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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Aug 31, 2018 16:14:49 GMT -5
If Izzy was doing wrestling moves with her friends on a trampoline and putting it on Youtube the tenor of this thread would be very different but there's fundamentally no way to divorce what's happening here, whether you think it's okay or not, from the fact that some kid's being exploited because WWE acknowledged her a few times and people in wrestling are like f***ing vultures. I mean of course if it was her friends and on a trampoline it be different. They would be her size and a trampoline feels nothing like the hard wood and steel of a wrestling ring. God for bid they are in a shitty ring to because that can f*** someone up even more I’ve never bumped in a ring, but Mick Foley and Shane McMahon described it as falling on your back in the park, it has no give at all.
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Post by thetower52 on Aug 31, 2018 16:26:03 GMT -5
I mean of course if it was her friends and on a trampoline it be different. They would be her size and a trampoline feels nothing like the hard wood and steel of a wrestling ring. God for bid they are in a shitty ring to because that can f*** someone up even more I’ve never bumped in a ring, but Mick Foley and Shane McMahon described it as falling on your back in the park, it has no give at all. I have bumps in a ring and it f***ing blows. Specially for us big fellows. I never can shit on Nash for trying to bump as little as possible
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Aug 31, 2018 16:32:57 GMT -5
I’ve never bumped in a ring, but Mick Foley and Shane McMahon described it as falling on your back in the park, it has no give at all. I have bumps in a ring and it f***ing blows. Specially for us big fellows. I never can shit on Nash for trying to bump as little as possible Truth Martini had to stop bumping at f***ing thirty and become a manager. A ring is no place for a kid.
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Post by Square on Aug 31, 2018 19:54:01 GMT -5
I keep seeing a lot of people go "but Paige did it/people in the UK start young too". There's a difference in British and American wrestling, British wrestling is more about holds and reversals which is less damaging to your body than being thrown down constantly.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Aug 31, 2018 20:12:04 GMT -5
I keep seeing a lot of people go "but Paige did it/people in the UK start young too". There's a difference in British and American wrestling, British wrestling is more about holds and reversals which is less damaging to your body than being thrown down constantly. Same in Mexico, the real Mexico aka CMLL. In lucha you don’t really bump, it’s mostly about pins and rolling instead of bumping. That’s why Mil Mascaras is like 70 and still wrestles.
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Post by thetower52 on Aug 31, 2018 21:48:07 GMT -5
Paige doesn’t seem like the best example with her retiring at 26
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Post by Sparvid on Aug 31, 2018 22:06:11 GMT -5
This kid is a child being exploited. Not because this match,but everything else since the beginning as Bayley fan. I remember back when Bayley won the NXT Women's title, and someone posted a link to Izzy's reaction. And I was like "Wait, this happened in Brooklyn, and I'm pretty sure she wasn't in attendance there. So the only way to see her reaction would be if her parents went out of their way to film her and put up the footage to the general publi- Oh, that's apparently what happened."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 2:30:38 GMT -5
I find this entire argument to be quite strange.
It's too dangerous when you're young because you can get hurt, so examples are given of people retiring in their 20's - 40's due to accumulated injuries.
Which then implies that wrestling as an adult is hazardous too, even with training.
Then in other conversations on this board I've seen people suggest certain wrestlers should change their style. Or do certain moves or change them completely. Or stop wrestling in certain gimmick matches. Or wrestle limited schedules.
So then if risk is still there regardless of age and you still can get injured despite your age, and your body should not be taking bumps no matter that age, than age as an argument makes no sense.
You don't just automatically get less risk of injury like it's a Fallout perk just because you turned 18.
The only thing that can reduce that is training and even then it's not 100% immunity.
The point I'm making is, it appears that all these things are just beating around the bush and the actual contention is:
People shouldn't wrestle at all.
It's almost as if we're advocating for them to not do their job.
I feel that sometimes we forget that the people who have a passion for Pro Wrestling and want to pursue it as career, already understand that going into it and are willing to put their bodies on the line to achieve it. But now we're telling them to not entertain us and so when companies and wrestlers play it safe we complain that it's not exciting anymore.
