just some of the points raised in the thread; It's not the fault of kayfabe dying for the change in how wrestling builds are, it's the fault of WWE and other companies to not try and build a new version of kayfabe from the ashes and instead resorting to "HEY, YOU READ THIS ON MELTZER?! HERE IT IS IN TV FORM BECAUSE F*** SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF!" We know it's a TV show. Instead of repeatedly telling us that, build a fictional universe that you can control instead of sometimes acting like we have to listen to The Bryan and Vinny Show to get more context. The big problem with that, however, is the fact that WWE DID try to develop a new version of kayfabe from the ashes, but the fans flat-out refused it and rioted by them describing it when Stephanie McMahon described Rock/Cena's feud concept as "Team Edward/Team Jacob", with the fans basically saying "EEEEEEEEEEWWWWW. TWILIGHT? ICK." This despite the fact that going past the name, Team Edward/Team Jacob IS basically the way to do a new version of kayfabe, because it goes from "this person is good and a hero and does everything right. They're fighting this person, who is pure evil", to "Here's the two people fighting. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. Now- who's side are YOU ON?"- which is basically what people would want for a new kayfabe.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 14, 2016 20:01:26 GMT -5
To elaborate a little on my previous point, and it goes for other guys, not just Kevin in this instance, who normally I think does a great job balancing being a cutting heel and a believable dick that often even other heels detest. We know the show is fake, obviously, the vast majority of fans do. We also know something like House is fake. If they had Omar Epps began an episode of House saying that he felt, for the purposes of this example, that Hugh Laurie was overpayed or underqualified for his part, and that the show should follow him, and that he's English, of all things!!, would that translate into an exciting shakeup for the show that fans loved? Probably not, at least once shock value wore off. In addition to completely shattering the suspension of disbelief (Which House would do in spades later, anyway), it'd be gimmicky, and it wouldn't result in anything, because the show would remain House and the main character would continue to be Hugh Laurie, just as Roman, Cena, or whatever whipping boy for smarks would continue to be a featured part of the program. It's a whole lot of tease with zero payoff, and diminishing returns to boot. The problem, however, is that the issue isn't just someone like Owens saying someone "can't wrestle"- but rather (and it's been this way since Cena/HHH at Mania 22), Roman/Cena/whipping boy or girl for smarks are too wimpy to really respond to that. It used to be in wrestling that the old-school claim of "You can't wrestle" was a perfectly cromulent insult by a heel to make...directly because the face's response would usually be "Maybe I can't- but it's a good thing we ain't gonna wrestle out there, this is going to be a FIGHT, and in a fight, I can kick your ass any day of the week!"...but that response has just gone by the wayside for some reason. I've said it a longer way but I'll say it a shorter way now, not nessesarily discussing the topic just some of the points raised in the thread; It's not the fault of kayfabe dying for the change in how wrestling builds are, it's the fault of WWE and other companies to not try and build a new version of kayfabe from the ashes and instead resorting to "HEY, YOU READ THIS ON MELTZER?! HERE IT IS IN TV FORM BECAUSE F*** SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF!" We know it's a TV show. Instead of repeatedly telling us that, build a fictional universe that you can control instead of sometimes acting like we have to listen to The Bryan and Vinny Show to get more context. The big problem with that, however, is the fact that WWE DID try to develop a new version of kayfabe from the ashes, but the fans flat-out refused it and rioted by them describing it when Stephanie McMahon described Rock/Cena's feud concept as "Team Edward/Team Jacob", with the fans basically saying "EEEEEEEEEEWWWWW. TWILIGHT? ICK." This despite the fact that going past the name, Team Edward/Team Jacob IS basically the way to do a new version of kayfabe, because it goes from "this person is good and a hero and does everything right. They're fighting this person, who is pure evil", to "Here's the two people fighting. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. Now- who's side are YOU ON?"- which is basically what people would want for a new kayfabe. I don't, and I bet there's a sizable majority of fans who don't either. A good hearted guy beating the crap out of a douchebag is always going to be a draw.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Sept 15, 2016 8:04:05 GMT -5
]The big problem with that, however, is the fact that WWE DID try to develop a new version of kayfabe from the ashes, but the fans flat-out refused it and rioted by them describing it when Stephanie McMahon described Rock/Cena's feud concept as "Team Edward/Team Jacob", with the fans basically saying "EEEEEEEEEEWWWWW. TWILIGHT? ICK." This despite the fact that going past the name, Team Edward/Team Jacob IS basically the way to do a new version of kayfabe, because it goes from "this person is good and a hero and does everything right. They're fighting this person, who is pure evil", to "Here's the two people fighting. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. Now- who's side are YOU ON?"- which is basically what people would want for a new kayfabe. Steph wasn't setting up a new kayfabe from that, she was basically pitching a marketing strategy mostly because 1. Twilight was a big thing at the time and 2. Edward/Jacob wasn't that deep, it boiled down to 'Dude's a vampire who shines, dude's a werewolf who hates wearing t-shirts, WHO WINS?!'