Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 22:54:27 GMT -5
I really loved the match, but that’s just me.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 22, 2017 22:56:50 GMT -5
OK, then that’s just them exaggerating what her NXT run was actually like to unsustainable levels. I’m sorry, but the women’s division is too small for them to actually follow up on those claims for any long period of time, so that’s their mistake. It’s not so much an issue with the men because they have 20-30 more people the monster can run through before getting to the top stars. For Asuka, as a babyface... it’s two more heels before she gets to the champion, Jax and Fox. TWO. It's them telling a story which they didn't stick to which is a problem. Her NXT run could have been however it was but if the story doesn't match up it's a mistake on their part regardless of the womens' division. Nobody here is saying that they don't need to build the women up considering the division is small, we all agree with that. What we're saying is based on the story they told with Asuka, they went ahead and did something completely different in the match. Secondly it's against Emma who, due to her credibility, just hasn't been built up to be a great opponent. It's no different than the complaints about other wrestlers not being credible and yet they're doing damage to people outta nowhere. An example is Mahal/Balor months ago where Mahal was on the offensive for a great amount of the match. It's the same situation in this case. Just because other women need to be built up isn't an excuse that the previews and story they were telling for Asuka were wrong and that didn't link up to the match. That's like building up a match about Ambrose having a bad shoulder but in the match there's no indication of it. Let alone that's no excuse to say "well women need to be built up so it's ok that Emma did this." It's just not good build-up. I don’t disagree that the build-up was no good for the story they told. I just don’t think the narrative dissonance was so damaging that it’s wrecked her run completely first match out of the gate.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
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Post by Rican on Oct 22, 2017 22:56:58 GMT -5
It was a good match but should have been a squash.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 22:58:07 GMT -5
It is like someone said the entire problem is the narrative they set.
They built this aura around her for the last 6 weeks that she is gonna be the beast of the womens division that needs to be feared and then here she is getting worked over for far longer by a woman who is for all intents on the very bottom rung of the womens division.
IMO it does not kill her by any means but this is indicitive of Nakamura and to a lesser extent Roode and it has shown that this hurts in the long run because it is juwt what WWE does now and she is quickly just gonna be another cog in the machine sadly.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Oct 22, 2017 23:05:19 GMT -5
I'm more annoyed at the "she loves to have fun!" thing than the actual back-and-forth match. There's not so much to be had from Asuka blowing through the entire female division on both shows and holding the belt until she has to forfeit due to injury, rinse and repeat. That kind of thing has a very short shelf life, especially when on TV every week. So, yeah. Let her have back and forth matches (that she wins convincingly) to showcase what she can do, and maybe let her opponents get a bit of a rub by showing what THEY can do. That's fine.
But what you don't want to have is commentary playing that off like "She's out here to have fun! She's so entertaining!" They should be playing it off like "Is Asuka just toying with her opponent, here? Is she daring her opponent to show her what she's got? Is this some kind of test from Asuka, seeing what the upward limits of her opponent's offense is?" Say things like "Asuka took all that (whoever) had and still came out on top." Have the story be "Asuka was the best in Japan, and her time in NXT just made her better. Now, she's here in WWE looking for somebody who can really challenge her. She left her home. Her family. Her friends. Her successful businesses. All in the name of finding the perfect challenger. "This isn't fun for her. She's got plenty of hobbies for that. Wrestling, to her, is as serious as a heart attack."
Think of her like the anti-Lesnar. She wins all the time, but does so in a way the shows off what both she and whoever she's wrestling can do. That's how you make both parties look good without 50/50 booking. But, much like Lesnar, I definitely wouldn't have her wrestle every week. Not on TV, anyway. Because as Roman and Cena have shown, seeing people win, convincingly, week after week, sours the audience on them.