Did we suddenly forget that chance of injury was part of the total package? (Lex Luger)
Now if you want say that Izzy may be too young to understand the risk involved or to make a life decision like that (or even what some others brought up here, people taking advantage of her), that's a discussion where age would be relevant.
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Post by RadcapRadsley on Sept 1, 2018 3:04:18 GMT -5
Feel bad about this,even though I think the kid has genuine enthusiasm for the sport. Her parents are thirsty famewhore's exploiting her. And not just her parents,a 12 year old girl taking bumps(even with the safest of workers) is some dangerous *hit that should not be happening.Whoever is running any event that uses her as a worker are scumbags.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 1, 2018 5:29:58 GMT -5
I find this entire argument to be quite strange. It's too dangerous when you're young because you can get hurt, so examples are given of people retiring in their 20's - 40's due to accumulated injuries. Which then implies that wrestling as an adult is hazardous too, even with training. Then in other conversations on this board I've seen people suggest certain wrestlers should change their style. Or do certain moves or change them completely. Or stop wrestling in certain gimmick matches. Or wrestle limited schedules. So then if risk is still there regardless of age and you still can get injured despite your age, and your body should not be taking bumps no matter that age, than age as an argument makes no sense. You don't just automatically get less risk of injury like it's a Fallout perk just because you turned 18. The only thing that can reduce that is training and even then it's not 100% immunity. The point I'm making is, it appears that all these things are just beating around the bush and the actual contention is: People shouldn't wrestle at all.It's almost as if we're advocating for them to not do their job. I feel that sometimes we forget that the people who have a passion for Pro Wrestling and want to pursue it as career, already understand that going into it and are willing to put their bodies on the line to achieve it. But now we're telling them to not entertain us and so when companies and wrestlers play it safe we complain that it's not exciting anymore. Did we suddenly forget that chance of injury was part of the total package? (Lex Luger) Now if you want say that Izzy may be too young to understand the risk involved or to make a life decision like that (or even what some others brought up here, people taking advantage of her), that's a discussion where age would be relevant. No you don't magically become resistant to injury at 18. But age is still relevant when the kid has barely hit puberty and her bones aren't properly formed yet. Injuries sustained while they're still growing are going to be more damaging than ones after they're formed. She's bumping as her spine is growing, that can literally give her a bent spine for the rest of her life.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Sept 1, 2018 8:30:02 GMT -5
I find this entire argument to be quite strange. It's too dangerous when you're young because you can get hurt, so examples are given of people retiring in their 20's - 40's due to accumulated injuries. Which then implies that wrestling as an adult is hazardous too, even with training. Then in other conversations on this board I've seen people suggest certain wrestlers should change their style. Or do certain moves or change them completely. Or stop wrestling in certain gimmick matches. Or wrestle limited schedules. So then if risk is still there regardless of age and you still can get injured despite your age, and your body should not be taking bumps no matter that age, than age as an argument makes no sense. You don't just automatically get less risk of injury like it's a Fallout perk just because you turned 18. The only thing that can reduce that is training and even then it's not 100% immunity. The point I'm making is, it appears that all these things are just beating around the bush and the actual contention is: People shouldn't wrestle at all.It's almost as if we're advocating for them to not do their job. I feel that sometimes we forget that the people who have a passion for Pro Wrestling and want to pursue it as career, already understand that going into it and are willing to put their bodies on the line to achieve it. But now we're telling them to not entertain us and so when companies and wrestlers play it safe we complain that it's not exciting anymore. Did we suddenly forget that chance of injury was part of the total package? (Lex Luger) Now if you want say that Izzy may be too young to understand the risk involved or to make a life decision like that (or even what some others brought up here, people taking advantage of her), that's a discussion where age would be relevant. If you’re an adult, fully developed in mind and body, and choose that profession knowing the risks, that’s your call. If you’re a 12 year old you should not be doing it. Simple as that.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 1, 2018 9:10:32 GMT -5
