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Post by angryfan on Oct 23, 2017 22:15:32 GMT -5
My thought ont he match, let's use any other recent NXT callup (recent being the last few years). They call up KO, and instead of Cena, he shows up with the NXT belt while Ziggler is in the ring, calls him out, and they have a competitive back and forth for a few minutes. Does KO look like a killer? No, he looks like the "top guy in NXT who is competitive with the guy who everyone on the roster runs through and beats all the time". That doesn't make an imporession, it makes "another guy".
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 23, 2017 22:19:42 GMT -5
There is no excuse for doing that match twice
Really just derailing Asuka's momentum having two useless Emma matches like this, and I LIKE Emma...
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Post by chronocross on Oct 23, 2017 22:32:00 GMT -5
Use the Wackyline!
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 23, 2017 23:06:48 GMT -5
But that's the same thing- I did read the thread, and understand the concerns. Just like there's the same concern since the videos started of people basically saying "Asuka CAN'T LOSE to Brock Lesnar- he's BENEATH HER!" is what is going to kill Asuka far more than a million 50/50 matches or a hundred million "She likes to have fun and entertain the WWE Universe!" claims. You can't honestly be taking people's comments towards an Asuka/Brock match seriously. Who actually said that? And no, it's not the same thing. If you have a narrative of someone's debut from NXT you need to continue that narrative on the main roster. You can't suddenly switch it to something else midway and expect that to be good writing or acceptable regardless of who the opponents are because there's a multitude of factors into play. Just because you need to build other women doesn't mean it's acceptable for Asuka's story and the fact that Emma hasn't been built up go under that. That's damaging 2 of the 3 you're looking at. That's one problem that I have about this whole thing. People seem to think the fact you need to build up other stars is a "get out of jail free card" for other cases of bad writing and damaging others when really if something is bad writing it's bad writing. There's no "well I think this is worse so this matters the most." If something isn't great for the progression of the characters and story call a spade a spade. In this case it not only switched the story of Asuka (which has casuals/people who didn't know her/people who were following the story) confused and upset but you have it done to her by someone who, again story, hasn't been built up at all. Building up wrestlers is story-related. You can't damage the story and expect it to be ok just because you get some extras moves done on an opponent in the match. If that was the case you wouldn't have people whining that Jinder won the title when he was dominating Balor in a match months ago. Lastly...look at their rematch tonight and go back to the thread and read the responses. That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's no different than Nakamura and Roode both being damaged by the Ziggler feuds. Same thing. Different opponent. Doesn't change the same fact. The fact remains, everyone buys into the hype for Asuka so much that it's gone past any semblance of her losing because everyone- literally every human being on earth and any possible planets that we may discover life on- is considered not just in Asuka's league, but even playing Asuka's sport. IF she loses to anyone, from Emma all the way up to Undertaker at Wrestlemania, the response is "She can't lose to them, they're BENEATH HER!" This fact is going to kill Asuka on th emain roster. More than anything else will, because it's seen where Asuka could lose to Kairi Sane (the one person who's MAYBE seen as being in Asuka's league), by Kairi Sane cheating, and every Raw, SDL, and NXT woman jumping Asuka before the match, possibly including some MEN jumping Asuka as well- and not just jobbers, but Brock, Roman, Lesnar, Joe level guys- and it would be seen as just as big a "there is no coming back from this loss with your aura intact" as if Brock Lesnar were to lose cleanly to James Ellsworth. That fact guarantees that eventually, Asuka's buzz will be gone after her first loss- and this time, it won't be Vince McBoogeyman who killed Asuka, it'll be our own damn fault.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 23:31:19 GMT -5