If WWE is determined to keep that winning streak intact, don't put the title on her until there's a plan to get it off of her. Because "can't lose" doesn't jive well with "world champion" unless there's an endgame. You saw it with Goldberg where the streak ended due to a cattle prod. As Taker said "the end of the streak must be pure". None of this weird run-in/interference/MitB cash-in nonsense to end the streak. When it breaks, it's got to mean something. And it WON'T mean anything if the person who holds the streak is portrayed as somebody who "just wants to come out here and have fun, to entertain you!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 23:05:54 GMT -5
It's them telling a story which they didn't stick to which is a problem. Her NXT run could have been however it was but if the story doesn't match up it's a mistake on their part regardless of the womens' division. Nobody here is saying that they don't need to build the women up considering the division is small, we all agree with that. What we're saying is based on the story they told with Asuka, they went ahead and did something completely different in the match. Secondly it's against Emma who, due to her credibility, just hasn't been built up to be a great opponent. It's no different than the complaints about other wrestlers not being credible and yet they're doing damage to people outta nowhere. An example is Mahal/Balor months ago where Mahal was on the offensive for a great amount of the match. It's the same situation in this case. Just because other women need to be built up isn't an excuse that the previews and story they were telling for Asuka were wrong and that didn't link up to the match. That's like building up a match about Ambrose having a bad shoulder but in the match there's no indication of it. Let alone that's no excuse to say "well women need to be built up so it's ok that Emma did this." It's just not good build-up. I don’t disagree that the build-up was no good for the story they told. I just don’t think the narrative dissonance was so damaging that it’s wrecked her run completely first match out of the gate. It definitely hasn't completely wrecked her run but it did do damage. It's like Ziggler when he went against Nakamura and Roode during their first matches. We'll see what happens with her.
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Post by Bungle on Oct 23, 2017 1:56:49 GMT -5
Maybe she actually loves having fun.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
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Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Oct 23, 2017 2:05:10 GMT -5
The booking was fine, but F*** that commentary. I am so sick of the "having fun" bullshit. No. These people are here to win matches and kick ass.
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Post by Doctor No on Oct 23, 2017 2:41:06 GMT -5
Do we think he has actually talked to her? LOL
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Oct 23, 2017 3:43:14 GMT -5
It is like someone said the entire problem is the narrative they set. They built this aura around her for the last 6 weeks that she is gonna be the beast of the womens division that needs to be feared and then here she is getting worked over for far longer by a woman who is for all intents on the very bottom rung of the womens division. IMO it does not kill her by any means but this is indicitive of Nakamura and to a lesser extent Roode and it has shown that this hurts in the long run because it is juwt what WWE does now and she is quickly just gonna be another cog in the machine sadly. I know that 7th on the depth chart isn't much better then 9th but I would say Emma is above both Dana and Alicia Fox in the pecking order as at least she's on TV pretty consistently while also getting a decent amount of promo time. Also she does occasionally pick up a win here and there, although in general her win loss record is pretty poor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 5:11:45 GMT -5
Reason was they had a match on Raw for the right to face Asuka. If Emma had been murked it would have made those who lost to her (Sasha, Bayley ect) look poor, plus it's enough of a rub for Asuka to have people fighting for the right to fight her.
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auph10imitated
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Post by auph10imitated on Oct 23, 2017 6:17:31 GMT -5
Having her squash Emma would have booked them back into a corner with her again, just like they have done with Brock. So the selling of her offence was fine. Michael Cole's horrendous commentary was the issue, but do we expect anything else from him? He is beyond awful and always has been
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Oct 23, 2017 6:24:54 GMT -5
Personally what I would have done was book Alexa vs. Asuka for the title straight out of the gate on the PPV as Asuka's debut, and in the weeks leading up to the match have everybody talk about Asuka winning the title as a foregone conclusion. Then have Alexa pull out a "slipped on a banana peel" win. Then have Asuka have to plow through the Womans roster over the next few months in order to get her rematch at WrestleMania.
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Post by MrElijah on Oct 23, 2017 7:21:13 GMT -5
The booking was fine, but F*** that commentary. I am so sick of the "having fun" bullshit. No. These people are here to win matches and kick ass. This ain't the first time they did this shit. Graves and Saxton put over New Day breaking Demolition's record then Cole chimes in: "Don't forget they like to have fun and entertain, the most important thing." Huh? It's not the wrestling, WWE's narrative and story telling sucks, especially coming from Cole.