. It was also their excuse to try and get women interested in wrestling instead of, you know, appealing to women. Let's look at the feud she said that about. The intention of Rock/Cena wasn't to showcase how both guys were or to do what you said it should, thus making people excited to see them fight, it was to tear both of them down to the same level to give pointless ammunition to one side to use against one another. The merchandise promo Rock did, Cena laughing at Rock's passionate promo, Rock saying 'Fruity Pebbles', the RIDICULOUS writing on hand crap. It boiled down to 'These two both suck in different ways' which, personally, killed much of the interest in the feud even before they stepped in the ring at WrestleMania. You don't want to see two people bickering, you want to see The Rock be The Rock and John Cena be John Cena. The electrifying man who could out promo anyone vs. Hustle, Loyalty and Respect. They didn't even take the 'One's Samoan, One's White WHO WINS?!' approach. And anyway, even ignoring how the fued was, they were doing the match in Miami and trying to get people to boo The Rock. That'd be like trying to get Bret Hart booed in Montreal in the 90s. If you were doing it with Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania 25 because both were from Texas, sure. And hey, that's what they did for their build and shockingly, people remember it all more. They never wanted to take that approach, even for the thing they wanted to base it off. They wanted to continue to fit square pegs into round holes instead of developing characters and stories around the talent they have. And even then, they seem to have no idea how to write anything except 'How can we bring the Authority into this?' and 'How many insider podcasts do our viewers listen to?'
|
|
|
Post by Cela on Sept 15, 2016 12:29:37 GMT -5
Yeah, he's a CAW. In moveset, promos, and push. Normal rules don't apply to him for some reason. When other wrestlers do this, Hardcore Holly beats them up backstage.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 12:46:41 GMT -5
Strange, he doesn't look like a 7-foot tall Juggalo with tribal tattoos, who uses the Burning Hammer as a finish and whose Titantron inexplicably contains pictures of Stacy Kiebler.
|
|
Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
|
Post by Reflecto on Sept 15, 2016 13:14:04 GMT -5
]The big problem with that, however, is the fact that WWE DID try to develop a new version of kayfabe from the ashes, but the fans flat-out refused it and rioted by them describing it when Stephanie McMahon described Rock/Cena's feud concept as "Team Edward/Team Jacob", with the fans basically saying "EEEEEEEEEEWWWWW. TWILIGHT? ICK." This despite the fact that going past the name, Team Edward/Team Jacob IS basically the way to do a new version of kayfabe, because it goes from "this person is good and a hero and does everything right. They're fighting this person, who is pure evil", to "Here's the two people fighting. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. This is THIS person's reason for why they don't like them. Now- who's side are YOU ON?"- which is basically what people would want for a new kayfabe. Steph wasn't setting up a new kayfabe from that, she was basically pitching a marketing strategy mostly because 1. Twilight was a big thing at the time and 2. Edward/Jacob wasn't that deep, it boiled down to 'Dude's a vampire who shines, dude's a werewolf who hates wearing t-shirts, WHO WINS?!'. It was also their excuse to try and get women interested in wrestling instead of, you know, appealing to women. Let's look at the feud she said that about. The intention of Rock/Cena wasn't to showcase how both guys were or to do what you said it should, thus making people excited to see them fight, it was to tear both of them down to the same level to give pointless ammunition to one side to use against one another. The merchandise promo Rock did, Cena laughing at Rock's passionate promo, Rock saying 'Fruity Pebbles', the RIDICULOUS writing on hand crap. It boiled down to 'These two both suck in different ways' which, personally, killed much of the interest in the feud even before they stepped in the ring at WrestleMania. You don't want to see two people bickering, you want to see The Rock be The Rock and John Cena be John Cena. The electrifying man who could out promo anyone vs. Hustle, Loyalty and Respect. They didn't even take the 'One's Samoan, One's White WHO WINS?!' approach. And anyway, even ignoring how the fued was, they were doing the match in Miami and trying to get people to boo The Rock. That'd be like trying to get Bret Hart booed in Montreal in the 90s. If you were doing it with Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania 25 because both were from Texas, sure. And hey, that's what they did for their build and shockingly, people remember it all more. They never wanted to take that approach, even for the thing they wanted to base it off. They wanted to continue to fit square pegs into round holes instead of developing characters and stories around the talent they have. And even then, they seem to have no idea how to write anything except 'How can we bring the Authority into this?' and 'How many insider podcasts do our viewers listen to?' That was the case with Rock/Cena as the example- but at the same time, WWE "did" succeed to get the dynamic right the first time they actually did it without people noticing. Even with it, the original "This is 'X's argument, this is 'Y's argument- who's side are YOU on?' thing was basically the buildup to CM Punk vs. John Cena on the road to MITB 2011, and that feud worked VERY well with everyone getting into it big time. Even if there were kinks to be worked out (like how WWE truly believed CM Punk was the 'bad guy', and possibly truly believed he only turned face at the Walkout when he didn't walk out of the show)- that feud DID work very well. It's also a way to try and rework some feuds that were hot but failed under WWE's narrative if they tried it (best example: AJ Styles vs. Roman Reigns this year- where the feud was supposed to be 'Reigns destroys the jerk Styles', but the fans' narrative was 'AJ Styles liberates the title from that terrible Roman Reigns!'- and the feud was better than it could have been in the process.) Either way- even if the feud for Rock/Cena WAS bad, the same point to rework kayfabe would be "Here's this person. They're fighting this person. You choose which one you like...if so, to you, that one's the face and the other one's the heel"- but still, positioning it like that would instantly turn off any fan who hated Twilight in all its forms.
