Post by mcmahonfan85 on Aug 14, 2017 12:36:17 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to go with one from one of the first ROH shows, involving Mikey Whipwreck's students (S.A.T., Divine Storm, Amazing Red). I believe the two people involved in the actual spot were Chris Divine and one of the Maximos, and they did the obligatory standoff sequence that was done at least once per indie show (sometimes more) during the early 2000s: legsweep, cover, kick out, legsweep, cover, kick out, kip up, standoff. the problem was they were doing it 90 miles an hour (cause they're super awesome), and Divine broke up his own pin without the other guy kicking out. before he fully pinned the guy, he rolled right off him. so that's my pick. others may have done more flips or flashy reversals, but at least they did them well. this was a guy screwing up a sequence that not only has been done to death, but is also a training drill in a lot of wrestling schools, because he wanted to do it at the speed of light
This wouldn't be half as bad if Davey did the suplex to the floor but they have Eddie do it instead, the guy who was just f***ing superplexed.
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the sitting up like a zombie thing I can kinda buy into, but the walking the ropes thing - most guys move fast enough or with enough agility that I can buy the other guy being distracted long enough for him to get the move off, but with 'Taker it was always so painfully obvious the other guy was doing his best to not throw him off balance.
I'm quite surprised. I didn't think that the Osprey/Ricochet thing would overtake the Eddie Edwards/Davey Richards superplex spot as the go-to thing for stuff like this.
I definitely agree though. Ricochet and Will Osprey are cool wrestlers but that spot always irks me when I see it.
Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Aug 14, 2017 15:28:57 GMT -5
I get so tired of threads like this, and posts about "This takes me right out of the match" or "This makes it look so fake".
Guys, wrestling IS fake. It is not a real fight. You know what it look fake? The fact that 2 guys can beat the holy hell out of each other for an hour and come out without a scratch.
How many times have you ever seen a vertical suplex in a fight? Or an Irish whip? Or an arm wringer? Or a collar-and-elbow lock up? How many times in a real fight have you seen someone sit someone on a higher surface and then sit there waiting on another guy to climb up and do a move on them?
It's entertainment. It's a Hollywood fight scene being performed in front of you. Wrestling hasn't been realistic since it left the carny sideshows and became entertainment. And you know why? Because without the showmanship, it's f***ing boring.
Its hard to find clips of it now but when Minoru Suzuki hit a Gotch Piledriver on Mecha Mummy in the Amazon Rainforest with the subsequent explosion bringing him back to Japan and turning him into mecha Suzuki.
I get so tired of threads like this, and posts about "This takes me right out of the match" or "This makes it look so fake".
Guys, wrestling IS fake. It is not a real fight. You know what it look fake? The fact that 2 guys can beat the holy hell out of each other for an hour and come out without a scratch.
How many times have you ever seen a vertical suplex in a fight? Or an Irish whip? Or an arm wringer? Or a collar-and-elbow lock up? How many times in a real fight have you seen someone sit someone on a higher surface and then sit there waiting on another guy to climb up and do a move on them?
It's entertainment. It's a Hollywood fight scene being performed in front of you. Wrestling hasn't been realistic since it left the carny sideshows and became entertainment. And you know why? Because without the showmanship, it's f***ing boring.
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 14, 2017 21:09:58 GMT -5
Let it be said also that I GODDAMN LOVE wrestling like this, so whatever else anyone says, this is an appreciation thread for me.
"She might have 12 times the knowledge and experience of wrestling that I do, but this kid's probably never dropped out of high school & made her parents cry, probably never had to quit being an idol thanks to depression, probably never failed the job interview for an escort club. I got my own 12 years of experience."
Post by Blindkarevik on Aug 14, 2017 21:37:40 GMT -5
I always think it's funny when people rag on Cornette when he says how terrible Kenny Omega is, based on his comedy wrestling of old. Wrestling is a big enough entity to consist of genres.... you're not going to like everything and some stuff you're gonna absolutely hate even though a section of the audience loves it. We may groan at Roman Reigns spouting off another promo where he tries to sound cool but just comes off as awkward and forced, but there is a section of the crowd that's eating it up and just wanting him to absolutely destroy his next opponent. You may hate deathmatch wrestling, but CZW has existed as an entity for two decades so there's definitely a market for it, even these spotfest matches... I like them due to how they are presented.