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Oct 23, 2017 7:35:38 GMT -5
Do we think he has actually talked to her? LOL On one of the Wrestlemania specials they showed that Cole actually DID have a conversation with Sasha Banks that he later mentioned in her match. My take away from that was; "How can you be telling the truth and sound so much like you're lying?!?"
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Post by cabbageboy on Oct 23, 2017 7:46:25 GMT -5
Sorry but that match was so ill advised. After weeks on end of hearing how awesome Asuka is that needed to be a total demolition last night. WWE just has no idea how to debut someone. You have to put someone out there to showcase their moves and get over, which that match did not do. Emma has so not been getting a push so when she got this spot I figured it was to just job her hard and feature Asuka. Instead it's a 10 minute match where Emma controls about 60% of it. Last night should have been a 3 minute beating, and then if they want a more competitive match with Emma they could do that in a few weeks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 7:53:28 GMT -5
The match was fine. The commentary (Cole specifically) was dogshit.
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Post by Tenshigure on Oct 23, 2017 8:08:26 GMT -5
Asuka HAS NEVER completely squashed people outside of complete jobbers and has never no-sold people. In the eyes of every casual audience member and non-NXT watcher, the exact opposite was what was advertised leading up to this match. Title of the video: "Is Emma read for Asuka?" APPARENTLY SHE WAS. That's the biggest problem this whole narrative has, and is something that has severely damaged Nakamura leading up to this point, which both have parallels in how they came up to the main roster. In their respective NXT debuts, both made a strong statement as far as what they do and how they perform. Neither really decimated, but they decisively won their matches in a way that enhanced their character. Rather than continue with what works for both of them (not to mention run videos that showcases their strength in matches), instead they get booked in a back-and-forth match that deflated a lot of the hype and expectations the WWE has put on both. Oh, and did I mention that "they're having fun in there"? No seriously, both of them and their mind games are getting hand-waived off as "having fun" instead of "getting into their opponents heads". No, we've got to have the grating commentary poke holes into everything they have so that muting the show would be more beneficial to their buildup than these robots they have on the table. Also, EVERYONE has seen Ziggler and Emma wrestle. BOTH deserve to be booked a lot better and look better, sure...but the MAIN ROSTER DEBUT of hyped up fresh blood is absolutely the worst time to do it. Nobody is going to complain about making Emma look better than she has in the past; but we sure as hell will when it serves better to have the new female talent who most non-hardcore only know her as the dominant NXT Champion who had a longer undefeated streak than Goldberg debuts. If they wanted this to be a competitive match, they should've just put her out there with a better booked opponent such as Sasha Banks or Mickie James. I don't think they should've strapped her in her debut match, but at least these two are known to win matches every now and again, while Emma is only starting to pull off wins after being the division's loudmouthed jobber all year up until the last two weeks. *** Does it spell the end of Asuka on Raw? Absolutely not, not as long as Bayley is still around. But the hype and momentum she had coming into the debut (again, a PPV debut instead of just regular matches is something you usually reserve for something special), followed by the results we got...it did a lot of damage that is going to take weeks to repair if they don't get it back on track fairly quickly. What we're LIKELY to see is more back-and-forth matches with Emma, which isn't what we need. Feed Alicia Fox or something to her so she can have a decisive win on TV.
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Post by freeze Austin on Oct 23, 2017 10:52:38 GMT -5
The problem is this was Asuka's debut before the mainstream audience that mostly doesn't watch NXT, and Emma has been well established as the lowest tier of women that actually get TV time.
If the objective was to have an okay opener and make Asuka just another wrestler, then it did it's job. If the objective was to get Asuka over as a star, have her leave a huge impression, and build her as the next Raw women's champion, then it failed. If you want to do the first, that's fine, but don't then say after the fact "Why can't we build new stars? Can't be our booking, it must be the fault of the talent for not grabbing the brass ring, damn millennials!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 10:54:47 GMT -5
She's having fun, Maggle!
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