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Post by Starshine on May 31, 2017 19:36:24 GMT -5
I don't see any problem with taking ques from Episode 4. Following the prequels they really needed to establish what new direction they were taking these movies in. They decided to play it safe and use familiar plot beats to set their new stage and it worked gangbusters. Though with that said, now that they've gained wide fan confidence, they should try to create more separation from the old films. If the next one turns out to be a similar retelling of Empire, then I'll have a problem with it.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on May 31, 2017 19:42:27 GMT -5
Eh I enjoyed it. Fun characters, memorable moments, excellent score. I'm a star wars fanboy so I don't generally look at the star wars movies with a critics eye. While I'm not a fan of episodes 1 & 2 I still enjoy them as a fan of the series (for the most part, I have recently just skipped Episode 1 in my repeated viewings). Force Awakens is the same thing for me, though I do believe it's better than the prequels by far. But that's just, like, my opinion man.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on May 31, 2017 20:01:23 GMT -5
and we start in the same circle again.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 21:09:16 GMT -5
Oh, Rey IS a Mary Sue!
I don't care what anyone says.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 21:15:47 GMT -5
Meh, to each his own I guess. Oh wait, this is the Internet, hang on. YOU'RE WORSE THAN HITLER!!!!!!!!! No, silly. That's anybody who likes the prequels.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on May 31, 2017 21:29:06 GMT -5
except Kilo Ren was kicking her ass until he said "...the Force". then she does a Matrix download and suddenly she remembers how to fight and suddenly he's injuries become a factor, so that suddenly makes it plausible within the context of that created universe for her to beat him? no, it was a badly written scene. throughout the entirety of the original Star Wars movie, Luke is able to accomplish a grand total two things using the force: blocking one shot from the training droid and blowing up the Death Star (after being told to do so by ghost Obi Wan). the rest of the time he's whining because he can't do this and he can't do that. Rey on the other hand is able to (suddenly) beat someone with much more experience with the Force and fighting with a lightsaber, do a Jedi mind trick, can shoot anything, fix anything, fly anything, speaking any language... Did you miss the part where he was almost bent over and punching himself when he was fighting Finn? Did you forget that they went back and forth until he started to push her back. Then she opened herself up to the Force. That's how that works. i'm sorry, but you left yourself open for it. if that's how the Force worked, they wouldn't need train people on how to use the Force. i did not miss Kylo Ren punching himself on his wound, just like i don't miss when wrestlers, after getting the crap beat of them, start hitting themselves to psych themselves up. that's what he was doing. he was psyching himself. he may as well have been beating in tune with the Rocky music. if the wound was seriously impacting his ability fight, why would he intentionally make it worse? he wasn't. he was making himself harder. making himself stronger. making himself better! clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose! and being able to fly any ship in the galaxy? being able to shoot the wings off a fly at 1000 yards ten seconds after she learns how to take the safety off a blaster? let me ask, what is her flaw? what's her weakness, what's preventing her from accomplishing her goals, what must she overcome to become the hero she's meant to be? people say she has abandonment issues because she was left on Not Tatooine, except she trusts everyone who is good and distrusts everyone who is bad, so abandonment issues doesn't play. after a bad acid trip when she touches the lightsaber, she briefly freaks out and says she wants nothing to do with the Force. but what does she do as soon as she gets caught? "These aren't the droids you're looking for." she has no real weakness, therefore she has nothing to overcome. all Kylo Ren has to say is "blah blah blah the Force", and that's it? she suddenly has what's needed to defeat him? that is a poorly developed character. a fun one, i like her, but she is poorly developed. Luke went from piloting a speeder to piloting a single-seater starship co-piloted by a droid. a stronger argument could be made that he aimed, and that's how he was able to shoot the button, because he aimed at it and hit it. and both he and Han where shooting at the Storm Troopers, and it can't stated with certain who the two Troopers killed in that exchange were shot by. Luke also definitely go one running back to Falcon, so unless Han can't hit the broad side of a barn, i'm gonna put at that one certified kill and one possible kill for Luke. but even still, if all this is the sum total of Luke's abilities in the original, it ain't shit compared to Rey. - Luke can't figure out how to playback Leia's entire message in R2, and doesn't realize the panel he's shooting extends the bridge. Rey instructed Han on how to fix the Millennium Falcon. - Luke needs C3PO to translate everything for him. Rey speaks droid, she speak wookie, she speaks dothraki, she speaks klingon... - Luke takes about a dozen shots to kill two...