I find this entire argument to be quite strange. It's too dangerous when you're young because you can get hurt, so examples are given of people retiring in their 20's - 40's due to accumulated injuries. Which then implies that wrestling as an adult is hazardous too, even with training. Then in other conversations on this board I've seen people suggest certain wrestlers should change their style. Or do certain moves or change them completely. Or stop wrestling in certain gimmick matches. Or wrestle limited schedules. So then if risk is still there regardless of age and you still can get injured despite your age, and your body should not be taking bumps no matter that age, than age as an argument makes no sense. You don't just automatically get less risk of injury like it's a Fallout perk just because you turned 18. The only thing that can reduce that is training and even then it's not 100% immunity. The point I'm making is, it appears that all these things are just beating around the bush and the actual contention is: People shouldn't wrestle at all.It's almost as if we're advocating for them to not do their job. I feel that sometimes we forget that the people who have a passion for Pro Wrestling and want to pursue it as career, already understand that going into it and are willing to put their bodies on the line to achieve it. But now we're telling them to not entertain us and so when companies and wrestlers play it safe we complain that it's not exciting anymore. Did we suddenly forget that chance of injury was part of the total package? (Lex Luger) Now if you want say that Izzy may be too young to understand the risk involved or to make a life decision like that (or even what some others brought up here, people taking advantage of her), that's a discussion where age would be relevant. Browser crash lost me the bulk of a lengthier reply so I'm going to just cut through it; by the time Izzy is old enough to make a decision in her life about that, she will be an entirely different person than she one she is now. What I was at age 12 was not even remotely who I was when I was eighteen and starting college. Most people at 12 have wildly different ideas of what they want to do with their lives than they will when they're filling out college applications or whatever steps they're taking, but they don't spend their formative years before they can choose doing stuff with lasting, severe consequences like that. Like I hate how we come around to these ideas of "Wrestling is dangerous period" any time there's a discussion about trying to be safer or less insane, like since it's already an inherent danger there's no point in trying. But here's an important factor to consider; Page retiring at age 26. Paige debuted when she was 13, and let's say that there is nothing about bumping and working at that young an age that had any impact on the neck issues or any other problems with her body that come from taking these impacts at a period of growth. A thirteen year career that has her hanging up her boots in her mid-twenties. If she had these exact same factors and issues wearing her down but started training when she was like 18 and debuted at like 19 or 20, she would have been hanging it up in her early thirties instead. That's a significant chunk of time in the early years of her adulthood. Will Ospreay is a man who breaks his neck for a living and it's likely he's going to retire later in life than Paige did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 18:54:33 GMT -5
No you don't magically become resistant to injury at 18. But age is still relevant when the kid has barely hit puberty and her bones aren't properly formed yet. Injuries sustained while they're still growing are going to be more damaging than ones after they're formed. She's bumping as her spine is growing, that can literally give her a bent spine for the rest of her life. Virtually all those things can happen to an adult as well. If we start at the extreme, and agree that worst injury you can incur is death, than it doesn't matter what age you are. I think there is a false equivalence that youth = more injures. Could it happen faster? Sure As mentioned bones are still forming. But that doesn't mean injures that adults face aren't any less severe. We just sympathize/empathize more intimately when it's a kid(for obvious reasons). We often see childhood as synonymous with innocence and as adults who are inherently protective of that(usually rightfully so), we tend to apply safety more severely in response and on some occasions make a situation more overblown that it actually is. Which we tend to make fun of a lot actually. (Insert simpsonswon'tyoupleasethinkofthechildren.gif meme here.) by the time Izzy is old enough to make a decision in her life about that, she will be an entirely different person than she one she is now. What I was at age 12 was not even remotely who I was when I was eighteen and starting college. Most people at 12 have wildly different ideas of what they want to do with their lives than they will when they're filling out college applications or whatever steps they're taking, but they don't spend their formative years before they can choose doing stuff with lasting, severe consequences like that. I agree. Age is entirely relevant here. However this is unrelated to the topic of injuries. It's more an introspective career/life decision that she will be more equipped at making after her teenage years. Like I hate how we come around to these ideas of "Wrestling is dangerous period" any time there's a discussion about trying to be safer or less insane, like since it's already an inherent danger there's no point in trying. Well, wrestling is dangerous. Period. That would be hard to argue against. If it came off like I implied that there is no point in trying, let me be clear here. I am for the exact opposite of that. The