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Post by Drillbit Taylor on Dec 19, 2016 1:16:46 GMT -5
Yeah that's true, but as someone who's been defending RAW from hyperbolic criticism and trying to get the masses to acknowledge Smackdown bias......Tonight sucked. Ok, as I've said this before and will continue to say it about this issue, it's not Bias. It's very simple, Smackdown does better than RAW on a way more consistent basis. They are not perfect, they screw up too, but the atmosphere and talent do a way better job as does the booking of that show with what they have and who they have, than RAW.
It's really not that hard but some people want to seem to take offense to it. If RAW gave any sort of a shit, we'd have two pretty decent weekly wrestling shows, instead, we have Smackdown, and some people think it's a Bias, and frankly, I'm sick of that too.
RAW is not a show where everything is wrong all the time either to be clear. They do some things right too, but the right they do is not consistent, they beat into the ground, or goes nowhere as well. Their talent is misused and mismanaged, and yeah, the third hour doesn't help either. But to say it's a Bias to like one show over the other for some very blunt differences in their products and presentation to me makes no sense. Let people like and hate what they like and hate man.
That is the definition of Bias/ opinion. There is no scientific measure for evaluating wrestling, therefore the opinion will have a bias to it. Coke Tastes better than Pepsi. That is an opinion. What is the measure as to what is "better". The crispness? The sweetness? Carbonation? What person A's performance to carbonation level is not going to be person B's. So even if they are both evaluating a soda on the basis of carbonation, they will not necessarily agree which soda is better. If B hates overly carbonated soda, when given a glass that the carbonation is going off like fireworks they might not give a fair assessment to the sugar levels or crispness. Smackdown is better. Based on booking? What if a person enjoys the style that Raw does more than Smackdown does that make them wrong because others say Smackdown's style is more enjoyable to them? What you define as misused, others might think they are being used right, that returns back to a bias. If you like Smackdown's style more then odds are you are going to have a prejudice against Raw. And vice versa. When you start saying one is better than the other you are showing a bias. The only scientific measure that wrestling presents is TV ratings. And even that has flaws.
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StuntGranny®
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Post by StuntGranny® on Dec 19, 2016 1:17:11 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd go with WrestleMania being the worst as well. It was absolute garbage.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Dec 19, 2016 1:17:47 GMT -5
But would you say it was AssButt? I would.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 19, 2016 1:18:33 GMT -5
Ok, as I've said this before and will continue to say it about this issue, it's not Bias. It's very simple, Smackdown does better than RAW on a way more consistent basis. They are not perfect, they screw up too, but the atmosphere and talent do a way better job as does the booking of that show with what they have and who they have, than RAW.
It's really not that hard but some people want to seem to take offense to it. If RAW gave any sort of a shit, we'd have two pretty decent weekly wrestling shows, instead, we have Smackdown, and some people think it's a Bias, and frankly, I'm sick of that too.
RAW is not a show where everything is wrong all the time either to be clear. They do some things right too, but the right they do is not consistent, they beat into the ground, or goes nowhere as well. Their talent is misused and mismanaged, and yeah, the third hour doesn't help either. But to say it's a Bias to like one show over the other for some very blunt differences in their products and presentation to me makes no sense. Let people like and hate what they like and hate man.
That is the definition of Bias/ opinion. There is no scientific measure for evaluating wrestling, therefore the opinion will have a bias to it. Coke Tastes better than Pepsi. That is an opinion. What is the measure as to what is "better". The crispness? The sweetness? Carbonation? What person A's performance to carbonation level is not going to be person B's. So even if they are both evaluating a soda on the basis of carbonation, they will not necessarily agree which soda is better. If B hates overly carbonated soda, when given a glass that the carbonation is going off like fireworks they might not give a fair assessment to the sugar levels or crispness. Smackdown is better. Based on booking? What if a person enjoys the style that Raw does more than Smackdown does that make them wrong because others say Smackdown's style is more enjoyable to them? What you define as misused, others might think they are being used right, that returns back to a bias. If you like Smackdown's style more then odds are you are going to have a prejudice against Raw. And vice versa. When you start saying one is better than the other you are showing a bias. The only scientific measure that wrestling presents is TV ratings. And even that has flaws. Well if you want my honest opinion...