(hell, i'll just give him the third) three Storm Troopers. Rey replaces Hawkeye in The Avengers five seconds after discovering you need to take the safety off in order shoot - Luke goes from piloting a speeder to piloting a tiny ship (co-piloted by a droid) through a long, wide, straight trench. Rey goes from piloting a motorcycle-thingy shaped like a giant popsicle to piloting the Millennium Falcon...through a downed Star Destroyer...while being chased by Tie Fighters. - Luke: "But with the blast shield down, I can't even see". Rey: "You will remove these restraints and leave this cell with the door open" all Luke has is he blew up the Death Star. Rey can fight and fly and fix and speak and do mind tricks and probably levitate and a half dozen other things
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 31, 2017 21:51:47 GMT -5
Rey's pretty obviously had some sort of training pre when we meet her. We just haven't seen it yet.
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Post by xCompackx on May 31, 2017 22:21:02 GMT -5
Why are we downplaying the effects the Force can have on untrained people? Like, Luke destroyed an entire f***ing space station by shooting a missile into a tiny hole located in a specific spot and did so without any computer guidance. You're telling me that Rey's "needed three attempts" mind trick that only happened after touching her maybe-relative's lightsaber, piloting a ship, and defeating a guy who was probably unfocused after killing his father and being injured is more impressive than that?
Hell, Anakin as a child could build a podracer, speak multiple languages, build a functioning robot, pilot a ship and destroy a critical Trade Federation ship, and pass the Jedi trials. The Force is a crazy thing.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on May 31, 2017 22:23:35 GMT -5
You lost me at "Mary Sue." I don't get why people don't understand that Rey was fighting a severely injured and mentally tormented Kylo? He just took a direct hit from Chewie's bowcaster and kept fighting. That blew Stormtroopers off of their feet. Kylo kept fighting so of course Rey was able to take advantage of that. Plus he was struggling with what he just did. You know killing his father? You don't remember Han speaking to Rey and Finn about the Jedi? "Thought it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force. The Jedi... All of it... It's all true." So Rey is an issue because she pulled off a Jedi mind trick on a first order trooper, but Luke blowing up the Death Star is what? I don't she even close to mastering the Force. She was able to tap into it, and as we have seen in past movies, that can be done with new Force users. You know Luke blowing up the Death Star. Anakin using force reflexes during the pod race. Agreed with all of this. When it comes to newbie Force feats of heroism, I think Rey being able to hold her own in a lightsaber duel against a seriously injured Kylo Ren (who is more raw power than anything else; his own training is lacking) while a planet is coming apart around them is about as believable as, if not moreso than, Luke using the Force to guide a proton torpedo perfectly down a 2 meter-wide shaft to a reactor core. Also, her Jedi mind trick worked on the stormtrooper because storm-troopers are weak willed and weak minded grunts whose only purpose is to shoot things and serve as cannon fodder. We're talking about "taking a 10" in terms of chances of success here, to use d20 terminology. Weak-willed might be putting it mildly for First Order stormtroopers. The one advantage they have over their imperial counterparts also makes them much more prone to Jedi Mind Tricks: The training and brainwashing of these troopers from a very early age. So, in actuality, they have no will at all to speak of. It was all beaten out of them as children. It says something that the one First Order trooper that ever learned to think for himself immediately defected. And while Kylo Ren is powerful, he really doesn't have that much more training than Rey does. Rey at least has extensive real-world fighting training having to fend for herself against other scavengers on Jakku from the time of she was dropped off. Guarantee you that she had to struggle to at first against opponents bigger and stronger than she was. Forcing her to have to get better in order to even have a chance to eat a halfway decent meal. Ben was taught in a temple by a man who clearly wasn't ready for the burden of being a master himself in Luke Skywalker. Whatever combat experience he has was against people he was always better than in terms of raw power. He probably never had to truly test himself. Add all of that to the fact that he was both mentally and emotionally damaged by the time of the duel in the forest, and it's not all that unrealistic to see him get caught off guard. Especially considering he was getting increasingly arrogant as the fight went on. I mean, he could have pushed Rey from the precipice but instead, he decided to taunt her.
