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Post by The Thread Barbi on Aug 29, 2017 10:10:21 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest, and I say this with quite a low opinion of late 90s Shawn: Bret was being kind of a baby about the match to begin with. The f*** did it matter who beat him when he was going to be gone, anyway? Like, Bret is, usually, a very professional guy, but he was not being very professional about this, nor was he being professional to bitch to papers, etc, about how the title was taken from him. He he was making it all very personal for something that would soon not even involve him, anyway. A difficult one to judge on for me. All the mileage Bret Hart put in over, what, 13 or 14 years? Doing absolutely everything asked off him up until that point, including dropping the title to an over the hill Bob Backlund and then loitering in midcard fueds with a royal dentist. So he's refused to put over Shawn Michaels in his final match. Surely he's earned that. Just like Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair and Undertaker got to pick and choose how they go out.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 29, 2017 10:29:52 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest, and I say this with quite a low opinion of late 90s Shawn: Bret was being kind of a baby about the match to begin with. The f*** did it matter who beat him when he was going to be gone, anyway? Like, Bret is, usually, a very professional guy, but he was not being very professional about this, nor was he being professional to bitch to papers, etc, about how the title was taken from him. He he was making it all very personal for something that would soon not even involve him, anyway. A difficult one to judge on for me. All the mileage Bret Hart put in over, what, 13 or 14 years? Doing absolutely everything asked off him up until that point, including dropping the title to an over the hill Bob Backlund and then loitering in midcard fueds with a royal dentist. So he's refused to put over Shawn Michaels in his final match. Surely he's earned that. Just like Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair and Undertaker got to pick and choose how they go out. It's still very selfish of Bret tho at the end. However, I believe it was in his contract that he was able to make these decisions as a failsafe so he wouldn't be jobbed and buried to everyone under the sun.
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Post by Tiffany Stratton's Daddy on Aug 29, 2017 11:23:57 GMT -5
After the Madusa incident, I don't blame Vince playing it safe.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Aug 29, 2017 11:45:23 GMT -5
A difficult one to judge on for me. All the mileage Bret Hart put in over, what, 13 or 14 years? Doing absolutely everything asked off him up until that point, including dropping the title to an over the hill Bob Backlund and then loitering in midcard fueds with a royal dentist. So he's refused to put over Shawn Michaels in his final match. Surely he's earned that. Just like Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair and Undertaker got to pick and choose how they go out. It's still very selfish of Bret tho at the end. However, I believe it was in his contract that he was able to make these decisions as a failsafe so he wouldn't be jobbed and buried to everyone under the sun. Probably a lot less selfish than Ultimate Warrior holding up Vince McMahon for money or Austin vetoing a feud with Jeff Jarrett and later walking out as he didn't want to job to Brock Lesnar on Raw. Let's face it - Vince McMahon had a hard on for Shawn Michaels. There was no need to push Shawn Michaels and entirely possible to avoid a volatile situation. Neither Bret nor Shawn shifted the needle and no-one in the audience was clamouring for Shawn Michaels the world champion again. They wanted Austin. Wrestlemania 14 was sold on Austin flipping the bird to Tyson and not really the actual match. Shawn Michaels was just the necessary accessory to facilitate the coronation of Austin. Any other top tier star could have been in that position.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 29, 2017 11:54:14 GMT -5
It's still very selfish of Bret tho at the end. However, I believe it was in his contract that he was able to make these decisions as a failsafe so he wouldn't be jobbed and buried to everyone under the sun. Probably a lot less selfish than Ultimate Warrior holding up Vince McMahon for money or Austin vetoing a feud with Jeff Jarrett and later walking out as he didn't want to job to Brock Lesnar on Raw. Let's face it - Vince McMahon had a hard on for Shawn Michaels. There was no need to push Shawn Michaels and entirely possible to avoid a volatile situation. Neither Bret nor Shawn shifted the needle and no-one in the audience was clamouring for Shawn Michaels the world champion again. They wanted Austin. Wrestlemania 14 was sold on Austin flipping the bird to Tyson and not really the actual match. Shawn Michaels was just the necessary accessory to facilitate the coronation of Austin. Any other top tier star could have been in that position. Warrior and Austin were selfish in those regards and Austin has said so about the Brock situation. The Jarrett situation is his right tho and quite frankly there is no money in a Austin vs Jeff Jarrett feud. I do believe it was a big relief for Vince that Austin came along to push Shawn aside. Despite how you feel about Shawn or his lack of draw he was the needed "star power" to coronate Austin as HBK still was the top guy. No one got over HBK and it was a symbolic changing of the guards. You can't put Shamrock or anyone else in that place.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Aug 29, 2017 12:08:42 GMT -5