As long as it's booked in a way that plays to its strengths, Ricochet/Ospreay matches are fun! The only thing is, you really can't put drama into those matches, you can't really tell a story. It's meant to be a giant firework show where you just see crazy shit happen for 20 minutes. Now if you want to add story and drama into a match, you need proper selling above all, it's the only way to completely draw a crowd in and you're not going to get it in a spotfest. I definitely see the merit in how people can dislike spotfests and how they can view an entire show as one string of events... how two guys can no-sell all offense for 15 minutes, then in the next match have a single DDT mean death.... it's definitely silly in that context. Personally, I find the responsibility of the performers to draw me into the match happening right now. I have no problem viewing each match as a bunch of parts that fit into a whole evening of entertainment, I'm cool with a dramatic blood feud, followed by a comedy match that pokes fun at wrestling tropes to lighten the mood, to a technical masterpiece, to a spotfest where the only thing that is sold is the final pinfall. If it's all done well, I'll look at everything on its own merits.
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As long as it's booked in a way that plays to its strengths, Ricochet/Ospreay matches are fun! The only thing is, you really can't put drama into those matches, you can't really tell a story. It's meant to be a giant firework show where you just see crazy shit happen for 20 minutes. Now if you want to add story and drama into a match, you need proper selling above all, it's the only way to completely draw a crowd in and you're not going to get it in a spotfest.
This isn't true, though. Spotfests can easily have psychology, the audience just needs to accept that none of the moves hurt that much. Light selling and 'not having a story' have nothing to do with one another.
"She might have 12 times the knowledge and experience of wrestling that I do, but this kid's probably never dropped out of high school & made her parents cry, probably never had to quit being an idol thanks to depression, probably never failed the job interview for an escort club. I got my own 12 years of experience."
Post by KobashiChop on Aug 15, 2017 5:26:40 GMT -5
I love the Ricochet/Ospreay match because that whole style is both guys calling card, so it made sense that it became a game of one upping the other over who could flip out. Not everything needs to be a big bloody back and forth. There was no heat, no big feud going in, i like what they were going for.
If they had been feuding for months and this was a street fight, then they had the exact same match, it wouldve looked stupid.
Ricochet's counter was awesome, and if the two wrestlers had looked at each other, then both did the bounce off the ropes, that'd look a bit more like a "your move" matching each other moment, but they just shoot off without looking at each other and decide to do the same thing for no real reason other than to pat themselves on the back. It doesn't anger me or anything, it just was something that could have been cooler had they shown a teensy bit more restraint.
I always think it's funny when people rag on Cornette when he says how terrible Kenny Omega is, based on his comedy wrestling of old. Wrestling is a big enough entity to consist of genres.... you're not going to like everything and some stuff you're gonna absolutely hate even though a section of the audience loves it.
Cornette wasn't saying that. If he was, I and a lot of people would have less of a problem because that's his opinion.
He was saying people like Omega and Ibushi who do comedy wrestling are killing the credibility of the business so shouldn't get work again because of it, no matter how good they are as workers and how much money they might make for promoters and companies.
Hell, Cornette compared Omega's ability to Hitler as a painter. That wasn't hyperbole, he actually tweeted that.
I always think it's funny when people rag on Cornette when he says how terrible Kenny Omega is, based on his comedy wrestling of old. Wrestling is a big enough entity to consist of genres.... you're not going to like everything and some stuff you're gonna absolutely hate even though a section of the audience loves it.
Cornette wasn't saying that. If he was, I and a lot of people would have less of a problem because that's his opinion.
He was saying people like Omega and Ibushi who do comedy wrestling are killing the credibility of the business so shouldn't get work again because of it, no matter how good they are as workers and how much money they might make for promoters and companies.
Hell, Cornette compared Omega's ability to Hitler as a painter. That wasn't hyperbole, he actually tweeted that.
Post by crashmatsbazz on Aug 15, 2017 9:45:39 GMT -5
the 619, especially if rey waits a moment for the pop then shouts 619, the dude he is wrestling has to lay across the ropes, unless Rey Mysterio has some glue he applied before the other guy fell on the ropes then just pick yourself up, its only a bloody drop toe hold to the second rope!!!
the 619, especially if rey waits a moment for the pop then shouts 619, the dude he is wrestling has to lay across the ropes, unless Rey Mysterio has some glue he applied before the other guy fell on the ropes then just pick yourself up, its only a bloody drop toe hold to the second rope!!!
Weirdly, hitting the ropes like that hurts like a bitch, especially if you misjudge even a little.
That's honestly the worst part of the entire series of moves.
Personally, I don't get the hate. I see this as too world-class, high-flyers trying to out due the other, and ending it in a stale-mate. Honestly, if you watch the rest of the match, this is the most psychology put into it. It is impressive despite the lack of "psychology, and to me, proves the exception to the rule that every match should have psychology.