Pepsi just sorta tastes flatter to me, like more syrupy than Coke which has a better bite in comparison and feels more refreshing.
I liked Pepsi Twist though...
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Dec 19, 2016 1:21:00 GMT -5
Actually, even better than TV ratings in this era is attendance figures. People can blame DVR's, streaming sites, etc. for down ratings, but you can't spin empty seats.
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metylerca
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Don't be alarmed.
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Post by metylerca on Dec 19, 2016 1:21:26 GMT -5
No, I didn't think it was the worst of this year. But that won't stop hyperbolic levels of criticism to make it known this wasn't a perfect show.
Finish to main event was lame. The match was good though, Owens/Reigns have good chemistry and I don't think anybody doubts this.
Jericho/Rollins had great interactions and the crowd was into it.
Women's Iron Man could go both ways. Charlotte winning does not negate their performances, but the finish surely made her look face-like. As did her crying on Raw Talk.
Tag Title switch was plain awesome and criticism beyond maybe hoping New Day won or Cesaro scored a pin would reek of "doesn't like stuff."
Zayn/BRAUN was 10 minutes, half of which was entertaining. I'm not as down on the Foley stuff as most and it was largely inoffensive tonight. I look forward to where it leads, if anywhere.
I'd go 6/10 on this one. I do think there is a rush to harshly rate shows sometimes, or at least it comes off that way. I stopped the live threads for a while because it became "_____is a lame!" and "f*** YOU WWE! (for booking a segment I didn't like" fests in there, which sucks if you're looking to interact with others but just find the same tired hyperbole which I do agree does tend to breed a negative atmosphere. People are less likely to post positively if they know they'll be quoted and told they're wrong or their post will just get lost in a sea of negative posts. I know, because I've slowly seen my posting habits change. I subscribe to plenty of boards for wrestling, be it Facebook or ones behind subscription paywalls, and I think this is the most civil of them all, but I also believe the overwhelming negativity toward the product here lately has been off-putting and no better than places where banned posters here end up. We're better than that. It's one thing to think a show sucked, but it's another to get all "f*** Vince" or "I'm cancelling my sub if they don't adhere to my demands!", which is a sentiment I've seen lately and get discouraged from participating in conversation over, since there's no use in calling out negativity if the only response is "not everyone feels the way you do." It's easier to just not post and form one's own opinions, unfortunately.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 19, 2016 1:36:33 GMT -5
No, I didn't think it was the worst of this year. But that won't stop hyperbolic levels of criticism to make it known this wasn't a perfect show. Finish to main event was lame. The match was good though, Owens/Reigns have good chemistry and I don't think anybody doubts this. I think the end would have been better had they saved the Jericho reveal for Raw. Leave some mystery, have Owens call out Jericho to start Raw and deal with Seth and Roman through out the night until Jericho shows up and looks like he is finally going to get caught, then Jericho attacks one of them.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Dec 19, 2016 1:37:53 GMT -5
And let's not forget SummerSlam. That was butt as well.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Dec 19, 2016 1:38:40 GMT -5
Mania 32 is the worst of the year by a mile, as an absolute slap in the face to fans from beginning to end. This wasn't that.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Dec 19, 2016 1:41:49 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd go with WrestleMania being the worst as well. It was absolute garbage. And all that garbage was from people standing outside for 8 hours to catch the last 25 minutes of a 6 hour show.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Dec 19, 2016 1:46:13 GMT -5
No, I didn't think it was the worst of this year. But that won't stop hyperbolic levels of criticism to make it known this wasn't a perfect show. Finish to main event was lame. The match was good though, Owens/Reigns have good chemistry and I don't think anybody doubts this. I think the end would have been better had they saved the Jericho reveal for Raw. Leave some mystery, have Owens call out Jericho to start Raw and deal with Seth and Roman through out the night until Jericho shows up and looks like he is finally going to get caught, then Jericho attacks one of them. Yeah, that whole thing seemed expedited. A lot of people expected Jericho to help Owens, would have been better to save the reveal at least.
