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Post by Urfarkendarf on Dec 19, 2016 18:38:12 GMT -5
The WWE RAW Womens Championship was donned at WrestleMania Since then, April, it has changed hands EIGHT TIMES into December, of the same year And those eight times have been between two women, four times each. The latest being Charlotte winning, again, tonight. That is bad booking, laid out flat. You christen a title, and monopolize it between two women and alienate the rest, and throw in HISTORY MAKING taglines along the way. And more than likely, this shit will still continue into the rumble. Actually, no it really it isn't. I personally feel its been great booking and doing a lot with the limited roster on Raw. Its built up a fantastic blood feud where any of the two rivals can win at any time. The title has been made to be important. It doesnt matter if its been swapped multiple times. It's between the same two people that have had multiple gimmick matches and the feud drawn out long term. I could see the argument if it was the Attitude Era and we have Kane holding the title for 45 minutes, then Rock gets a month, Taker, Austin, HHH, Foley, etc. Frankly, I'd rather watch Sasha v. Charlotte because its a believable feud. On the flipside of the coin, now is the time to cool it down. Let's see Bayley chase it a bit, or get Nia Jax involved with Sasha. It's hard to get up in arms because Alicia Fox and Dana Brooke aren't in the title picture. Let's be clear, that is it to the Women's Division on Raw. Charlotte, Sasha, Bayley, Nia Jax, Alicia Fox, and Dana Brooke is literally it. Summer Rae and Paige aren't being used/injured at the moment. We don't need long term reigns if there's equal value in the two feuding. Personally, I have Bayley start a feud with Charlotte tonight, and at the Rumble have Asuka come down and kick Bayley's teeth down her throat then turn around and do the same to Charlotte. There's the Mania Raw Women's match. Put Sasha in a long program with Nia away from the title and see if she can maintain the pops. That's 3 upper tier women made relatively quickly via Charlotte/Sasha because of the rep those two specifically have built up over the last 8 months.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 19, 2016 18:40:05 GMT -5
It is sad that almost everyone looks at the ending and think "lol Sasha is a dumbass" and only Charlotte's fans looks at the ending and think "Holy Moly, Charlotte is a beast". Charlotte was strategically perfect, her aim was to make Sasha suffer and beg for mercy before the time runs out, and she did. That last night was Charlotte's moment to shine, not Sasha's to stink. This. Say what you will about 'bad booking' but everything in the finish to this match made perfect sense to me. Charlotte did the bridge to the Figure 8 from the Four, putting significantly more pressure on the bad leg AND THEN Sasha was forced to tap. Not before. Additionally, Sasha probably thought she had Champion's advantage. In an Ironman match, if they are tied 2-2 at the end of the hour/30 minutes then the Champ retains. The only reason Sasha didn't is because of some lame 'End of the Line Rules' stipulation where there had to be a winner (now that was bad booking but honestly I'm sure most people just want the fued to be done and over with so nobody is really focusing on that aspect). If you like Sasha better than Charlotte, that is pretty much the only emotional argument you could have for this being a 'bad finish'. Emotional arguments aren't required. Logical ones suffice. Even putting more pressure on her leg isn't adequate enough to explain why Sasha couldn't bear the pain for just another two seconds which would have been enough for her to retain her title. It wasn't just a bad finish. It was a laughably bad one.
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Post by CM Parish on Dec 19, 2016 18:58:39 GMT -5
Sorry but you're in the figure 4 for 1:57 and you're looking at the clock and can't last THREE MORE SECONDS?! Sorry but this is some awful bullshit booking.
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Post by CM Parish on Dec 19, 2016 19:11:57 GMT -5
It is sad that almost everyone looks at the ending and think "lol Sasha is a dumbass" and only Charlotte's fans looks at the ending and think "Holy Moly, Charlotte is a beast". Charlotte was strategically perfect, her aim was to make Sasha suffer and beg for mercy before the time runs out, and she did. That last night was Charlotte's moment to shine, not Sasha's to stink. This. Say what you will about 'bad booking' but everything in the finish to this match made perfect sense to me. Charlotte did the bridge to the Figure 8 from the Four, putting significantly more pressure on the bad leg AND THEN Sasha was forced to tap. Not before. Additionally, Sasha probably thought she had Champion's advantage. In an Ironman match, if they are tied 2-2 at the end of the hour/30 minutes then the Champ retains. The only reason Sasha didn't is because of some lame 'End of the Line Rules' stipulation where there had to be a winner (now that was bad booking but honestly I'm sure most people just want the fued to be done and over with so nobody is really focusing on that aspect). If you like Sasha better than Charlotte, that is pretty much the only emotional argument you could have for this being a 'bad finish'. Iron man matches have always gone into sudden death in ties.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 19, 2016 19:15:33 GMT -5
If you're in that much pain and struggling as much as Sasha was I doubt you know or care how much time is left. I wouldn't be thinking 3 more seconds and I beat her, I'd be thinking much longer and I may never walk again. Of course I expect WWE to completely shit on that tonight and have Sasha talk some bullshit about watching the clock and trying to play for overtime.
