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Post by corndog on Aug 26, 2017 1:24:39 GMT -5
I think a major part of it is Vince thinking "Who the hell is this guy, who is leaving the company, to tell me who he will and will not job the title against?" We know from the leaked HHH/HBK/Vince discussions that the plan was always to do Shawn/Austin at WM (at least by Nov. 1997) so the best way to get to that point was Shawn winning the title and Bret leaves. What I'm sort of baffled by is why even put the title on Bret anyway? His last run was basically nothing, just feuding 2nd from the top with The Patriot and Vader. They could have just gotten around the Summerslam situation by having Shawn bash both men with a chair and walk away, no decision. Then they could do the HBK/Taker feud and have Kane debut and cost Taker the title at HIAC in Oct. Even if you do Bret/Shawn at Survivor Series at least he doesn't have the belt going in and Vince is in a position to do a DQ or whatever. Bret was staying with the company as of Summerslam. But if all is true and Vince knew he was going to let Bret go to WCW, that is a damn good point. Taker keeps the belt and Shawn could get the belt at HIAC or even Royal Rumble, really didn't matter because he was always going to drop it to Austin at WM.
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J. Hova
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Post by J. Hova on Aug 26, 2017 3:32:47 GMT -5
You know for as much crap as Vince gets on this board for his decisions nowadays, he was absolutely idiotic back then for this. Your top guy is leaving for your major competitor and you don't bother to take the title off him on a RAW a month prior or do a loser leaves town angle? Just off the top of my head I can think of these guys to take the strap on a RAW:
1. HBK 2. Austin 3. Shamrock 4. The Rock 5. The Undertaker 6. Kane
I'm sure I'm forgetting someone and those aren't in order. That whole deal is what makes me think it was a work in the far reaches of my mind. I'm split about 80/20 on it being screwjob/work.
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Post by mauled on Aug 26, 2017 4:47:00 GMT -5
I think a major part of it is Vince thinking "Who the hell is this guy, who is leaving the company, to tell me who he will and will not job the title against?" We know from the leaked HHH/HBK/Vince discussions that the plan was always to do Shawn/Austin at WM (at least by Nov. 1997) so the best way to get to that point was Shawn winning the title and Bret leaves. What I'm sort of baffled by is why even put the title on Bret anyway? His last run was basically nothing, just feuding 2nd from the top with The Patriot and Vader. They could have just gotten around the Summerslam situation by having Shawn bash both men with a chair and walk away, no decision. Then they could do the HBK/Taker feud and have Kane debut and cost Taker the title at HIAC in Oct. Even if you do Bret/Shawn at Survivor Series at least he doesn't have the belt going in and Vince is in a position to do a DQ or whatever. Bret was staying with the company as of Summerslam. But if all is true and Vince knew he was going to let Bret go to WCW, that is a damn good point. Taker keeps the belt and Shawn could get the belt at HIAC or even Royal Rumble, really didn't matter because he was always going to drop it to Austin at WM. Bret wrestled Taker at One Night only after Summerslam. It was there best match and Bret says it was his last great match in the WWF. Vince could easily have got the belt on Taker there
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Aug 26, 2017 16:46:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure I've ever heard someone take wrestling as seriously as Bret. He always seemed like too much of a jam up guy to do something like steal a title. Apart from Shawn Michaels. He refused to drop how many belts in a pretend fight?
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Pushed to the Moon
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Aug 26, 2017 17:08:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure I've ever heard someone take wrestling as seriously as Bret. He always seemed like too much of a jam up guy to do something like steal a title. Apart from Shawn Michaels. He refused to drop how many belts in a pretend fight? I think he took his spot seriously but I don't think he had the reverence and respect for wrestling that Bret has. I definitely think if Shawn was the one going to WCW he would have been dickish enough to take the belt.
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Post by MC Blowfish on Aug 27, 2017 12:09:04 GMT -5
I understand why he was concerned about the belt. I'm sure somewhere deep inside Vince knew Bret wouldn't screw him. He had to be careful at that point as well.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Aug 27, 2017 21:00:15 GMT -5
You know for as much crap as Vince gets on this board for his decisions nowadays, he was absolutely idiotic back then for this. Your top guy is leaving for your major competitor and you don't bother to take the title off him on a RAW a month prior or do a loser leaves town angle? Just off the top of my head I can think of these guys to take the strap on a RAW: 1. HBK 2. Austin 3. Shamrock 4. The Rock 5. The Undertaker 6. Kane I'm sure I'm forgetting someone and those aren't in order. That whole deal is what makes me think it was a work in the far reaches of my mind. I'm split about 80/20 on it being screwjob/work. In the back of his mind, Vince McMahon must have known he could not afford Bret Hart well before Survivor Series. Why even put the title on him? The best scenario for me? Somehow get the title on Owen Hart and transition it to Shawn Michaels or Austin as he had a connection with both via Bret as well as his own history - injured both (kayfabe and real) just before the biggest pushes in either's career.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 21:37:32 GMT -5
people forget that the only reason he was leaving was that Vince reneged on a 10 year contract Bret was all in for
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Aug 27, 2017 21:48:03 GMT -5
people forget that the only reason he was leaving was that Vince reneged on a 10 year contract Bret was all in for 20 year contract. Just think, if Vince hadn't done that Bret's contract would've expired only just this summer.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Aug 28, 2017 16:10:54 GMT -5
If I'm Vince McMahon in doing everything I can to make sure Bret Hart isn't the champion, and isn't going to WCW without dropping that title to someone else. Sorry to Bret but any excuses for him to walk out of that match remaining champion are totally self serving to Bret and counterproductive to the WWF moving forward.