reason I brought up the suggestions to alter wrestling style, changing moves, what company they wrestle in, what matches the participate in, is because in my opinion it's a moot point. Anything in wrestling can be argued as hazardous and at this point everything eventually will be. It's the inherent nature of the business.The only way to ensure that nobody gets hurt is if they don't wrestle at all, as having a career with 0 injuries is highly unlikely. And I don't see anyone here arguing for that. So I think rather than limiting what people can do, in what matches they can do it in, and in which manner in they should only be able to do it, and having the entertainment and product suffer as a result (And please, I'm not suggesting people should take unnecessary risks and do piledrivers from the rafters or something), instead we should have performers who are: - As educated about the business as possible - Trained to perform as best as possible - Working as safe with their peers as possible Other than that, let your creativity flow. I feel sometimes wrestlers ability to innovate is squandered because there is always someone making an argument as to why they shouldn't. Telling a wrestler they can't do something because they might get hurt is like telling a police officer they shouldn't enforce the law because they might get shot. But here's an important factor to consider; Page retiring at age 26. Paige debuted when she was 13, and let's say that there is nothing about bumping and working at that young an age that had any impact on the neck issues or any other problems with her body that come from taking these impacts at a period of growth. I never made that argument. I never said that bumping at a young age wouldn't give you problems or that there wouldn't be problems at all. I argued that a child sustaining injuries in wrestling in and of itself is not any more or less significant than an adult sustaining injuries and perhaps we should not make a distinction. A thirteen year career that has her hanging up her boots in her mid-twenties. If she had these exact same factors and issues wearing her down but started training when she was like 18 and debuted at like 19 or 20, she would have been hanging it up in her early thirties instead. That's a significant chunk of time in the early years of her adulthood. Will Ospreay is a man who breaks his neck for a living and it's likely he's going to retire later in life than Paige did. In that scenario if we were to change *when* she started the only thing that would change is her age at which she retired. Her time in the business would still be thirteen years. The amount or type of her injuries would not decrease or change as a result. It just would make wrestling fans more accepting of her retirement.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 3, 2018 6:14:26 GMT -5
But here's an important factor to consider; Page retiring at age 26. Paige debuted when she was 13, and let's say that there is nothing about bumping and working at that young an age that had any impact on the neck issues or any other problems with her body that come from taking these impacts at a period of growth. I never made that argument. I never said that bumping at a young age wouldn't give you problems or that there wouldn't be problems at all. I argued that a child sustaining injuries in wrestling in and of itself is not any more or less significant than an adult sustaining injuries and perhaps we should not make a distinction. A thirteen year career that has her hanging up her boots in her mid-twenties. If she had these exact same factors and issues wearing her down but started training when she was like 18 and debuted at like 19 or 20, she would have been hanging it up in her early thirties instead. That's a significant chunk of time in the early years of her adulthood. Will Ospreay is a man who breaks his neck for a living and it's likely he's going to retire later in life than Paige did. In that scenario if we were to change *when* she started the only thing that would change is her age at which she retired. Her time in the business would still be thirteen years. The amount or type of her injuries would not decrease or change as a result. It just would make wrestling fans more accepting of her retirement. The top part isn't addressing any statement you said but doing a thought exercise wherein we assume there's no greater risks to bumping when your body is still developing that wouldn't be present later in life and that there would be 1:1 wear and tear on her body, to express the time frames of the second part, and even that's a bit of a rough sell because injuries sustained when your body is developing can introduce more and different complications, and it's possible the scoliosis Paige has came directly from bumping, where it likely wouldn't have if she started in her adult life. Sure her time in the business would be 13 years but retiring due to injuries at 26 versus retiring from injures at maybe 31 or 33 would still be a very differently led life and one where you're not losing as much of it to injuries that down the road are likely to cause some issues. Telling me she retires at the same time like that disproves my point when I even pointed out "even if she retires at the same time shes does that older" is a weird angle to take.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 3, 2018 8:58:40 GMT -5
I don't know that it's possible to intelligently weigh in given opinions are gonna be based largely on speculation in regards to motive, safety, etc
