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Post by Tenshigure on Oct 24, 2017 11:43:50 GMT -5
Here's a test for those STILL not getting it:
1) Listen to the crowd reaction when Asuka comes out for the first time at TLC, compared to when she makes the pin. 2) Compare the reaction from her entrance at TLC to when she makes her entrance at Raw. 3) Finally, listen to the difference between Asuka coming out at TLC to when she makes the pin on Raw.
If you want to tell me the crowd response from #3 is exponentially quieter, I will call you a liar straight to your face.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 24, 2017 14:09:43 GMT -5
Yes Asuka will lose, she has to, and it has to be to someone, but so does everyone else. Since there's an odd Brock comparison for some reason, let's use his debut. He shows up, and murders everyone, repeatedly, like walking into matches where four guys are working and kills all of them, with ease. He had to lose at some point, someone had to be on his level, but they still went with "murder all the things" as his intro. Remember the Gowan "feud"? OK, Let's say instead of "murder the guy with one leg", Gowan was plucky, kept some heat, and got to run with Brock for a bit before he got beat. The match is just a not quite squash cause Gowan gets shots in but Brock still wins. Does it serve as a moment where people look back and go "The guy is a monster"? No, it would serve as "Well, see, Brock won against the guy, and the guy only has one leg, but he got some shots in, so Brock isn't really all that great, is he?" Brock Lesnar is a man, though. It sounds worse than it seems, but that is basically the point. Brock Lesnar is a man, and people will buy other men as being in his league and able to fight him. By contrast, Asuka is a woman- and right now, no one buys any woman on earth- literally ANY woman on earth, because people would be devastated if Ronda Rousey beats Asuka and say "Asuka can't lose to Rousey, she's BENEATH HER!"- as beneath Asuka to lose to, and that will not change. Heck, people barely buy the MEN as being in Asuka's league...and even if they are, WWE is NOT DOING INTERGENDER. EVER. So that means that Asuka will lose, she will lose to a woman, and it has to be to someone- but the problem is that literally every woman on earth is seen as beneath Asuka to lose to . Therefore the only way to fix this is to take Asuka down a peg so she CAN lose to people, and deflate her aura enough so she can lose, while also building up the women in defeat to the point it makes them look like they're at least in Asuka's league. And to the answers? Yes, maybe Emma looked like a jobber before this. Yes maybe they built Asuka as the female Goldberg. DIDN'T MATTER, IT WAS WORTH IT.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 14:18:04 GMT -5
And to the answers? Yes, maybe Emma looked like a jobber before this. Yes maybe they built Asuka as the female Goldberg. DIDN'T MATTER, IT WAS WORTH IT. And just like that you've proved my point. You're saying those concerns don't matter because you think this is more important. Not only is that false (because you've got 2 negative things happening and 1 positive thing happening, 2 is larger than 1) but you're acting as though people's concerns don't matter in your eyes. That's disregarding everyone else's opinions in favor of your own. It's like I said on page 3, people have legit complaints that haven't been debunked you (you actually agreed with the complaints now). There's really no debate when you agree with people's complaints. The only issue is you thinking they're not as important as what you think is important.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,286
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Oct 24, 2017 14:22:57 GMT -5
Yes Asuka will lose, she has to, and it has to be to someone, but so does everyone else. Since there's an odd Brock comparison for some reason, let's use his debut. He shows up, and murders everyone, repeatedly, like walking into matches where four guys are working and kills all of them, with ease. He had to lose at some point, someone had to be on his level, but they still went with "murder all the things" as his intro. Remember the Gowan "feud"? OK, Let's say instead of "murder the guy with one leg", Gowan was plucky, kept some heat, and got to run with Brock for a bit before he got beat. The match is just a not quite squash cause Gowan gets shots in but Brock still wins. Does it serve as a moment where people look back and go "The guy is a monster"? No, it would serve as "Well, see, Brock won against the guy, and the guy only has one leg, but he got some shots in, so Brock isn't really all that great, is he?" Brock Lesnar is a man, though. It sounds worse than it seems, but that is basically the point. Brock Lesnar is a man, and people will buy other men as being in his league and able to fight him. By contrast, Asuka is a woman- and right now, no one buys any woman on earth- literally ANY woman on earth, because people would be devastated if Ronda Rousey beats Asuka and say "Asuka can't lose to Rousey, she's BENEATH HER!"- as beneath Asuka to lose to, and that will not change. Heck, people barely buy the MEN as being in Asuka's league...and even if they are, WWE is NOT DOING INTERGENDER. EVER. So that means that Asuka will lose, she will lose to a woman, and it has to be to someone- but the problem is that literally every woman on earth is seen as beneath Asuka to lose to . Therefore the only way to fix this is to take Asuka down a peg so she CAN lose to people, and deflate her aura enough so she can lose, while also building up the women in defeat to the point it makes them look like they're at least in Asuka's league. And to the answers? Yes, maybe Emma looked like a jobber before this. Yes maybe they built Asuka as the female Goldberg. DIDN'T MATTER, IT WAS WORTH IT. Question. Two really 1) Do you like Asuka? 2) Does it matter more that the division is a draw, or that the division has a draw?