Probably a lot less selfish than Ultimate Warrior holding up Vince McMahon for money or Austin vetoing a feud with Jeff Jarrett and later walking out as he didn't want to job to Brock Lesnar on Raw. Let's face it - Vince McMahon had a hard on for Shawn Michaels. There was no need to push Shawn Michaels and entirely possible to avoid a volatile situation. Neither Bret nor Shawn shifted the needle and no-one in the audience was clamouring for Shawn Michaels the world champion again. They wanted Austin. Wrestlemania 14 was sold on Austin flipping the bird to Tyson and not really the actual match. Shawn Michaels was just the necessary accessory to facilitate the coronation of Austin. Any other top tier star could have been in that position. Warrior and Austin were selfish in those regards and Austin has said so about the Brock situation. The Jarrett situation is his right tho and quite frankly there is no money in a Austin vs Jeff Jarrett feud. I do believe it was a big relief for Vince that Austin came along to push Shawn aside. Despite how you feel about Shawn or his lack of draw he was the needed "star power" to coronate Austin as HBK still was the top guy. No one got over HBK and it was a symbolic changing of the guards. You can't put Shamrock or anyone else in that place. That's part of my original point, however. There was no money in Bret Hart vs Isaac Yankem, yet Bret went with it, no questions asked. I am sure Bret had enough clout to veto that. His dedication to Vince McMahon was absolute until he was asked to put someone over whom he had a personal issue with. I can see both sides - McMahon put his foot down so as to not set a precedence for a star leaving on their own terms and ruining his company. And there was the Eric Bischoff threat looming. But on the other side is one of your most loyal soldiers who isn't leaving of his own accord, but because because you can't pay him what you promised. A compromise could have worked out. Even if Shawn Michaels was necessary for Wrestlemania, put the title on Shamrock at Survivor Series and have Shawn win it at the December pay per view. That has no bearing on the Wrestlemania timeline. Austin still wins the Rumble and still faces Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 29, 2017 12:23:14 GMT -5
Warrior and Austin were selfish in those regards and Austin has said so about the Brock situation. The Jarrett situation is his right tho and quite frankly there is no money in a Austin vs Jeff Jarrett feud. I do believe it was a big relief for Vince that Austin came along to push Shawn aside. Despite how you feel about Shawn or his lack of draw he was the needed "star power" to coronate Austin as HBK still was the top guy. No one got over HBK and it was a symbolic changing of the guards. You can't put Shamrock or anyone else in that place. That's part of my original point, however. There was no money in Bret Hart vs Isaac Yankem, yet Bret went with it, no questions asked. I am sure Bret had enough clout to veto that. His dedication to Vince McMahon was absolute until he was asked to put someone over whom he had a personal issue with. I can see both sides - McMahon put his foot down so as to not set a precedence for a star leaving on their own terms and ruining his company. But on the other side is one of your most loyal soldiers who isn't leaving of his own accord, but because because you can't pay him what you promised. A compromise could have worked out. Even if Shawn Michaels was necessary for Wrestlemania, put the title on Shamrock at Survivor Series and have Shawn win it at the December pay per view. That has no bearing on the Wrestlemania timeline. Yea but it was also personal between Austin and Jarrett which lead to Austin saying f*** him. At the end of the day Bret wasn't leaving WWF to make pennies, he was going to WCW to make millions which Vince told him to do because the contract they had previously agreed upon wouldn't be able to work for him. Everyone under the sun knew Shawn was an asshole and hated him but Bret didn't want to do the favor him out the door to spite him when in the grand scheme of things it didn't matter because he was going to the other company. No one else was winning that title besides HBK because he had Vince ear and it was the "end" of the Bret vs Shawn saga. What it comes down to at the end of the day is everyone wanted it their way but the only way that mattered was Vince way because he owns the company. You couldn't trust Easy E to not tout the WWF champion was coming. Cooler heads should have prevailed through all of this but I feel Bret should have just dropped the title and then went about his business as regular.
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Mecca
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Post by Mecca on Aug 29, 2017 15:21:35 GMT -5
Let's be honest here, Bret Hart had way to much pride to just lay down for a guy that he basically felt like was ass f***ing him and laughing about it. You're basically asking a guy who's entire life was pro wrestling to have his last memory to a lot of people be him losing to someone who is everything he can't stand, there are a lot of people who wouldn't be able to handle that.
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Post by themule on Aug 30, 2017 5:18:29 GMT -5
I wonder what will live longer..RIC flair or the Montreal story...its impossible to tell at this point.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Aug 30, 2017 18:16:48 GMT -5
I do wonder how Vince went from "Dire financial straits" in November to bringing Tyson in by January.
Did he visit the track?!
