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Post by Citizen Snips on Dec 6, 2016 8:05:22 GMT -5
Are female protagonists in franchise features the new Montreal Screwjob? Every 4 months, someone posts their "hot take" that says absolutely nothing new and we get a 25 page thread that just devolves into the same circular arguments?
Just go see Moonlight and move on with your lives, folks!
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Dec 6, 2016 9:18:00 GMT -5
First of all, Rey's aptitude at flying is well explained in the expanded universe, which Disney has been very clear is treated as canon for the new films and will be there as supplemental material to expand back stories. Want to learn about Poe's mother? How Threepio got his red arm? Read the comics. Want to learn how Finn was treated as a storm trooper or why that one guy is so concerned that he's a traitor? Read Before The Awakening. This book also talks about how Rey found a working flight simulator and trained up with it every day as her main form of leisure, and was able to competently pilot a ship she thought would be her escape route from Jakku.
And that's at least as plausible as the farmer shooting small animals from his little quaint ship being chosen to pilot an X-Wing in an interstellar battle and destroy the Death Star. Sci Fi author Lawrence Miles compared it to a guy driving a tractor who finds some Nazi plans on his farm, so Churchill lets him lead the Dambusters. This was never realistic.
Second off, the whole 'she's better with the Falcon than Han and this is unrealistic' thing falls apart when you consider that the only things she knows better about the Falcon are down to the modifications that have been made to it without Han's knowledge. Unless we're talking about the ace flying in the action sequence, which we can put down to better sfx. Remember the odds of the Falcon getting out of that asteroid field? Han's a damn good pilot too, we just couldn't effectively show all the loop de loops before.
Thirdly, people wondering why she's able to do Jedi mind tricks... When Luke became a Jedi, his power was unknown to him. All records of the Jedi had been scrubbed by Palpatine, and his family weren't keen on telling him anything. When Rey became a Jedi, Luke's name was a legend everyone knew. You think they wouldn't hear about his powers in those legends? To the extent that if you discovered you had the Force, you wouldn't be tempted to try it out? This isn't official canon, but its not a huge stretch.
Also, even if he lost in the end, Luke was able to hold his own and have a drawn out duel with the most feared and adept Sith Lord in the galaxy who has had countless lightsabre battles and is a true master of the Force, when the only lightsabre training we ever see him get is the few minutes with the blast shield on his helmet in A New Hope. Rey (already an expert with a melee weapon before she even picks up a sabre) temporarily beating a seriously injured Kylo is a lot more realistic.
When you think about it for more than 10 seconds it becomes phenomenally easy to explain any of the paper thin excuses for calling any capable female character a Mary Sue.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 6, 2016 9:21:16 GMT -5
Also, even if he lost in the end, Luke was able to hold his own and have a drawn out duel with the most feared and adept Sith Lord in the galaxy who has had countless lightsabre battles and is a true master of the Force, when the only lightsabre training we ever see him get is the few minutes with the blast shield on his helmet in A New Hope. . Not that it invalidates your points (especially as I don't label Rey as a Mary Sue) but there is some saber training shown/implied with Yoda in Empire.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 6, 2016 9:22:00 GMT -5
Are female protagonists in franchise features the new Montreal Screwjob? Every 4 months, someone posts their "hot take" that says absolutely nothing new and we get a 25 page thread that just devolves into the same circular arguments? Just go see Moonlight and move on with your lives, folks! Yes, please do so. That film is amazing. Why the hell are we still making an issue out of this? Why? Please, let's stop this.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Dec 6, 2016 9:37:04 GMT -5
Also, even if he lost in the end, Luke was able to hold his own and have a drawn out duel with the most feared and adept Sith Lord in the galaxy who has had countless lightsabre battles and is a true master of the Force, when the only lightsabre training we ever see him get is the few minutes with the blast shield on his helmet in A New Hope. . Not that it invalidates your points (especially as I don't label Rey as a Mary Sue) but there is some saber training shown/implied with Yoda in Empire. Cheerfully withdrawn. I'd honestly forgotten that anything with the lightsabre was shown there.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 6, 2016 9:41:41 GMT -5
Not that it invalidates your points (especially as I don't label Rey as a Mary Sue) but there is some saber training shown/implied with Yoda in Empire. Cheerfully withdrawn. I'd honestly forgotten that anything with the lightsabre was shown there. Most of it isn't specifically saber stuff, like the cave which was more or less a "learn to fight defensively, stupid" lesson than flat out forms and such. as I'd imagine having someone learning the proper stances and technique would actually be pretty boring for a viewer.
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Post by Mike Strike on Dec 6, 2016 10:10:55 GMT -5
My main problem is that it wasn't Jacen & Jaina Solo. That would mean working in the yuuzhan vong and that crap needs to die in a fire. No they don't need everything from EU, just the twins & Mara Jade.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 6, 2016 10:50:04 GMT -5
Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb Yeah, the New Republic got what was coming to it. Idiots. It creates a narrative problem too. Why should I root for the New Republic now when they've shown themselves to be stupid? In the same sense, I can't root for Rey to prevail as a Jedi either, because all that will happen is that she'll create another Jedi order, someone will turn to the dark side, and kill loads of people, like it always happens in this franchise.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 6, 2016 11:32:08 GMT -5
You can always root for the Wookiees.
Chewie appears to have the most stable moral compass in the entire galaxy. If he's going to wreck shit, it probably had it coming.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 6, 2016 12:57:42 GMT -5
What an alarming thread this has ended up being.