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Big Poppa Pumpkin
Dennis Stamp
I'll be in the back polishing............ my belt.
Posts: 4,987
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Post by Big Poppa Pumpkin on Oct 24, 2017 16:13:24 GMT -5
I'm just glad to hear that Asuka does indeed like to have fun, Michael Cole always knows how to deepen the viewer's understanding of wrestling's complex and nuanced characters.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 24, 2017 20:19:56 GMT -5
And to the answers? Yes, maybe Emma looked like a jobber before this. Yes maybe they built Asuka as the female Goldberg. DIDN'T MATTER, IT WAS WORTH IT. And just like that you've proved my point. You're saying those concerns don't matter because you think this is more important. Not only is that false (because you've got 2 negative things happening and 1 positive thing happening, 2 is larger than 1) but you're acting as though people's concerns don't matter in your eyes. That's disregarding everyone else's opinions in favor of your own. It's like I said on page 3, people have legit complaints that haven't been debunked you (you actually agreed with the complaints now). There's really no debate when you agree with people's complaints. The only issue is you thinking they're not as important as what you think is important. Question. Two really 1) Do you like Asuka? 2) Does it matter more that the division is a draw, or that the division has a draw? My answers: 1) Actually I DO like Asuka. I think she buried the NXT women's division and killed it dead before walking off, but I like Asuka in the ring. I just don't want her to steamroll the division like she did in NXT. 2) It matters more that the division has a draw that can build up the rest of the division to be a draw. Which is what happened with Asuka/Emma. But I keep getting questions given to me, so I'll match this with 2 questions to the people against this: 1) Who, on the active WWE main roster (I'll allow people currently in rotation on NXT who could BELIEVABLY be promoted in the next six months), would you accept Asuka losing to (and when I say losing to, I mean clean as a sheet, dead center of the ring, to their finisher, no interference, no cheating, Asuka didn't have a hangnail, nothing except Asuka LOST, and she lost because on this night, this other woman WAS BETTER THAN HER?) 2) If Asuka DID lose to someone who is not on that list, would you react that Asuka couldn't lose to them because it's beneath Asuka to lose to them?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 20:27:59 GMT -5
And just like that you've proved my point. You're saying those concerns don't matter because you think this is more important. Not only is that false (because you've got 2 negative things happening and 1 positive thing happening, 2 is larger than 1) but you're acting as though people's concerns don't matter in your eyes. That's disregarding everyone else's opinions in favor of your own. It's like I said on page 3, people have legit complaints that haven't been debunked you (you actually agreed with the complaints now). There's really no debate when you agree with people's complaints. The only issue is you thinking they're not as important as what you think is important. I keep getting questions given to me, so I'll match this with 2 questions to the people against this: 1) Who, on the active WWE main roster (I'll allow people currently in rotation on NXT who could BELIEVABLY be promoted in the next six months), would you accept Asuka losing to (and when I say losing to, I mean clean as a sheet, dead center of the ring, to their finisher, no interference, no cheating, Asuka didn't have a hangnail, nothing except Asuka LOST, and she lost because on this night, this other woman WAS BETTER THAN HER?) 2) If Asuka DID lose to someone who is not on that list, would you react that Asuka couldn't lose to them because it's beneath Asuka to lose to them? You're missing the point. 