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Post by Starshine on Dec 19, 2016 19:22:02 GMT -5
I'm a Charlotte fan, and agree that was a bad finish.
You do the same thing with Sasha tapping with maybe a minute left on the clock, then end with the two trading quick near falls until the time expires, I think it would come off a lot better. The tap at the last second thing should never be something the face does. Even though I love submissions, and think WWE really should apply injury consequence to them, they don't, so arguing she was risking injury doesn't really mean anything in the context of this company.
For me, the saddest thing is that I was lucky enough to see these two wrestle at the NXT show for Mania 31 weekend last year. Comparing the excitement surrounding them then compared to what their feud has become now is pretty depressing.
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Dec 19, 2016 19:25:34 GMT -5
This. Say what you will about 'bad booking' but everything in the finish to this match made perfect sense to me. Charlotte did the bridge to the Figure 8 from the Four, putting significantly more pressure on the bad leg AND THEN Sasha was forced to tap. Not before. Additionally, Sasha probably thought she had Champion's advantage. In an Ironman match, if they are tied 2-2 at the end of the hour/30 minutes then the Champ retains. The only reason Sasha didn't is because of some lame 'End of the Line Rules' stipulation where there had to be a winner (now that was bad booking but honestly I'm sure most people just want the fued to be done and over with so nobody is really focusing on that aspect). If you like Sasha better than Charlotte, that is pretty much the only emotional argument you could have for this being a 'bad finish'. Iron man matches have always gone into sudden death in ties. Well you're technically correct, most of the time in ties there is an OT especially with the title on the line. But a quick wikipedia search shows two times when the wasn't the case: HBK vs Kurt Angle (non-title RAW grudge match was ruled a draw) Shannon Moore/Jimmy Wang Yang vs The In Crowd (Miz and Morrison) (WWE tag title match, 1-to-1 tie ends in a draw, The In Crowd retains titles)
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Dec 19, 2016 19:28:21 GMT -5
This. Say what you will about 'bad booking' but everything in the finish to this match made perfect sense to me. Charlotte did the bridge to the Figure 8 from the Four, putting significantly more pressure on the bad leg AND THEN Sasha was forced to tap. Not before. Additionally, Sasha probably thought she had Champion's advantage. In an Ironman match, if they are tied 2-2 at the end of the hour/30 minutes then the Champ retains. The only reason Sasha didn't is because of some lame 'End of the Line Rules' stipulation where there had to be a winner (now that was bad booking but honestly I'm sure most people just want the fued to be done and over with so nobody is really focusing on that aspect). If you like Sasha better than Charlotte, that is pretty much the only emotional argument you could have for this being a 'bad finish'. Emotional arguments aren't required. Logical ones suffice. Even putting more pressure on her leg isn't adequate enough to explain why Sasha couldn't bear the pain for just another two seconds which would have been enough for her to retain her title. It wasn't just a bad finish. It was a laughably bad one. Logically speaking, let's continue your train of logic here. Say Sasha doesn't tap-- so her leg SNAPS. Next day on RAW she can have her own personal Daniel Bryan moment when he had to relinquish the IC title due to injury-- I'd say LOGICALLY Sasha made the wise move to tap. Logically. /snark
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 19, 2016 19:31:24 GMT -5
I don't care anymore. Just get Charolette to 16 reigns. Do it tonight if you have to. Just get this boring shit over with.
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Dec 19, 2016 19:34:34 GMT -5
in all seriousness I wouldn't call it 'bad booking' but this has been 'lazy booking' at it's finest. Have the two most over Women on the RAW roster and just throw darts at a board to see which stipulation match they compete in next for the FIRST TIME EVER HISTORICAL MATCH GUYZ, I think people are burnt out and I place the blame squarely on the ridiculous 'rematch clause' bs that the WWE loves to create feuds that we've already seen a thousand times.
Someone needs to petition to get rid of the rematch clause for all championships and have every #1 contender be someone that has to earn their spot, not just 'I will be needing my title back now." Game genie coding it up like Dave Batista in his heyday.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 19:46:29 GMT -5
in all seriousness I wouldn't call it 'bad booking' but this has been 'lazy booking' at it's finest. Have the two most over Women on the RAW roster and just throw darts at a board to see which stipulation match they compete in next for the FIRST TIME EVER HISTORICAL MATCH GUYZ, I think people are burnt out and I place the blame squarely on the ridiculous 'rematch clause' bs that the WWE loves to create feuds that we've already seen a thousand times. It may prove to be bad booking long term because WWE may have trouble ever getting people to care about them wrestling again, which is what happened after the very similar Cena vs Orton feud in 2009.
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Shark
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Post by Shark on Dec 19, 2016 19:52:41 GMT -5
A few things that have come to mind as I've read through this thread. We've seen the last second tap out in this sort of match before, just last year in fact with Sasha and Bayley. The difference is that Sasha was contorted like a pretzel and was getting kicked in the head and likely didn't know or care how much time was left. Also, they were tied at that point and it was the face making the heel tap so the psychology made sense.
This match also broke what I think should be the cardinal rule of the iron man match, that being that the face should never lead until they win. Having the heel valiantly fight back should never be done. Same as the faces having the man advantage in War Games, it never works.