Feminist agenda, indeed. Given that feminism is a belief in equality between genders, the only way you can be against a feminist agenda is because you want men to remain superior in every sense.
Of course, you can be anti-"feminist," but then that strawman, hairy-armpitted, man-hating "feminist" seems to not exist anywhere outside of anecdotes and some extreme minority blogs.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Dec 6, 2016 13:32:48 GMT -5
That would mean working in the yuuzhan vong and that crap needs to die in a fire. No they don't need everything from EU, just the twins & Mara Jade. Kylo might as well be Jacen and Rey might as well be Jaina. Especially, more than likely, as the trilogy continues. Luke turning to the dark side is the one thing from the Expanded Universe I really wanted to see in the new films.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 6, 2016 13:35:55 GMT -5
It creates a narrative problem too. Why should I root for the New Republic now when they've shown themselves to be stupid? Well, given that the New Republic government are all dead now and the only people of authority left are the ones who saw it coming, I'd say that clears that particular problem up.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 6, 2016 14:10:05 GMT -5
What an alarming thread this has ended up being. Feminist agenda, indeed. Given that feminism is a belief in equality between genders, the only way you can be against a feminist agenda is because you want men to remain superior in every sense.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 6, 2016 14:10:27 GMT -5
It creates a narrative problem too. Why should I root for the New Republic now when they've shown themselves to be stupid? Well, given that the New Republic government are all dead now and the only people of authority left are the ones who saw it coming, I'd say that clears that particular problem up. I'd have more faith in that if I knew for certain that the good guys won't be forming an Alliance To Restore A New..New Republic
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xCompackx
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Post by xCompackx on Dec 6, 2016 14:15:04 GMT -5
First of all, Rey's aptitude at flying is well explained in the expanded universe, which Disney has been very clear is treated as canon for the new films and will be there as supplemental material to expand back stories. Want to learn about Poe's mother? How Threepio got his red arm? Read the comics. Want to learn how Finn was treated as a storm trooper or why that one guy is so concerned that he's a traitor? Read Before The Awakening. This book also talks about how Rey found a working flight simulator and trained up with it every day as her main form of leisure, and was able to competently pilot a ship she thought would be her escape route from Jakku. And that's at least as plausible as the farmer shooting small animals from his little quaint ship being chosen to pilot an X-Wing in an interstellar battle and destroy the Death Star. Sci Fi author Lawrence Miles compared it to a guy driving a tractor who finds some Nazi plans on his farm, so Churchill lets him lead the Dambusters. This was never realistic. Second off, the whole 'she's better with the Falcon than Han and this is unrealistic' thing falls apart when you consider that the only things she knows better about the Falcon are down to the modifications that have been made to it without Han's knowledge. Unless we're talking about the ace flying in the action sequence, which we can put down to better sfx. Remember the odds of the Falcon getting out of that asteroid field? Han's a damn good pilot too, we just couldn't effectively show all the loop de loops before. Thirdly, people wondering why she's able to do Jedi mind tricks... When Luke became a Jedi, his power was unknown to him. All records of the Jedi had been scrubbed by Palpatine, and his family weren't keen on telling him anything. When Rey became a Jedi, Luke's name was a legend everyone knew. You think they wouldn't hear about his powers in those legends? To the extent that if you discovered you had the Force, you wouldn't be tempted to try it out? This isn't official canon, but its not a huge stretch. Also, even if he lost in the end, Luke was able to hold his own and have a drawn out duel with the most feared and adept Sith Lord in the galaxy who has had countless lightsabre battles and is a true master of the Force, when the only lightsabre training we ever see him get is the few minutes with the blast shield on his helmet in A New Hope. Rey (already an expert with a melee weapon before she even picks up a sabre) temporarily beating a seriously injured Kylo is a lot more realistic. When you think about it for more than 10 seconds it becomes phenomenally easy to explain any of the paper thin excuses for calling any capable female character a Mary Sue. The thing that really kills the "Rey is a Mary Sue" thing for me is that even when she gets these Force powers after being captured by Kylo Ren, she's clearly shown to not have any focus or skill with her new abilities. The lightsaber didn't immediately come to her when she and Ren were trying to Force grab it, it took multiple attempts to convince the guard to let her go, she only barely resisted Ren's Force... interrogation thing. That's not a "perfect character with no flaws".
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 6, 2016 14:19:27 GMT -5
She's definitely not a Mary Sue. Her abilities are consistent with Jedi teachings of the Force being within oneself and having abilities within that you never thought you had. Like when Luke asked Yoda how he'd know the light side from the dark, Yoda didn't bother going into a detailed explanation to teach him. He just said he would instinctively know when his mind was calm.
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Post by badkarma on Dec 6, 2016 15:03:42 GMT -5
It's funny how upset people get over the main protagonist being female in a Star Wars flick. I can't wait to see how they handle the main antagonist being female as well. The theaters will over flow with fan boy tears when it's revealed.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 6, 2016 15:21:45 GMT -5
I think Kylo Ren should have been female. The character would have been less Darth Vader-lite if it was a girl. She could still have been Leia and Han's kid.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 6, 2016 18:07:50 GMT -5
I think Kylo Ren should have been female. The character would have been less Darth Vader-lite if it was a girl. She could still have been Leia and Han's kid. I'm sort of hoping that one of these side/prequel movies will have the Seventh Sister as the main antagonist. You can even get SMG to play her in live action as well as being her voice actor. I thought she was sort of interesting and that more could have been done with her.
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