You can't honestly be taking people's comments towards an Asuka/Brock match seriously. Who actually said that? And no, it's not the same thing. If you have a narrative of someone's debut from NXT you need to continue that narrative on the main roster. You can't suddenly switch it to something else midway and expect that to be good writing or acceptable regardless of who the opponents are because there's a multitude of factors into play. Just because you need to build other women doesn't mean it's acceptable for Asuka's story and the fact that Emma hasn't been built up go under that. That's damaging 2 of the 3 you're looking at. That's one problem that I have about this whole thing. People seem to think the fact you need to build up other stars is a "get out of jail free card" for other cases of bad writing and damaging others when really if something is bad writing it's bad writing. There's no "well I think this is worse so this matters the most." If something isn't great for the progression of the characters and story call a spade a spade. In this case it not only switched the story of Asuka (which has casuals/people who didn't know her/people who were following the story) confused and upset but you have it done to her by someone who, again story, hasn't been built up at all. Building up wrestlers is story-related. You can't damage the story and expect it to be ok just because you get some extras moves done on an opponent in the match. If that was the case you wouldn't have people whining that Jinder won the title when he was dominating Balor in a match months ago. Lastly...look at their rematch tonight and go back to the thread and read the responses. That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's no different than Nakamura and Roode both being damaged by the Ziggler feuds. Same thing. Different opponent. Doesn't change the same fact. The fact remains, everyone buys into the hype for Asuka so much that it's gone past any semblance of her losing because everyone- literally every human being on earth and any possible planets that we may discover life on- is considered not just in Asuka's league, but even playing Asuka's sport. IF she loses to anyone, from Emma all the way up to Undertaker at Wrestlemania, the response is "She can't lose to them, they're BENEATH HER!" This fact is going to kill Asuka on th emain roster. More than anything else will, because it's seen where Asuka could lose to Kairi Sane (the one person who's MAYBE seen as being in Asuka's league), by Kairi Sane cheating, and every Raw, SDL, and NXT woman jumping Asuka before the match, possibly including some MEN jumping Asuka as well- and not just jobbers, but Brock, Roman, Lesnar, Joe level guys- and it would be seen as just as big a "there is no coming back from this loss with your aura intact" as if Brock Lesnar were to lose cleanly to James Ellsworth. That fact guarantees that eventually, Asuka's buzz will be gone after her first loss- and this time, it won't be Vince McBoogeyman who killed Asuka, it'll be our own damn fault. The biggest problem with what you're saying is this: you're talking about future situations while we're talking the present. In the present how she's been presented is far different than what the previews stated. In the present Emma's booking hasn't been great enough to force her to be at the level to what they've claimed Asuka to be. What you're mentioning refers to situations that can be during an unknown time period with different variables and a different story attached to it. We're talking about SDL attacking the Raw roster tonight, not Reigns just becoming a 10x world champion years from now. They can easily morph the story so it's more accessible when Asuka eventually does lose but that not only takes time. That takes great writing, it takes more matches, more time for her to adapt, more stories as a whole. That's the whole point of why people are upset here. You don't suddenly go from a dominator and being called "unstoppable" to being, and I quote from tonight, "dominated by Emma" who's someone who's been getting her ass beat constantly. What's going to kill Asuka on the main roster is these changes and these issues. It's the same thing that happened with Nakamura when he was being dominated by Ziggler and people were pissed about it. Had Ziggler built up a resume as being an unstoppable force and had Nakamura's story been "can he adapt to the main roster" then we wouldn't have had the reactions we did. As for Asuka, we see what it is. Her buzz has already taken a shot now. If you disagree read the thread tonight. Read the comments from others. If you don't get that and if you want to keep talking about the future (which is undetermined) rather than the present (which we can see with our own eyes now) then God bless you. We're talking about the present and that's bad writing and bad storytelling. There's no excuse for changing the narrative of a story out of nowhere like they did.
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AlexaBliss4Life
Unicron
Alexa Bliss is the Queen the wrestling world needs!
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Post by AlexaBliss4Life on Oct 24, 2017 0:03:32 GMT -5
2 matches in guys, chill..