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Aug 30, 2017 18:46:55 GMT -5
I still think that if Bret really respected the business as much as he likes to shout from the mountain top... he would have left the WWE on his back
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Aug 31, 2017 5:53:32 GMT -5
If Bret had even a smidgen less integrity than he exhibited in this whole mess, he would have been happy to go out on his back so long as Shawn found himself injured and unable to defend it afterwards - all plausibly deniable, given Bret's reputation. What were Hall and Nash gonna do if Bret had gone over to WCW after ending Michaels's championship run before it even began? What would Eric have said on-air then? Vince might have been ruined had Bret really gone into business for himself.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Aug 31, 2017 7:15:49 GMT -5
If Bret had even a smidgen less integrity than he exhibited in this whole mess, he would have been happy to go out on his back so long as Shawn found himself injured and unable to defend it afterwards - all plausibly deniable, given Bret's reputation. What were Hall and Nash gonna do if Bret had gone over to WCW after ending Michaels's championship run before it even began? What would Eric have said on-air then? Vince might have been ruined had Bret really gone into business for himself. That's assault and I am sure Montreal's finest would have been knocking on Bret's door.
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Post by Snake Pit on Aug 31, 2017 7:34:02 GMT -5
I do wonder how Vince went from "Dire financial straits" in November to bringing Tyson in by January. Did he visit the track?! I'm guessing Tyson was given something upfront but was also promised a huge chunk of the Mania 14 money.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 31, 2017 7:37:00 GMT -5
I do wonder how Vince went from "Dire financial straits" in November to bringing Tyson in by January. Did he visit the track?! I'm guessing Tyson was given something upfront but was also promised a huge chunk of the Mania 14 money. Probably, along with the Mr. McMahon character propelling Austin to even more popularity than he had begun to enjoy. That'd help revenue in a big way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 8:03:42 GMT -5
Another factor was that there was talk of the office asking Bret to drop the belt before Survivor Series, but Bret argued that the feud was too big and that he just had to come into Canada as the champion. If this is true, then Bret really DID screw Bret. Ouch.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Aug 31, 2017 8:31:07 GMT -5
That's assault and I am sure Montreal's finest would have been knocking on Bret's door. Not if the locker room had Bret's back (and a good chunk of it did, including the foreman.) Michaels at the time was a bonafide asshole and would not have gotten any support from the boys if it had happened. Even Vince was starting to tire of Michaels, but figured he'd be expendable by the time Wrestlemania came around and Austin's build as the new Face of the Company would be big enough to replace him. There's a reason I said "plausibly deniable." Had Vince fired anyone for hurting Michaels, they'd have been knocking on Eric's dor the next day and welcomed with open arms. Police involvement, if it was required, would have meant bad press for WWE with the feds still breathing down Vince's neck. Vince would have done just about anything to avoid it. In the end, Vince got what he needed from the Screwjob: enough rope with which Shawn could hang himself, a rising new superstar to reverse WWE's fortunes at the time, and himself as a new character, Mr. McMahon. Whatever Bret got for his part, it couldn't make up for the piles of losses he suffered in the years since.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 31, 2017 10:05:55 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest, and I say this with quite a low opinion of late 90s Shawn: Bret was being kind of a baby about the match to begin with. The f*** did it matter who beat him when he was going to be gone, anyway? Like, Bret is, usually, a very professional guy, but he was not being very professional about this, nor was he being professional to bitch to papers, etc, about how the title was taken from him. He he was making it all very personal for something that would soon not even involve him, anyway. It also gives evidence that Bret could be as petty as Shawn when he wanted to be. 'Oh I'll lose the belt to anyone at any time! ...Except Shawn. ...And not in Canada.'
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on Aug 31, 2017 10:48:14 GMT -5
This is an oversimplification, but the two general schools of thought on war trace back to the treatises of ancient Chinese general Sun Tzu and those of Carl Clausewitz, an 1800s general in the Prussian Russian Empire.
One of Clausewitz's great precepts is that you plan for your opponent's capabilities, not his intentions. His intentions can be masked or can change, his capabilities less so (or at least it can't be done suddenly, as a change in intention can).
If your opponent has a great mass of soldiers at your border, he CAN attack and overrun your forces if you don't have a like or greater number massed opposite him. Even if you seem to be getting along, he is capable of doing this if his intentions change, or if his intentions are different than what you think they are. So your planning would be based around what he can do, not what you think he will do.
Bret's intentions may have been to never take the belt to WCW or not bury WWE in a promo by proclaiming himself the REAL WWE champ and better than Shawn, if WWE did a quick transition switch to Shawn. But even if Vince trusted this, Bret's capabilities if he held the strap when his deal expired, however, were that he could do this. (Not to mention that Bischioff's intentions probably weren't the same as Bret's, and as Eric was in charge his intentions were what mattered. And to give Bischoff that capability could have been ruinous to WWE.)
Remember, this was WAR between the two promotions. VKM was using sound strategy, regardless of how anyone feels about the means used to get the belt off Shawn.
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Post by SirLucas on Sept 1, 2017 0:08:40 GMT -5
In hindsight they could have had a triple threat or fatal four way with Shamrock amd whoever else. Shawn scores the pin fall on someone besides Bret, and Bret gets to drop the belt without having to do the job.
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