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Glitch
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Post by Glitch on May 31, 2017 23:22:21 GMT -5
Huh. So it's that time of the week again.
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Post by edgestar on May 31, 2017 23:23:54 GMT -5
My brother took me with him to go see it, so it has that value to me. Otherwise, I've only seen it that one time
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on May 31, 2017 23:26:27 GMT -5
Moving aside from Luke as an example of what an untrained Force-sensitive person can do, just look at what Poe can do. I don't think they've flat out stated it yet but it is canon via the new EU that Poe grew up around a Force-sensitive tree that Luke gave his parents as a gift, and well, we've seen Poe's insane piloting skills, so it is quite likely he is Force-sensitive. So, yeah. There you go. Poe is a good example of what the Force can do with those who can access it but aren't trained in it.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jun 1, 2017 0:04:08 GMT -5
Yeah, a big part of the criticism of Rey that bothers me is that "She held her own against Kylo Ren" is used as a criticism. It's pretty well established that, training-wise, Ren only knows the Dark Side "bare bones", and mostly gets by on brute force and the intimidation that comes with being a Darth Vader cosplayer. Hell, he can't even build his lightsaber properly, for pete's sake. Beating him, while hurt, in a duel is not an accomplishment worth trumpeting.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Jun 1, 2017 0:08:09 GMT -5
I thought Rogue One was a much more interesting film overall. Probably because Rogue One felt like a war film that was suitably bleak but it wasn't a miserable experience to sit through (that a lot of bleak war films suffer from) and then end makes it clear that they didn't die for nothing.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jun 1, 2017 0:25:55 GMT -5
Did you miss the part where he was almost bent over and punching himself when he was fighting Finn? Did you forget that they went back and forth until he started to push her back. Then she opened herself up to the Force. That's how that works. i'm sorry, but you left yourself open for it. if that's how the Force worked, they wouldn't need train people on how to use the Force. i did not miss Kylo Ren punching himself on his wound, just like i don't miss when wrestlers, after getting the crap beat of them, start hitting themselves to psych themselves up. that's what he was doing. he was psyching himself. he may as well have been beating in tune with the Rocky music. if the wound was seriously impacting his ability fight, why would he intentionally make it worse? he wasn't. he was making himself harder. making himself stronger. making himself better! clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose! and being able to fly any ship in the galaxy? being able to shoot the wings off a fly at 1000 yards ten seconds after she learns how to take the safety off a blaster? let me ask, what is her flaw? what's her weakness, what's preventing her from accomplishing her goals, what must she overcome to become the hero she's meant to be? people say she has abandonment issues because she was left on Not Tatooine, except she trusts everyone who is good and distrusts everyone who is bad, so abandonment issues doesn't play. after a bad acid trip when she touches the lightsaber, she briefly freaks out and says she wants nothing to do with the Force. but what does she do as soon as she gets caught? "These aren't the droids you're looking for." she has no real weakness, therefore she has nothing to overcome. all Kylo Ren has to say is "blah blah blah the Force", and that's it? she suddenly has what's needed to defeat him? that is a poorly developed character. a fun one, i like her, but she is poorly developed. Luke went from piloting a speeder to piloting a single-seater starship co-piloted by a droid. a stronger argument could be made that he aimed, and that's how he was able to shoot the button, because he aimed at it and hit it. and both he and Han where shooting at the Storm Troopers, and it can't stated with certain who the two Troopers killed in that exchange were shot by. Luke also definitely go one running back to Falcon, so unless Han can't hit the broad side of a barn, i'm gonna put at that one certified kill and one possible kill for Luke. but even still, if all this is the sum total of Luke's abilities in the original, it ain't shit compared to Rey. - Luke can't figure out how to playback Leia's entire message in R2, and doesn't realize the panel he's shooting extends the bridge. Rey instructed Han on how to fix the Millennium Falcon. - Luke needs C3PO to translate everything for him. Rey speaks droid, she speak wookie, she speaks dothraki, she speaks klingon... - Luke takes about a dozen shots to kill two...