Uncomfortable topic either way
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 9:39:00 GMT -5
The top part isn't addressing any statement you said but doing a thought exercise wherein we assume there's no greater risks to bumping when your body is still developing that wouldn't be present later in life and that there would be 1:1 wear and tear on her body, to express the time frames of the second part, and even that's a bit of a rough sell because injuries sustained when your body is developing can introduce more and different complications, and it's possible the scoliosis Paige has came directly from bumping, where it likely wouldn't have if she started in her adult life. If it wasn't a response to anything I said, and if it wasn't an argument that anyone was making, than what was the purpose of bringing it up? Sure her time in the business would be 13 years but retiring due to injuries at 26 versus retiring from injures at maybe 31 or 33 would still be a very differently led life and one where you're not losing as much of it to injuries that down the road are likely to cause some issues. Telling me she retires at the same time like that disproves my point when I even pointed out "even if she retires at the same time shes does that older" is a weird angle to take. In your scenario literally nothing was different other than the age at which she started/retired. You even specified she still received the same injuries. In fact you said initially: "let's say that there is nothing about bumping and working at that young an age that had any impact on the neck issues or any other problems with her body that come from taking these impacts at a period of growth." But then went on to say she still got the same injuries anyway: "If she had these exact same factors and issues wearing her down but started training when she was like 18 and debuted at like 19 or 20, she would have been hanging it up in her early thirties instead" If that is the case than my argument would still stand. The only thing that changes is her age. She still gets the same injuries. Which is odd because I think you are arguing that her problems would not be as severe because she started after puberty. You kinda worked against your own argument. Let me restate my position: You can sustain injuries when you're young. You can sustain injuries when you're older. You get hurt either way. The injuries between them may be different in terms of what they are specifically, but does not mean they couldn't be equal in severity. We shouldn't turn it into a "Who gets hurt the most" contest when worst thing that could happen to both of them is death. Education is what's important and it's a topic where age has actual relevancy. You brought up Paige as an example. Allow me to counter that. Droz. Droz wrestled from 97-99. 3 Year career. Became a quadriplegic at 29. Wrestling doesn't care how old you are.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 3, 2018 9:48:57 GMT -5
The top part isn't addressing any statement you said but doing a thought exercise wherein we assume there's no greater risks to bumping when your body is still developing that wouldn't be present later in life and that there would be 1:1 wear and tear on her body, to express the time frames of the second part, and even that's a bit of a rough sell because injuries sustained when your body is developing can introduce more and different complications, and it's possible the scoliosis Paige has came directly from bumping, where it likely wouldn't have if she started in her adult life. If it wasn't a response to anything I said, and if it wasn't an argument that anyone was making, than what was the purpose of bringing it up? Sure her time in the business would be 13 years but retiring due to injuries at 26 versus retiring from injures at maybe 31 or 33 would still be a very differently led life and one where you're not losing as much of it to injuries that down the road are likely to cause some issues. Telling me she retires at the same time like that disproves my point when I even pointed out "even if she retires at the same time shes does that older" is a weird angle to take. In your scenario literally nothing was different other than the age at which she started/retired. You even specified she still received the same injuries. In fact you said initially: "let's say that there is nothing about bumping and working at that young an age that had any impact on the neck issues or any other problems with her body that come from taking these impacts at a period of growth." But then went on to say she still got the same injuries anyway: "If she had these exact same factors and issues wearing her down but started training when she was like 18 and debuted at like 19 or 20, she would have been hanging it up in her early thirties instead" If that is the case than my argument would still stand. The only thing that changes is her age. She still gets the same injuries. Which is odd because I think you are arguing that her problems would not be as severe because she started after puberty. You kinda worked against your own argument. Let me restate my position: You can sustain injuries when you're young. You can sustain injuries when you're older. You get hurt either way. The injuries between them may be different in terms of what they are specifically, but does not mean they couldn't be equal in severity. We shouldn't turn it into a "Who gets hurt the most" contest when worst thing that could happen to both of them is death. Education is what's important and it's a topic where age has actual relevancy. You brought up Paige as an example. Allow me to counter that. Droz. Droz wrestled from 97-99. 