1.) Asuka can lose to anybody as long as the story is built up in a way that it makes sense. She can lose to Emma, she can lose to Becky, she can lose to a little girl in the audience, it doesn't matter as long as the story is right. If the story isn't right then it doesn't matter who she loses against because she has a character and there's a storyline intact which revolves around her character. Against Emma these past 2 nights the storyline and narration towards her debut, and Emma as a character, were completely wrong given what they've portrayed to us about both wrestlers. The problem I and others have is that Emma wasn't built up and the story was Asuka was, literally main roster talent used these words about Asuka these past few weeks, dominating. That is bad writing. You cannot dismiss this. You literally agreed with us just now. 2.) Look above because that doesn't matter. She can lose to anyone as long as the narration made sense even a wrestler who debuted that very night. We're talking about story here and the narration. That's been our concerns. If you don't get that after all this time I don't know what to tell you because you're not understanding. It's not about if Asuka won, it's not about the fact that Emma looked better, it's about the fact that Emma's story and Asuka's story weren't in play and that completely screws the narration in favor of something else entirely. That's like Ambrose all of a sudden using luchador moves rather than his current style with nothing in program hinting or explaining why. That isn't good writing.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 24, 2017 20:40:02 GMT -5
You're missing the point. 1.) Asuka can lose to anybody as long as the story is built up in a way that it makes sense. She can lose to Emma, she can lose to Becky, she can lose to a little girl in the audience, it doesn't matter as long as the story is right. If the story isn't right then it doesn't matter who she loses against because she has a character and there's a storyline intact which revolves around her character. Against Emma these past 2 nights the storyline and narration towards her debut, and Emma as a character, were completely wrong given what they've portrayed to us about both wrestlers. The problem I and others have is that Emma wasn't built up and the story was Asuka was, literally main roster talent used these words about Asuka these past few weeks, dominating. That is bad writing. You cannot dismiss this. You literally agreed with us just now. 2.) Look above because that doesn't matter. She can lose to anyone as long as the narration made sense even a wrestler who debuted that very night. We're talking about story here and the narration. That's been our concerns. If you don't get that after all this time I don't know what to tell you because you're not understanding. It's not about if Asuka won, it's not about the fact that Emma looked better, it's about the fact that Emma's story and Asuka's story weren't in play and that completely screws the narration in favor of something else entirely. That's like Ambrose all of a sudden using luchador moves rather than his current style with nothing in program hinting or explaining why. That isn't good writing. Then YOU'RE missing the point too. You said that, but with the same thing you're also saying, in so many words, "But the story isn't right for Asuka to lose to literally anyone on earth", which is what I've been saying. And that is my point- I agree. It's bad writing to make Asuka seem like a dominator and make Emma seem like she's dominant against her. Doesn't matter, because it's WORSE WRITING to have a character who is so broken that SHE CANNOT POSSIBLY LOSE TO ANYONE ON EARTH running around the show, and it's broken her further from this incredibly arrogant "She can't lose to [X], it's BENEATH HER!" claim that Asuka's fans have decided on through the writing of this show. If you can't get that then I don't know what to tell you because you just don't WANT to get it- and it's the reaction you have that's going to kill Asuka on the main roster when she loses for the first time. It won't be them saying she likes to have fun, it won't be her putting on good matches, it'll be this reaction that she can't lose to anyone because they're beneath her that will guarantee that WHEN- not if, WHEN- she loses for the first time, her aura will be dead forever. If making her look a little worse right now- EVEN IF it's bad writing immediately- makes it so that Asuka can survive her first loss, then it's WORTH IT, and anyone who disagrees just WANTS Asuka to fail on the main roster.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 24, 2017 20:43:34 GMT -5
Emma and Asuka had a good match, but I'm gonna have to agree with those saying the match should have been a squash. I don't think the booking was that detrimental to Asuka, but a dominant win would have left an even bigger, better impression. Emma shouldn't have gotten the heat for that long, and she really shouldn't have hit Asuka with any suplexes. It wasn't her time.