(hell, i'll just give him the third) three Storm Troopers. Rey replaces Hawkeye in The Avengers five seconds after discovering you need to take the safety off in order shoot - Luke goes from piloting a speeder to piloting a tiny ship (co-piloted by a droid) through a long, wide, straight trench. Rey goes from piloting a motorcycle-thingy shaped like a giant popsicle to piloting the Millennium Falcon...through a downed Star Destroyer...while being chased by Tie Fighters. - Luke: "But with the blast shield down, I can't even see". Rey: "You will remove these restraints and leave this cell with the door open" all Luke has is he blew up the Death Star. Rey can fight and fly and fix and speak and do mind tricks and probably levitate and a half dozen other things As far as Kylo hitting himself, it impacts the wound and the adrenaline helps to continue fighting. I've used it in acting before and loved it as soon as I saw it as it's a touch of realism, and Driver was in the military, he knows his shit
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SmashTV
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Post by SmashTV on Jun 1, 2017 0:29:20 GMT -5
It was better than the prequels, and that was all I needed. I loved it from beginning to end, and while it has faults it pressed all of my fanboy buttons.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 1, 2017 0:35:15 GMT -5
Moving aside from Luke as an example of what an untrained Force-sensitive person can do, just look at what Poe can do. I don't think they've flat out stated it yet but it is canon via the new EU that Poe grew up around a Force-sensitive tree that Luke gave his parents as a gift, and well, we've seen Poe's insane piloting skills, so it is quite likely he is Force-sensitive. So, yeah. There you go. Poe is a good example of what the Force can do with those who can access it but aren't trained in it. From the sounds of things, the new canon is basically saying that the force is something that everyone feels a connection to but, only a select few are sensitive enough to be as strong in or be able to manipulate it like the Anakin Skywalkers of the world. Look at Chirrut Imwe from Rogue One. It's clear that he feels a connection to the force as exemplified by him noticing the "force move darkly" through Cassian, and the now-famous "I'm one with the force, and the force is with me" moment on Scarif. However, he's no Jedi Knight. You would never be able to see him do the many amazing things that we've seen the likes of Mace Windu pull off. And, hopefully, you won't see a Chirrut force ghost running around anytime soon. And considering the idea of the force was inspired by the idea of "chi" energy, it makes sense.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 1, 2017 0:49:01 GMT -5
Kylo is also powerful, but undisciplined as shit. Witness the temper tantrums that destroyed consoles earlier in the movie.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 1, 2017 1:54:11 GMT -5
Kylo is also powerful, but undisciplined as shit. Witness the temper tantrums that destroyed consoles earlier in the movie. Hell, Snoke specifically orders Hux to retrieve Ren so he can go about finishing his training. Kylo Ren is less Darth Vader and more 12 year-old Anakin.
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Post by BorneAgain on Jun 1, 2017 8:36:25 GMT -5
Kylo is also powerful, but undisciplined as shit. Witness the temper tantrums that destroyed consoles earlier in the movie. Hell, Snoke specifically orders Hux to retrieve Ren so he can go about finishing his training. Kylo Ren is less Darth Vader and more 12 year-old Anakin. Dark Helmet.
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