|
|
thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,658
|
Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 15, 2016 14:04:52 GMT -5
Steph wasn't setting up a new kayfabe from that, she was basically pitching a marketing strategy mostly because 1. Twilight was a big thing at the time and 2. Edward/Jacob wasn't that deep, it boiled down to 'Dude's a vampire who shines, dude's a werewolf who hates wearing t-shirts, WHO WINS?!'. It was also their excuse to try and get women interested in wrestling instead of, you know, appealing to women. Let's look at the feud she said that about. The intention of Rock/Cena wasn't to showcase how both guys were or to do what you said it should, thus making people excited to see them fight, it was to tear both of them down to the same level to give pointless ammunition to one side to use against one another. The merchandise promo Rock did, Cena laughing at Rock's passionate promo, Rock saying 'Fruity Pebbles', the RIDICULOUS writing on hand crap. It boiled down to 'These two both suck in different ways' which, personally, killed much of the interest in the feud even before they stepped in the ring at WrestleMania. You don't want to see two people bickering, you want to see The Rock be The Rock and John Cena be John Cena. The electrifying man who could out promo anyone vs. Hustle, Loyalty and Respect. They didn't even take the 'One's Samoan, One's White WHO WINS?!' approach. And anyway, even ignoring how the fued was, they were doing the match in Miami and trying to get people to boo The Rock. That'd be like trying to get Bret Hart booed in Montreal in the 90s. If you were doing it with Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania 25 because both were from Texas, sure. And hey, that's what they did for their build and shockingly, people remember it all more. They never wanted to take that approach, even for the thing they wanted to base it off. They wanted to continue to fit square pegs into round holes instead of developing characters and stories around the talent they have. And even then, they seem to have no idea how to write anything except 'How can we bring the Authority into this?' and 'How many insider podcasts do our viewers listen to?' That was the case with Rock/Cena as the example- but at the same time, WWE "did" succeed to get the dynamic right the first time they actually did it without people noticing. Even with it, the original "This is 'X's argument, this is 'Y's argument- who's side are YOU on?' thing was basically the buildup to CM Punk vs. John Cena on the road to MITB 2011, and that feud worked VERY well with everyone getting into it big time. Even if there were kinks to be worked out (like how WWE truly believed CM Punk was the 'bad guy', and possibly truly believed he only turned face at the Walkout when he didn't walk out of the show)- that feud DID work very well. It's also a way to try and rework some feuds that were hot but failed under WWE's narrative if they tried it (best example: AJ Styles vs. Roman Reigns this year- where the feud was supposed to be 'Reigns destroys the jerk Styles', but the fans' narrative was 'AJ Styles liberates the title from that terrible Roman Reigns!'- and the feud was better than it could have been in the process.) Either way- even if the feud for Rock/Cena WAS bad, the same point to rework kayfabe would be "Here's this person. They're fighting this person. You choose which one you like...if so, to you, that one's the face and the other one's the heel"- but still, positioning it like that would instantly turn off any fan who hated Twilight in all its forms. I think you last paragraph really is the future of kayfabe though. It has nothing to do with Twilight. What you're describing is what real sports are. I love the Yankees because they represent the big city and they operate with class and tradition. I hate the Yankees because the represent the big corporation using all of their resources to hold down the little guy. All of those things are true. It's up to you to decide if you like them or not and neither choice is wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Pigwell on Sept 15, 2016 14:32:24 GMT -5
If I had to assign a fault to Owens performance it's definitely that he's a "cool heel" which is counter productive obviously. Raw is backward booked anyway so he doesn't stick out like a sore thumb much at all though, that in itself is a problem but that's a different discussion.