If WWE wants to build Asuka up as a juggernaut, a decisive win in her debut would have done wonders for her. Maybe Emma is too good to be a full-time jobber, but I think there's a benefit in feeding a lower midcarder like her to someone they're pegging as a new star. Wins, losses and looking strong means a lot to John Q. Public. I think now is the time for them to just go full Goldberg with her, Super-Asuka.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 24, 2017 20:48:09 GMT -5
Emma and Asuka had a good match, but I'm gonna have to agree with those saying the match should have been a squash. I don't think the booking was that detrimental to Asuka, but a dominant win would have left an even bigger, better impression. Emma shouldn't have gotten the heat for that long, and she really shouldn't have hit Asuka with any suplexes. It wasn't her time. If WWE wants to build Asuka up as a juggernaut, a decisive win in her debut would have done wonders for her. Maybe Emma is too good to be a full-time jobber, but I think there's a benefit in feeding a lower midcarder like her to someone they're pegging as a new star. Wins, losses and looking strong means a lot to John Q. Public. I think now is the time for them to just go full Goldberg with her, Super-Asuka. If they do that, then they need to use proper enhancement talents like they did for her in NXT and they did for Strowman when he started his big singles push, largely for the sake of preserving opponent variety, but also so the likes of your Emmas and Dana Brookes of the roster are at least a level enough higher where they’re good enough to at least get offense on her.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 24, 2017 20:48:56 GMT -5
And just like that you've proved my point. You're saying those concerns don't matter because you think this is more important. Not only is that false (because you've got 2 negative things happening and 1 positive thing happening, 2 is larger than 1) but you're acting as though people's concerns don't matter in your eyes. That's disregarding everyone else's opinions in favor of your own. It's like I said on page 3, people have legit complaints that haven't been debunked you (you actually agreed with the complaints now). There's really no debate when you agree with people's complaints. The only issue is you thinking they're not as important as what you think is important. Question. Two really 1) Do you like Asuka? 2) Does it matter more that the division is a draw, or that the division has a draw? My answers: 1) Actually I DO like Asuka. I think she buried the NXT women's division and killed it dead before walking off, but I like Asuka in the ring. I just don't want her to steamroll the division like she did in NXT. 2) It matters more that the division has a draw that can build up the rest of the division to be a draw. Which is what happened with Asuka/Emma. But I keep getting questions given to me, so I'll match this with 2 questions to the people against this: 1) Who, on the active WWE main roster (I'll allow people currently in rotation on NXT who could BELIEVABLY be promoted in the next six months), would you accept Asuka losing to (and when I say losing to, I mean clean as a sheet, dead center of the ring, to their finisher, no interference, no cheating, Asuka didn't have a hangnail, nothing except Asuka LOST, and she lost because on this night, this other woman WAS BETTER THAN HER?) 2) If Asuka DID lose to someone who is not on that list, would you react that Asuka couldn't lose to them because it's beneath Asuka to lose to them? Regarding point 1, and teh division having someone who can build up other stars, you are familiar with Vince McMahon and how he has had the men's division booked for the last decade plus? It is ALL about "one dominant tippy top guy who is just better than everyone else, and who everyone is supposed to look weak against, unless they're a star from another profitable time period or related to the family". That has been his go to for a very long time, so having Asuka come in and be the just so much better than everyone else, kill them all dead, and dance in the bodies, that's what Brock did, that was the goal with Cena, that was what Triple H did, and so on.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 24, 2017 20:51:48 GMT -5
Emma and Asuka had a good match, but I'm gonna have to agree with those saying the match should have been a squash. I don't think the booking was that detrimental to Asuka, but a dominant win would have left an even bigger, better impression. Emma shouldn't have gotten the heat for that long, and she really shouldn't have hit Asuka with any suplexes. It wasn't her time. If WWE wants to build Asuka up as a juggernaut, a decisive win in her debut would have done wonders for her. Maybe Emma is too good to be a full-time jobber, but I think there's a benefit in feeding a lower midcarder like her to someone they're pegging as a new star. Wins, losses and looking strong means a lot to John Q. Public. I think now is the time for them to just go full Goldberg with her, Super-Asuka. If they do that, then they need to use proper enhancement talents like they did for her in NXT and they did for Strowman when he started his big singles push, largely for the sake of preserving opponent variety, but also so the likes of your Emmas and Dana Brookes of the roster are at least a level enough higher where they’re good enough to at least get offense on her. For Asuka's debut? I'm not sure if I'd let Emma go past two minutes. Emma would throw right hands, then she'd get hip attacked, suplexed, powerbombed, kicked, Asuka Locked, goodbye. Emma can be rebuilt, but that's the match where I'd light the rocket on Asuka's back.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 24, 2017 20:58:28 GMT -5
Regarding point 1, and teh division having someone who can build up other stars, you are familiar with Vince McMahon and how he has had the men's division booked for the last decade plus? It is ALL about "one dominant tippy top guy who is just better than everyone else, and who everyone is supposed to look weak against, unless they're a star from another profitable time period or related to the family". That has been his go to for a very long time, so having Asuka come in and be the just so much better than everyone else, kill them all dead, and dance in the bodies, that's what Brock did, that was the goal with Cena, that was what Triple H did, and so on. Being able to destroy everyone works better when you're the champion of 50 people than the champion of six. It wouldn't be able to work for Asuka there because the division's too small. Even if she did kill everyone all dead and dance in the bodies...big whoop. She's better than six people. That's not enough to make her work. And even then, you didn't answer the question- who's she supposed to eventually lose to? Brock eventually lost. Cena eventually lost. Triple H eventually lost. Asuka, on the other hand, not only has "she shouldn't lose", but "it's BENEATH HER to lose to anyone", which makes it worse. Even if she eventually loses to someone who is a star for beating her, it's worthless if that'll just make her look like it's beneath her to lose to someone- because it goes past "strong loss to a worthy opponent", and past "It was a fluke that she beat her", and right to "It's a comedy segment. See, it's FUNNY because Asuka LOST to this woman, and that's funny because she'd never lose to her in a million years!"