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BigAl
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Post by BigAl on Oct 24, 2017 0:17:52 GMT -5
2 matches in guys, chill.. 2 matches with thw same person that got tbe general wwe fans already not impressed with her. So no, it is not good
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AlexaBliss4Life
Unicron
Alexa Bliss is the Queen the wrestling world needs!
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Post by AlexaBliss4Life on Oct 24, 2017 0:18:52 GMT -5
2 matches in guys, chill.. 2 matches with thw same person that got tbe general wwe fans already not impressed with her. So no, it is not good Give her time. She can't go in and crush like NXT because there's less people.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Oct 24, 2017 0:21:05 GMT -5
You don't suddenly go from a dominator and being called "unstoppable" to being, and I quote from tonight, "dominated by Emma" who's someone who's been getting her ass beat constantly. What's going to kill Asuka on the main roster is these changes and these issues. It's the same thing that happened with Nakamura when he was being dominated by Ziggler and people were pissed about it. Had Ziggler built up a resume as being an unstoppable force and had Nakamura's story been "can he adapt to the main roster" then we wouldn't have had the reactions we did. As for Asuka, we see what it is. Her buzz has already taken a shot now. If you disagree read the thread tonight. Read the comments from others. If you don't get that and if you want to keep talking about the future (which is undetermined) rather than the present (which we can see with our own eyes now) then God bless you. That, I agree with, but it ties into what I'm saying because quite frankly, Asuka's buzz NEEDED TO take a shot just to get her down to the level of "okay, maybe it's humanly possible for her to lose a match"- because she's GOING TO LOSE, eventually. And it's going to be to someone people think is BENEATH her, because WWE's not going to do intergender and have her fight the men, she will have to lose to women- and if she loses to Ronda or Stephanie, people will be as devastated. The future may be in the future, but in the PAST, which we've seen for 8 weeks now, the response has been "She can't lose to [X], they're BENEATH HER!", and so in the present today, they needed to make Emma (or anyone else Asuka beats) look good, just to make them look like they're in her league. The future may be undetermined, but from what we've seen since Asuka got the callup to now, the present needs to still keeping her undefeated and still putting her in good matches...but also still needs to take her down a peg just so that people will stop whining that "Asuka can't lose to Undertaker at Wrestlemania, he's BENEATH HER!" so that her future WILL look brighter for it.
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Post by Ash Kingston on Oct 24, 2017 0:21:14 GMT -5
...I didn't think the match was that bad tonight. Emma took advantage of throwing Asuka into the ring post, had a bit of offense, tried to cheat by grabbing Asuka's trunks, and paid for it.
Then again, I completely zoned out on the commentary once Maggle and Booker NoWitt started talking after the ass-check, so maybe that helped?
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Moppy
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,200
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Post by Moppy on Oct 24, 2017 0:30:29 GMT -5
I think I'm in the minority here, but I don't particularly have a problem with Asuka's treatment over the past 2 nights.
2 victories out of 2, job done. Plus, I enjoyed the match at TLC.
Plus, the commentators were reeeaallly going all out to put her over strong. True, they didn't do a particularly great job of that, but are we surprised? You could tell what the intention was.