3 Year career. Became a quadriplegic at 29. Wrestling doesn't care how old you are. No, I'm saying that if she got those same injuries at a later age they would be impacting less of her life when in its prime. A thirteen career for 13-26 ending with your body all f***ed up is pretty bad. A career 20-33 is also pretty shitty. One feels slightly less shitty to me. Droz has nothing to do with that and what I'm trying to say here, which is that the consequences of wrestling are unavoidable, but that starting at it when you're 12 has significantly longer-scale quality of life consequences that are going to take up mch more of your life for getting such a head start on them. That "let's assume same injures" thing was to lay the basis of a quick little thought experiment to express the point, you're taking a qualifying "let's just say" hypothetical and stretching it out to way more of a facet of my argument than it really needs to be. Wrestling early can f*** things up harder; I'm saying that even if you take that out of the equation, there's this other factor here to consider. Nobody gets out of wrestling unscathed. Doesn't mean starting them young isn't a good way to make that damage feel a whole lot worse.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 2:05:00 GMT -5
No, I'm saying that if she got those same injuries at a later age they would be impacting less of her life when in its prime. A thirteen career for 13-26 ending with your body all f***ed up is pretty bad. A career 20-33 is also pretty shitty. One feels slightly less shitty to me. Droz has nothing to do with that and what I'm trying to say here, which is that the consequences of wrestling are unavoidable, but that starting at it when you're 12 has significantly longer-scale quality of life consequences that are going to take up mch more of your life for getting such a head start on them. That "let's assume same injures" thing was to lay the basis of a quick little thought experiment to express the point, you're taking a qualifying "let's just say" hypothetical and stretching it out to way more of a facet of my argument than it really needs to be. Wrestling early can f*** things up harder; I'm saying that even if you take that out of the equation, there's this other factor here to consider. Nobody gets out of wrestling unscathed. Doesn't mean starting them young isn't a good way to make that damage feel a whole lot worse. You keep attributing this argument to me that I never made. I never said she should be wrestling at that age, nor did I say that she would sustain negligible issues as a result. Droz has nothing to do with that and what I'm trying to say here, which is that the consequences of wrestling are unavoidable, but that starting at it when you're 12 has significantly longer-scale quality of life consequences that are going to take up mch more of your life for getting such a head start on them. Droz is absolutely relevant to this conversation. You keep painting Paige's career as if it's some herculean tragedy that got cut short and she didn't accomplish legacy worthy goals because of it. 1. Droz's career was 3 years to her 13. You argued that injuries when you are younger can impact your quality of life as if injuries at older ages didn't have that kind of impact. 2. Droz's injuries are far more severe than Paige's and I directly compare the two because in using Paige as an example you seem to suggest that this could be Izzy's future. Paige retired at 26 3. Droz was forced into retirement at 29/30 All of the these things stand in stark contrast to your assertions that starting your career later is somehow more beneficial. You can not prepare for freak accidents, unforeseen injuries, or untimely deaths. That is at the core of my argument. That this is the ultimate risk you take and one at which copious amounts of training or age cannot prevent. That "let's assume same injures" thing was to lay the basis of a quick little thought experiment to express the point, you're taking a qualifying "let's just say" hypothetical and stretching it out to way more of a facet of my argument than it really needs to be. I'm pointing out a contradiction in the scenario. You said injuries and issues were the same, which to me implies that the way they affect her body are still the same in this hypothetical. Otherwise you would have said something like: If Paige started later her bones would have been more fully formed which would mean she wouldn't have scoliosis affect her has harshly as it does currently etc... You defined the parameters. I'm just working with them. Wrestling early can f*** things up harder How? The injuries are not worse if you are younger. They are not worse if you are older. The injuries are just diagnosed differently. - You can still sustain an injury that disrupts the quality of life - You can still sustain an injury that prevents or ends a career - You can still sustain a life ending injury - You can still sustain spinal injury - You can still sustain head trauma - You can still sustain broken bones - You can still sustain nerve damage If you are younger it affects you as you are growing, if you are older it affects how it functions at it's current mature state. It does not mean, in any way, that one age demographic can get an injury that the other one can't. In conclusion: Izzy shouldn't wrestle at this age not because it's dangerous risk on her body. It's a risk at any age. Izzy shouldn't wrestle at this age because she isn't old enough to fully understand and/or consent to the full ramifications of wrestling as a career path nor is equipped to defend herself from people who wish to take advantage of her. Which as it seems, even includes her own parents.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 6, 2018 7:53:35 GMT -5