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 20:59:40 GMT -5
You're missing the point. 1.) Asuka can lose to anybody as long as the story is built up in a way that it makes sense. She can lose to Emma, she can lose to Becky, she can lose to a little girl in the audience, it doesn't matter as long as the story is right. If the story isn't right then it doesn't matter who she loses against because she has a character and there's a storyline intact which revolves around her character. Against Emma these past 2 nights the storyline and narration towards her debut, and Emma as a character, were completely wrong given what they've portrayed to us about both wrestlers. The problem I and others have is that Emma wasn't built up and the story was Asuka was, literally main roster talent used these words about Asuka these past few weeks, dominating. That is bad writing. You cannot dismiss this. You literally agreed with us just now. 2.) Look above because that doesn't matter. She can lose to anyone as long as the narration made sense even a wrestler who debuted that very night. We're talking about story here and the narration. That's been our concerns. If you don't get that after all this time I don't know what to tell you because you're not understanding. It's not about if Asuka won, it's not about the fact that Emma looked better, it's about the fact that Emma's story and Asuka's story weren't in play and that completely screws the narration in favor of something else entirely. That's like Ambrose all of a sudden using luchador moves rather than his current style with nothing in program hinting or explaining why. That isn't good writing. Then YOU'RE missing the point too. You said that, but with the same thing you're also saying, in so many words, "But the story isn't right for Asuka to lose to literally anyone on earth", which is what I've been saying. And that is my point- I agree. It's bad writing to make Asuka seem like a dominator and make Emma seem like she's dominant against her. Doesn't matter, because it's WORSE WRITING to have a character who is so broken that SHE CANNOT POSSIBLY LOSE TO ANYONE ON EARTH running around the show, and it's broken her further from this incredibly arrogant "She can't lose to [X], it's BENEATH HER!" claim that Asuka's fans have decided on through the writing of this show. If you can't get that then I don't know what to tell you because you just don't WANT to get it- and it's the reaction you have that's going to kill Asuka on the main roster when she loses for the first time. It won't be them saying she likes to have fun, it won't be her putting on good matches, it'll be this reaction that she can't lose to anyone because they're beneath her that will guarantee that WHEN- not if, WHEN- she loses for the first time, her aura will be dead forever.