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Post by Urfarkendarf on Dec 19, 2016 1:47:57 GMT -5
I'm throwing Mania out of the equation, because even though it stunk it still feels pointless to compare it to any of the B-shows. This wasn't the worst of the B's though. Clash of Champions was. This had a crappy main finish, but on whole I generally enjoyed this show a lot more.
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Post by kingbookermark on Dec 19, 2016 1:55:05 GMT -5
I thought it was the best Raw brand ppv yet. Lots of surprises, story progression etc.
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Post by CertifiedBA on Dec 19, 2016 2:09:52 GMT -5
WrestleMania was a steaming pile. Roadblock just felt like an episode of RAW where we didn't have to sit through stupid skits. Pretty much why all I consume of WWE is mainly just their PPVs. The weekly shows are just trying to sell it to you....well, sold, you have my $10, I'll spare 20+ hours or whatever it is every month. That being said, my expectations are low, so I'm usually pretty entertained. WWE has turned me off to watching Raw by basically posting all the big moments seconds after they happen on Facebook. Oh well, either way, here's my 10 bucks. I've watched wrestling since the early 90s and consider myself a big fan for someone in their 30s, but I'll spare myself the network/social media advertising and some bits written by bitter and/or lame writers.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Dec 19, 2016 4:07:17 GMT -5
I ended up fast-forwarding through most.
There's just something about the Raw roster where very few of the guys can keep my interest.
I couldn't care less about Rollins, I find him extremely boring and tend to find myself fast-forwarding his matches because I just can't get into them. I also don't give a shit about Reigns so do the same for him. I do quite like Jericho and Owens but the fact they're feuding with two guys I find absolutely boring I just can't get into their storylines. Banks vs Charlotte I'm beyond tired of.
The Zayn vs Braun storyline is alright and I'm enjoying the tag division. The Cruisers is just OK.
Overall though I just can't get invested in the show. Unlike Smackdown where AJ and Miz are awesome. the Ambrose/Elsworth storyline is entertaining enough. The Wyatts have become interesting again and Bliss vs Becky is a good feud (as is Carmella/Nattie/Nikki). The only dud is Ziggler.
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King Devitt
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Post by King Devitt on Dec 19, 2016 6:38:01 GMT -5
The hell it ain't, not with that New Day v Sheamus/Cesaro match on it. Enjoyed most of the card, actually. Nothing against you guys, but it helps a lot when you're actually by yourself and you can judge things without being skewed by the masses. Same. The only match I didn't care about was the main event, and looked up from my phone at the end. For my money, Clash of Champions, and WM were wayyyyyyyy worse than this. Let's not blame people hating the card on being "Skewed by the masses" dude, if I had watched this shit by myself I would have hated it just as much. Like feel free to like it but stop devaluing opinions like that on the other end. He's got a point though, not this card mind ya, but a good point. I cannot count the number of times I've watched a show without being in the live threads and loved them, only to see the people who dominate those threads shitting all over it. You know, maybe they didn't like it but so many seem to rush off for jokes and shots at things they miss the meat of a show and miss that the very things they complain about not happening actually happened. Yeah shows have sucked but I'll agree that the live threads have made them worse than improved then recently. This is precisely why I don't watch live with "everyone" else.
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Post by 111111 on Dec 19, 2016 6:56:52 GMT -5
It was background noise.
Like literally static, I was at the point where I didn't give a crap about anything I was being presented spent most the show playing on my phone and switched off halfway through.
Two of these generic events a month is not working.
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Post by edgestar on Dec 19, 2016 7:07:04 GMT -5
Miz stole it and give it to Dean. GOD DAMN IT edgestar!! I was worried about what he was up to!!
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 19, 2016 7:31:10 GMT -5
WM only good match was the IC title. So yeh , for such a long show , proves how bad it was
Even Lesnar vs Ambrose which was supposed to be instant money completely sucked
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Dec 19, 2016 7:36:46 GMT -5
I vote Mania as the worst of the year. Very plodding show that dragged out and didn't seem to have any "feel good" moments.
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