No, I'm saying that if she got those same injuries at a later age they would be impacting less of her life when in its prime. A thirteen career for 13-26 ending with your body all f***ed up is pretty bad. A career 20-33 is also pretty shitty. One feels slightly less shitty to me. Droz has nothing to do with that and what I'm trying to say here, which is that the consequences of wrestling are unavoidable, but that starting at it when you're 12 has significantly longer-scale quality of life consequences that are going to take up mch more of your life for getting such a head start on them. That "let's assume same injures" thing was to lay the basis of a quick little thought experiment to express the point, you're taking a qualifying "let's just say" hypothetical and stretching it out to way more of a facet of my argument than it really needs to be. Wrestling early can f*** things up harder; I'm saying that even if you take that out of the equation, there's this other factor here to consider. Nobody gets out of wrestling unscathed. Doesn't mean starting them young isn't a good way to make that damage feel a whole lot worse. You keep attributing this argument to me that I never made. I never said she should be wrestling at that age, nor did I say that she would sustain negligible issues as a result. Droz has nothing to do with that and what I'm trying to say here, which is that the consequences of wrestling are unavoidable, but that starting at it when you're 12 has significantly longer-scale quality of life consequences that are going to take up mch more of your life for getting such a head start on them. Droz is absolutely relevant to this conversation. You keep painting Paige's career as if it's some herculean tragedy that got cut short and she didn't accomplish legacy worthy goals because of it. 1. Droz's career was 3 years to her 13. You argued that injuries when you are younger can impact your quality of life as if injuries at older ages didn't have that kind of impact. 2. Droz's injuries are far more severe than Paige's and I directly compare the two because in using Paige as an example you seem to suggest that this could be Izzy's future. Paige retired at 26 3. Droz was forced into retirement at 29/30 All of the these things stand in stark contrast to your assertions that starting your career later is somehow more beneficial. You can not prepare for freak accidents, unforeseen injuries, or untimely deaths. That is at the core of my argument. That this is the ultimate risk you take and one at which copious amounts of training or age cannot prevent. That "let's assume same injures" thing was to lay the basis of a quick little thought experiment to express the point, you're taking a qualifying "let's just say" hypothetical and stretching it out to way more of a facet of my argument than it really needs to be. I'm pointing out a contradiction in the scenario. You said injuries and issues were the same, which to me implies that the way they affect her body are still the same in this hypothetical. Otherwise you would have said something like: If Paige started later her bones would have been more fully formed which would mean she wouldn't have scoliosis affect her has harshly as it does currently etc... You defined the parameters. I'm just working with them. Wrestling early can f*** things up harder How? The injuries are not worse if you are younger. They are not worse if you are older. The injuries are just diagnosed differently. - You can still sustain an injury that disrupts the quality of life - You can still sustain an injury that prevents or ends a career - You can still sustain a life ending injury - You can still sustain spinal injury - You can still sustain head trauma - You can still sustain broken bones - You can still sustain nerve damage If you are younger it affects you as you are growing, if you are older it affects how it functions at it's current mature state. It does not mean, in any way, that one age demographic can get an injury that the other one can't. In conclusion: Izzy shouldn't wrestle at this age not because it's dangerous risk on her body. It's a risk at any age. Izzy shouldn't wrestle at this age because she isn't old enough to fully understand and/or consent to the full ramifications of wrestling as a career path nor is equipped to defend herself from people who wish to take advantage of her. Which as it seems, even includes her own parents. My entire conceit, and this is my last post here because this back-and-forth is pointless if you're not understanding what I'm saying, is that wrestling negatively impacts your quality of life in unavoidable ways, and starting early marks off way more of your life to be lived in intense pain and with lingering health problems. Full stop, that's it. Everything else is just veering off into weird directions. The earlier you start in wrestling, the longer you're going to have to live with those horrible complications. The earlier you begin bumping and falling on your head, the fewer years you have without these problems.
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