If making her look a little worse right now- EVEN IF it's bad writing immediately- makes it so that Asuka can survive her first loss, then it's WORTH IT, and anyone who disagrees just WANTS Asuka to fail on the main roster.You still don't get it. That isn't the point and I don't know how many times we have to explain it to you. This is my last post to you about it because not only are you in the minority regarding this, many of us have tried to explain it to you and you don't get it. This is about the story that's being told. The story is most important. The story relates to wins and loses, it relates to friendships, it relates to who's on screen, it relates to everything. You focusing on "oh but she won the match-" means you don't get it. To break it down for you I'll use these examples. - Say Reigns has an undefeated streak for an entire year, say he's mowing through guys easily. Strowman beaten in 1 minute, Lesnar beaten in 1 minute. Everyone. One day he has a random Raw match where he's having a competitive match with Ellsworth, someone who's just been drafted and his last year's been him easily beating by opponents. We aren't talking about if Reigns loses. We're talking about the fact he's having a competitive match with someone who's been easily beaten over the past year and out of nowhere he's able to compete with a guy who's mowing through guys. This is bad writing. What should happen is Ellsworth builds up a resume for a year before he faces Reigns and then he's able to compete with him. That is good writing. It's the same thing you all were complaining about when it comes to Jinder being world champion. It's the same thing you all were complaining about when Ziggler was dominating Nakamura for most of his first match roster match. - Say Charlotte is Women's Champion and she's been beating everyone in a competitive match. Her last match was against Becky and she won in 2 minutes. Now she has a rematch against Becky and in 10 seconds Becky easily beats her without breaking a sweat. Say you get a promo from Becky prior to it saying "I've been crying for a week and now I'm fighting her again, I don't know how I can win" and she does it easily. This is bad writing. There's no progression nor is there any training Becky went through that makes sense. In real stories you see this. If you start dancing you aren't all of a sudden going to be the world's greatest dancer. You build up a resume for years. You can't say "well it'll happen because-" because stories and real life do not, I can't stress enough, work this way. - Say Asuka's about to move up to the main roster and in the preview videos you have main roster women and announcers saying she's been dominating women, say they hype her up by mentioning Goldberg. Now say she has a match against someone who's seen as the joke of the division, Emma, and Emma's dominating most of both matches to the point where an announcer flatout says "Emma is dominating Asuka", out of nowhere, knowing their prior histories and how the story is told. That is bad writing. Lastly, you keep putting what you think "worth it in the end" even though you straight up agreed it's bad writing. It's like I said, you're talking about the future but what we're talking about is the present. People are watching wrestling in the present, they're not worried about how great of a wrestler Bryan's kid will be in the future. They're worried about who's a world champion now, they're not worried about who in NXT will be the next The Guy. The biggest problem with what you're saying is you're willing to use bad writing to, in your mind, improve a situation while us we're trying to say "bad writing is bad writing and that's not an excuse to improve something" because honestly it's not. You can improve a situation with good writing, you can improve a situation with great stories. You don't need to make excuses for bad writing simply because you think it's worth it. You shouldn't make excuses for any kind of bad content. "Oh this is bad but it's ok it's bad now but I'm sure it'll get better" when really it needs to be "ok this is bad and it needs to stop, it needs to get better through great things." We don't need bad content now and great content later. We need great content now and great content later. Bad content is bad content and you need to stop making excuses for it. That's all I'm saying about that. If you still want to think that after most of these posts in here God bless you. I'm done explaining things.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,286
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Oct 24, 2017 21:08:08 GMT -5
People hyped that Asuka would bring excitement to the division.
Her struggling with Emma multiple times did not do that.
That alone shows it was wrong to do. Struggle with Sasha, struggle with Nia..
But Emma right now is almost at Dana level. There is nothing impressive about beating her. If it was a really great match? Maybe people would care. Emma hasn't had those... Well, ever IMO.
It's really simple when you don't overthink it. They failed a layup by sinking the hype.
For Emma.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 24, 2017 21:08:13 GMT -5
You still didn't disagree with my point, though.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 24, 2017 21:20:51 GMT -5
OK, so the point, I'm seeing is that "if we build her, she'll be dead after her first loss", in essence the Goldberg paradox. However, if the solution in match 1 is "make someone be competitive", then you have to have her lose right away, you have no choice. She has to lose, and then, in that division, just be somewhere in the middle. Thing is, that is saying "everything done in NXT to build a character, everything done by that creative staff must be deleted so that we can have her be part of the herd and not take the focus form the story we are telling about these other people".
Again, I get it, but if the whole point of "what a draw is" in this era, or whatever the hell we're calling it, is one person who is just better than everyone, who everyone sucks up to and praises and then loses to handily adn who never ever looks bad or weak, even when the crowd hates it, then Asuka coming in and murdering the divsion is precisely how they make "stars". And if she loses? Just do what they do for every top person, ignore the loss, act like it doesn't matter, repeat.