Many people have put forward ideas on how to better end the match with the same result and WWE went with none of them. I'd like to think that means we have more booking sense than people actually in WWE.
I've also seen the difference between Raw and SDLive's women's roster and here's something to think about. Sasha vs Charlotte has long been the only real feud that had anything behind it. The only other women's feud on Raw right now is Alicia vs Bayley and they are fighting over Alicia being jealous Bayley gave a stuffed bear to her boyfriend...Women's revolution my ass.
The bigger question now is where do these women go now? It's a loooooong time until Mania. If WWE is going to have Bayley challenge then, what is Charlotte supposed to do until then? There's literally no other face for her to go against on the roster. Even Emma seems to be a heel based on her tweet after Raw last week. If they go with Sasha as champ, she'd have an immediate feud with Nia Jax that would give Sasha some much needed face cred with her battling the monster heel. Charlotte could have faced Bayley or Dana if they decide to be stupid and turn Dana face. Now, I guess Sasha still faces Nia and that'd be nice, but so what now, really? We are also assuming Bayley is the Mania challenger. I can totally see WWE doing the Bayley feud now and for the Rumble and then having Nia win the women's Rumble they are supposedly doing and then having Nia Jax be the one to dethrone Charlotte at Mania.
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schma
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Post by schma on Dec 20, 2016 1:54:42 GMT -5
Well the good news tonight is they claimed there was a no rematch clause on the match last night.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 20, 2016 12:38:58 GMT -5
I think the matches have been great, but the results have often been stupid. This many title changes is just f***ing ridiculous.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 20, 2016 13:04:26 GMT -5
Emotional arguments aren't required. Logical ones suffice. Even putting more pressure on her leg isn't adequate enough to explain why Sasha couldn't bear the pain for just another two seconds which would have been enough for her to retain her title. It wasn't just a bad finish. It was a laughably bad one. Logically speaking, let's continue your train of logic here. Say Sasha doesn't tap-- so her leg SNAPS. Next day on RAW she can have her own personal Daniel Bryan moment when he had to relinquish the IC title due to injury-- I'd say LOGICALLY Sasha made the wise move to tap. Logically. /snark Again, not with two seconds to go. It's literally the time it takes to breathe in and out, and besides the title has been traded so often, there's nothing to suggest she couldn't just regain it when she recovered. In fact if they had done that angle, where she wouldn't quit even despite suffering a broken leg, it would have been much better for her face persona.
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Post by Andy Martin on Dec 20, 2016 13:25:09 GMT -5
Sorry but you're in the figure 4 for 1:57 and you're looking at the clock and can't last THREE MORE SECONDS?! Sorry but this is some awful bullshit booking. Maybe I can chalk this up to me watching WAY too much MMA and seeing people tap out with 1-2 seconds on the clock but I really didn't have a problem with that.
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Post by feartear on Dec 20, 2016 16:20:21 GMT -5
Though I have to admit that the roles of the characters is what makes the whole "taps 2 seconds before time runs out" a stupid situation.
If Charlotte was a face and Sasha a heel, we would all have praised Charlotte strategy and accept why Sasha tapped (just as many fans accepted Goldberg's squash over Lesnar and praised the realism of the match).
But Sasha not only is a baby-face, but is even young and just at the beginning of her career.
Let's pretend it was Shawn Michales tapping because of the Ankle Lock just two seconds before the time out. No one would have reacted to it in the same angry way, because Shawn is a veteran, he could have afford to do that and such a thing won't have tarnished his career (and it would have helped that he tapped because his opponent was also a veteran).
But a fresh baby face who struggles to be dominant and is in desperate need of a redemption, like Sasha? No, such thing doesn't work. Quite the contrary, it's a thing that probably killed her actual status.
Sasha needs to completely redefine her persona if she wants to recover from this upset (and, if she wants to make her rivarly with Charlotte really historic in retrospect. I can't re-think about their 2016 rivalry in, say, 2036, if she failes to cement herself as an important name in the meantime)
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 20, 2016 17:15:25 GMT -5
Alexa is lucky to have no baggage. Her matches won't be "history making", there was no questionable start to her title lineage, no divas revolution, no real notable NXT history, no being part of a group like "the four horsewomen"...
She can just concentrate on being the best champion possible and for better or worse will be judged on her own merits.
Yet Alexa wouldn’t have got the chance to do that without the divas revolution. Makes me wonder if all four of the horsewomen will end up being martyrs for women's wresting, never escaping the shadow of the revolution. Instead it'll be those that come after them that really reap the long-term benefits.
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A damn road sign
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Post by A damn road sign on Dec 20, 2016 17:23:12 GMT -5
Well the good news tonight is they claimed there was a no rematch clause on the match last night. The whole "rematch clause" deal is the one attitude era relic I hate with a burning f***ing passion.
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Post by joeiscool on Dec 20, 2016 17:28:43 GMT -5
I don't think the belt is devalued in any way. In fact I think the fact it's been traded so much with highly competitive matches has added value to the belt.
My only gripe would be that they did not build the other women up. Right now Sasha seems like the only credible contender for the belt, everyone else is not even the same league.
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