Really just make him a jerky babyface and all is solved.
|
|
canal
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,173
|
Post by canal on Sept 15, 2016 14:52:22 GMT -5
Strange, he doesn't look like a 7-foot tall Juggalo with tribal tattoos, who uses the Burning Hammer as a finish and whose Titantron inexplicably contains pictures of Stacy Kiebler. He does have a 98 rating in the "It" category though. And guess who has a 99 babay!
|
|
|
Post by Tea & Crumpets on Sept 15, 2016 18:58:25 GMT -5
I do think part of the problem is the loss of kayfabe/the general trend towards "IM A BETTER WRESTLER, IM JUST BOOKED TO LOSE BECAUSE THE OFFICE LIKE YOU" promos, which got old a long time ago, but I do think part of the problem is still Owens' style, as I already said.
That said, I can think of a way to try and fix kayfabe. It'd be difficult given the longstanding exposure of behind the curtain, but there's one angle idea to me, that would do it, and would have been very topical a couple years ago- a match fixing angle. Have it revealed that The Authority or The Shareholders or various corrupt figures, maybe even a new rich heel character, has been buying out wrestlers for YEARS on end now, fixing matches to make money via bets and to either get the guy they want on top (if authority) or to set up their own perfect route to the top (if a new heel is behind it). You have a Dolph Ziggler or someone be the whistleblower- a guy who has choked time and time again, transpiring that he was told it'd be worth his while and promised favours that never paid off. You don't explicitly neccessarily SAY which matches have been fixed and when, as that could devalue and undercut the rub of some stars (you'd perhaps only reveal specific matches for guys who won't lose heat from it, or are already gone). It can even be a variety of different ways- bribing referees to stack the deck, bribing doctors to intervene unnecessarily, bribing the wrestler himself to throw it, you don't have to have the wrestlers in on it or undercut by it.
You paint the picture of a big conspiracy and have your next rebel babyface character ala Dean Ambrose or incorruptible good guy ala Sami Zayn be the one to tear down that system, or even a heel who turns face as he feels his entire success has been tainted. And as a result you 'reset' kayfabe, where wins & losses definitively matter again, and draw a line under the "I'm a better wrestler but booked to lose" crap as being allusions to this corruption and no longer a promo tactic. You could even use this as the Cena heel turn- he's never been propped up by The Authority, he's had his own outside help rigging the system. The only danger is if you go too far in it, it could devalue and bury guys who HAVE been built in recent years- if this had been done in say, 2011-13 when nobody was getting made as a top top star save Punk & Bryan and theyre the ones who uncover and end the conspiracy, it wouldn't really have hurt anybody too badly. But if you want to push the kayfabe reset button that's how you could do it- acknowledge the "scripted" nature, only in a kayfabe context of match-fixing, and then a face purges the corruption for the new kayfabe era. The trick is to ensure it doesn't just turn into another authority vs underdog angle, the focus is not getting a heel authority over but getting a new kayfabe over without burying the last few years. I don't know if it could be done convincingly, but it's an idea.
|
|
|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 15, 2016 19:21:04 GMT -5
Yes, Owens does have a problem with tearing people down. BUT if you think less of a wrestler because Owens LOLSAVAGE'd them, then you weren't fan of that wrestler in the first place.
|
|
Emmet Russell
King Koopa
Quieter
The best wrestler on earth.
Posts: 12,526
|
Post by Emmet Russell on Sept 16, 2016 4:30:05 GMT -5
Maybe, but unlike when Stephanie does it, it's funny.
|
|
A damn road sign
Samurai Cop
"What the hell am I? A school crossing?"
Posts: 2,424
|
Post by A damn road sign on Sept 16, 2016 7:13:06 GMT -5
Yes, Owens does have a problem with tearing people down. BUT if you think less of a wrestler because Owens LOLSAVAGE'd them, then you weren't fan of that wrestler in the first place.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 7:26:55 GMT -5
The thing is, if a face wants to be savage right back...there's easy ammo. Just look at the guy. Only Orton has touched upon this and even then very briefly. Why? It might make Owens look sympathetic. Body shaming is not the nicest thing to do and as a lot of the crowd are no strangers to a pork pie it may anger them. Maybe Owens is sensitive about it and he does seem to be a popular guy everywhere hes been people might not want to mention it. Owens can come back with a zinger of his own. Mocking guys whose bodies look a little "too perfect" especially any of the wellness boys or by saying even with his disadvantage in body type hes still made it to the top.
|
|