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Post by benstudd on Oct 24, 2017 22:49:17 GMT -5
Hell, WWE was selling her as the female Goldberg from those promo videos. They even bragged she had a bigger streak than Goldberg just recently. I get the other arguments but WWE control the whole narrative. This isn’t like sports where it’s all unpredictable and you have to change narratives on the fly to suit different opinions. They control everything. So if the intention wasn’t to make her into a monster...don’t hype her up as one. Hype other aspects, build Emma up and then you can do whatever match you want that suits whatever you’ve built. This feels like it isn’t hard. Yeah, I'm really not understanding the, "It's unreasonable that you expected her to be characterized the way WWE was characterizing her!" thing. They sold her as an unstoppable force of nature coming in and crushing this lowly jobber. That's not what they've done. The problem is that in the WWE you always have to have a competetive match no matter what. This is what has hurt Goldberg in his first go in the WWE: in WCW he beating guys in 30 seconds and they tried to give him long matches. They learned well when he returned, it had to be short and sweet.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 24, 2017 23:08:55 GMT -5
OK, so the point, I'm seeing is that "if we build her, she'll be dead after her first loss", in essence the Goldberg paradox. However, if the solution in match 1 is "make someone be competitive", then you have to have her lose right away, you have no choice. She has to lose, and then, in that division, just be somewhere in the middle. Thing is, that is saying "everything done in NXT to build a character, everything done by that creative staff must be deleted so that we can have her be part of the herd and not take the focus form the story we are telling about these other people". Again, I get it, but if the whole point of "what a draw is" in this era, or whatever the hell we're calling it, is one person who is just better than everyone, who everyone sucks up to and praises and then loses to handily adn who never ever looks bad or weak, even when the crowd hates it, then Asuka coming in and murdering the divsion is precisely how they make "stars". And if she loses? Just do what they do for every top person, ignore the loss, act like it doesn't matter, repeat.
But that's the whole point, because it ties into the "bad writing" claims people on the other side are saying. Asuka's whole gimmick right now is "Always win, never ever ever ever lose." That's fine to make a star. But the problem is there is the Goldberg paradox, where if your character is "Always win, never ever ever ever lose", then the second you DO lose, the character's over. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube- once you've lost, no matter if it's a clean win to the person's finisher in the dead center of the ring or Scott Hall attacking you with a tazer while the rest of the company jumps Asuka and dogpiles her to make the person pin her- or even an outright screwjob by the referees that was a fakeout loss, she still lost- and that means that you can't go back to "Always win, never ever ever ever lose" once you've lost...and we saw that in 1999 when Goldberg was just another guy within a manner of weeks after his first loss. It's worse with Asuka, because even for "Always win, never ever ever ever lose" guys in the past, there was still the question of "well, MAYBE this guy could beat him"..and that's the whole issue. There's this arrogance for Asuka that losing a match is somehow beneath her, and that not only are the wrestlers not good enough in kayfabe to beat her in a scripted match, the person behind the wrestler just isn't worthy of beating Asuka...and that makes matters worse, because even if the story does go to the reasonable "How would Asuka deal with a loss for the first time in her career", no matter how that loss happens, people will throw a temper tantrum that the person who beat her isn't WORTHY of that loss. That's where the bad writing comes into play, because the good writing for Asuka is simple: 1) Asuka goes on an undefeated streak and steamrolls everyone, making her a star. 2) This undefeated streak, in turn, is eventually broken by a woman on the main roster...and if you did it right, that win alone should make HER a star in turn. If the women are seen as in Asuka's league, then eventually that good writing will come to pass. If the women are NOT seen as in Asuka's league then the worst-case scenario will come to pass: The fact Asuka lost will cool off Asuka and make her just another woman on the roster, AND because no one saw the woman as in Asuka's league, the loss will be written off as a fluke and the woman who beats her won't look better as a result.
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Post by boliv84 on Oct 24, 2017 23:53:08 GMT -5
I think we can pretty much all agree that Emma was way too weak build up to be a threat for Asuka. As is Emma generally criminally underused by Raw (not necessarily in the sense of too few TV time but with the terrible creative and booking they gave her to work with). But it was a good match and I do not think a over dominant win would have been good even for Asuka. For several reasons. 1) You have only so few women in the division, if Asuka starts be so over-dominant right from first PPV, you soon run against a wall. 2) She had with Emma a kayfabe rather weak opponent, but certainly one of the better real wrestlers. Would have been a waste, especially considering there are just so few women, to not give it at least some time. 3) The big danger is that the main roster casuals see her on the main roster as uninteresting. Especially with the lack of mic promos. Asuka is no Goldberg, Lesnar etc. (yes the look is important here), you should not build her up that way and give her instead some showcase time in matches.
So this was fine as a debut. With two exceptions: The commentary (for both, though it had one little hope when they presented Emma a bit as talented but unfocused, because that would allow her to become stronger with the explanation that she was now focused). And of course they shall now not make Emma enhancement again on the roster (generally do not do that), because that will indeed make Asuka look bad.
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