Vince gave Bret an absolute gift by having him and the hottest storyline in wrestling go with him to WCW. Both Bret and WCW fumbled the ball on that and Bret's career in WCW was atrocious and he was completely just another con in the wheel.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 28, 2017 17:25:29 GMT -5
people forget that the only reason he was leaving was that Vince reneged on a 10 year contract Bret was all in for But he also told Bret that he couldn't keep up that contract and advised him to seek the most money he could At the end of the day as been said before all parties could have handled this situation much better but to answer the OP yes I do think Bret would have taken the WWF belt
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Post by evilone on Aug 28, 2017 18:15:57 GMT -5
1. Bret didn't want to be a champion on his exit from WWF 2. He didn't want to drop it to Shawn as he considered it a final blow after Vince canceled out on him. Sole reason Vince signed Bret for such contract is because he believed him.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Aug 28, 2017 22:12:57 GMT -5
If I'm Vince McMahon in doing everything I can to make sure Bret Hart isn't the champion, and isn't going to WCW without dropping that title to someone else. It's not as if Bret was hellbent on staying champ until he left. Bret was still under contract for three more weeks and offered to drop the title to anybody and at any time before his contact expired as long as it wasn't to HBK.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Aug 29, 2017 0:36:54 GMT -5
people forget that the only reason he was leaving was that Vince reneged on a 10 year contract Bret was all in for But he also told Bret that he couldn't keep up that contract and advised him to seek the most money he could At the end of the day as been said before all parties could have handled this situation much better but to answer the OP yes I do think Bret would have taken the WWF belt Vince what's his name couldn't afford to pay him, gah! Bret Hart's contract was structured as $1.5m Base pay per year for three years as a performer and then I believe 250k a year base pay in a backstage role till this year. I don't know what Vince McMahon was thinking as Bret Hart offered to take 250k a year instead, with the millions paid in towards the end of the contract, where he hoped McMahon was in a better financial state. Still the boss got rid.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 29, 2017 1:38:23 GMT -5
But he also told Bret that he couldn't keep up that contract and advised him to seek the most money he could At the end of the day as been said before all parties could have handled this situation much better but to answer the OP yes I do think Bret would have taken the WWF belt Vince what's his name couldn't afford to pay him, gah! Bret Hart's contract was structured as $1.5m Base pay per year for three years as a performer and then I believe 250k a year base pay in a backstage role till this year. I don't know what Vince McMahon was thinking as Bret Hart offered to take 250k a year instead, with the millions paid in towards the end of the contract, where he hoped McMahon was in a better financial state. Still the boss got rid. Hmm a part of me wants to say Vince wanted to pay Bret what he was worth but this story is so finicky and everyone has their own side of the story.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Aug 29, 2017 5:33:32 GMT -5
Vince what's his name couldn't afford to pay him, gah! Bret Hart's contract was structured as $1.5m Base pay per year for three years as a performer and then I believe 250k a year base pay in a backstage role till this year. I don't know what Vince McMahon was thinking as Bret Hart offered to take 250k a year instead, with the millions paid in towards the end of the contract, where he hoped McMahon was in a better financial state. Still the boss got rid. Hmm a part of me wants to say Vince wanted to pay Bret what he was worth but this story is so finicky and everyone has their own side of the story. I'm sure the McMahon ego was also in play - how dare a worker get one over him. He's Vince McMahon goddammit!
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 29, 2017 5:49:09 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest, and I say this with quite a low opinion of late 90s Shawn: Bret was being kind of a baby about the match to begin with. The f*** did it matter who beat him when he was going to be gone, anyway? Like, Bret is, usually, a very professional guy, but he was not being very professional about this, nor was he being professional to bitch to papers, etc, about how the title was taken from him. He he was making it all very personal for something that would soon not even involve him, anyway.
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Post by The Barber on Aug 29, 2017 7:16:11 GMT -5
I gotta ask: Am I the only one who thinks it was a work?
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Post by willywonka666 on Aug 29, 2017 7:38:25 GMT -5
Often times I've found, when someone accuses you of something you didn't do, it's because they would have done it. Vince asked Race to do it, got Flair to do it and shit his pants when Medusa did it to him. Bret has more integrity, though I wouldn't have blamed him one goddamn bit.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 29, 2017 7:40:27 GMT -5
Often times I've found, when someone accuses you of something you didn't do, it's because they would have done it. Vince asked Race to do it, got Flair to do it and shit his pants when Medusa did it to him. Bret has more integrity, though I wouldn't have blamed him one goddamn bit. Flair doing it was all on Jim Herd. Dude practically told him to do it when he refused to pay for the deposit, despite even being reminded about it by Flair.
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