The real test is where they take her from here, and just how many victories she racks up. She's far from damaged goods after two unexpectedly-even matches.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 0:34:52 GMT -5
You don't suddenly go from a dominator and being called "unstoppable" to being, and I quote from tonight, "dominated by Emma" who's someone who's been getting her ass beat constantly. What's going to kill Asuka on the main roster is these changes and these issues. It's the same thing that happened with Nakamura when he was being dominated by Ziggler and people were pissed about it. Had Ziggler built up a resume as being an unstoppable force and had Nakamura's story been "can he adapt to the main roster" then we wouldn't have had the reactions we did. As for Asuka, we see what it is. Her buzz has already taken a shot now. If you disagree read the thread tonight. Read the comments from others. If you don't get that and if you want to keep talking about the future (which is undetermined) rather than the present (which we can see with our own eyes now) then God bless you. That, I agree with, but it ties into what I'm saying because quite frankly, Asuka's buzz NEEDED TO take a shot just to get her down to the level of "okay, maybe it's humanly possible for her to lose a match"- because she's GOING TO LOSE, eventually. And it's going to be to someone people think is BENEATH her, because WWE's not going to do intergender and have her fight the men, she will have to lose to women- and if she loses to Ronda or Stephanie, people will be as devastated. The future may be in the future, but in the PAST, which we've seen for 8 weeks now, the response has been "She can't lose to [X], they're BENEATH HER!", and so in the present today, they needed to make Emma (or anyone else Asuka beats) look good, just to make them look like they're in her league. The future may be undetermined, but from what we've seen since Asuka got the callup to now, the present needs to still keeping her undefeated and still putting her in good matches...but also still needs to take her down a peg just so that people will stop whining that "Asuka can't lose to Undertaker at Wrestlemania, he's BENEATH HER!" so that her future WILL look brighter for it. And nothing you've said has debunked the legit complaints people have, that's the point I'm making here. You're speaking on things that aren't those legit complaints. Nothing you said took away from that fact that the narrative of the story was changed out of nowhere (which confused/upset casuals/people who don't know Asuka) and the fact that Emma, someone who wasn't built up well, was dominating her. Honestly these are things you can't really debate upon given what's present. Either you agree that the story was changed and they didn't build Emma up well to compete with Asuka or you don't. Nobody is talking about the fact that they do need to build women up (I and others state they do in this very thread) nor did anybody say that Asuka wasn't going to eventually lose (we all know that) but there's ways you can do it without changing the story and ways you can do it that build Emma and other women up well. They just didn't do it because of bad writing. I mean that's it. You're speaking on things that aren't people's concerns. If you understand people's concerns (your post in this thread stated you did) you need to straight up say "I know they changed Asuka's story and I know they didn't build Emma up well to compete with her." If you don't understand their concerns then you think they did a great job building Emma and you think Asuka's story these past few weeks wasn't something they stated in those videos. This is going in circle now but I'll just end it with this... 1.) Do you think they built Emma up well to face Asuka given all they've said about her? Yes or no. 2.) Do you think the fact they straight up used the words "dominating" and "annihilating" when referencing Asuka these past few weeks and then you have Emma dominating her to the point where they said "Emma's dominating Asuka" makes sense? From a story perspective. We're not talking why they did it, we're talking about if they did, if it made sense and if it's great execution.
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Post by benstudd on Oct 24, 2017 0:41:15 GMT -5
The problem was fans online were selling her like she was the female Goldberg. That is not what I saw tonight.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 24, 2017 1:59:28 GMT -5
2 matches with thw same person that got tbe general wwe fans already not impressed with her. So no, it is not good Give her time. She can't go in and crush like NXT because there's less people. It's not so much that there were less people it's just that they could afford to space out her matches more with the shorter TV format and were more willing to use proper enhancement talents as the offense-less crash test dummies.
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Post by Doctor No on Oct 24, 2017 2:12:50 GMT -5
2 matches in guys, chill.. There is plenty of prior evidence to indicate that it's not just 2 matches but a sign of what's to come.
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Post by eJm on Oct 24, 2017 2:26:37 GMT -5
The problem was fans online were selling her like she was the female Goldberg. That is not what I saw tonight. Hell, WWE was selling her as the female Goldberg from those promo videos. They even bragged she had a bigger streak than Goldberg just recently. I get the other arguments but WWE control the whole narrative. This isn’t like sports where it’s all unpredictable and you have to change narratives on the fly to suit different opinions. They control everything. So if the intention wasn’t to make her into a monster...don’t hype her up as one. Hype other aspects, build Emma up and then you can do whatever match you want that suits whatever you’ve built. This feels like it isn’t hard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 2:33:52 GMT -5
The problem was fans online were selling her like she was the female Goldberg. That is not what I saw tonight. Hell, WWE was selling her as the female Goldberg from those promo videos. They even bragged she had a bigger streak than Goldberg just recently. I get the other arguments but WWE control the whole narrative. This isn’t like sports where it’s all unpredictable and you have to change narratives on the fly to suit different opinions. They control everything. So if the intention wasn’t to make her into a monster...don’t hype her up as one. Hype other aspects, build Emma up and then you can do whatever match you want that suits whatever you’ve built. This feels like it isn’t hard. Yeah, I'm really not understanding the, "It's unreasonable that you expected her to be characterized the way WWE was characterizing her!" thing. They sold her as an unstoppable force of nature coming in and crushing this lowly jobber. That's not what they've done.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Oct 24, 2017 2:43:34 GMT -5
I don't get why the WWE ends up bollocksing it up every time with a top NXT talent debuting on the main roster. Nakamura debuts against Dolph and what should have been a Nakamura showcase instead was Dolph controlling the entire pace of the match, ditto with Bobby Roode. The women's division is far too shallow to have a Goldberg or Brock running about in it but Asuka was never booked like that in NXT but Emma is the wrong person to be having a 50-50 match with Asuka when Emma is the very bottom of the division.
It's not the extent of Jinder Mahal where Emma has shown herself to be a very good wrestler but she has no credibility as a performer from a kayfabe standpoint.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 24, 2017 10:22:20 GMT -5
You don't suddenly go from a dominator and being called "unstoppable" to being, and I quote from tonight, "dominated by Emma" who's someone who's been getting her ass beat constantly. What's going to kill Asuka on the main roster is these changes and these issues. It's the same thing that happened with Nakamura when he was being dominated by Ziggler and people were pissed about it. Had Ziggler built up a resume as being an unstoppable force and had Nakamura's story been "can he adapt to the main roster" then we wouldn't have had the reactions we did. As for Asuka, we see what it is. Her buzz has already taken a shot now. If you disagree read the thread tonight. Read the comments from others. If you don't get that and if you want to keep talking about the future (which is undetermined) rather than the present (which we can see with our own eyes now) then God bless you. That, I agree with, but it ties into what I'm saying because quite frankly, Asuka's buzz NEEDED TO take a shot just to get her down to the level of "okay, maybe it's humanly possible for her to lose a match"- because she's GOING TO LOSE, eventually. And it's going to be to someone people think is BENEATH her, because WWE's not going to do intergender and have her fight the men, she will have to lose to women- and if she loses to Ronda or Stephanie, people will be as devastated. The future may be in the future, but in the PAST, which we've seen for 8 weeks now, the response has been "She can't lose to [X], they're BENEATH HER!", and so in the present today, they needed to make Emma (or anyone else Asuka beats) look good, just to make them look like they're in her league. The future may be undetermined, but from what we've seen since Asuka got the callup to now, the present needs to still keeping her undefeated and still putting her in good matches...but also still needs to take her down a peg just so that people will stop whining that "Asuka can't lose to Undertaker at Wrestlemania, he's BENEATH HER!" so that her future WILL look brighter for it. Yes Asuka will lose, she has to, and it has to be to someone, but so does everyone else. Since there's an odd Brock comparison for some reason, let's use his debut. He shows up, and murders everyone, repeatedly, like walking into matches where four guys are working and kills all of them, with ease. He had to lose at some point, someone had to be on his level, but they still went with "murder all the things" as his intro. Remember the Gowan "feud"? OK, Let's say instead of "murder the guy with one leg", Gowan was plucky, kept some heat, and got to run with Brock for a bit before he got beat. The match is just a not quite squash cause Gowan gets shots in but Brock still wins. Does it serve as a moment where people look back and go "The guy is a monster"? No, it would serve as "Well, see, Brock won against the guy, and the guy only has one leg, but he got some shots in, so Brock isn't really all that great, is he?"
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Post by Bungle on Oct 24, 2017 11:07:15 GMT -5
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