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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2020 14:56:06 GMT -5
Funny things is, almost nobody complains about Connie from Steven Universe and she's an Indian character who's voiced by a white girl. So, yeah I don't think the problem is a white guy voicing an indian character, but a white guy voicing an ethnic stereotype. I think the first issue is the general insincerity the show has presented towards the issue "The Problem with Apu" presented (when your presence is underrepresented and effectively boiled down to a cartoon character that, over time, became even more of a cartoon character), predominantly with how the episode "No Good Read Goes Unpunished" addressed it, while a smaller, less talked about issue is the fact that the show retroactively erased a whole episode ("Stark Raving Dad") from its history just because Oprah Winfrey did "Surviving Neverland". The showrunners and producers knew for years about Jackson's less-than-savory reputation, particularly in the 2000s, when he was transformed from a pop culture icon to a freak show attraction, but historically pushed the episode as a milestone moment, and when this particular documentary came out in spite of its questionable motivations, their knee jerk reaction was "Oh shit! Jackson is going to be looked at poorly, we gotta do something!" Meanwhile, someone else presents, with some flaws of his own (such as how a good portion is him trying to bug Hank Azaria), a structured argument highlighting the difficulties of living in a world where all you had was an animated character voiced by a white guy that owned a convenience store and would regularly be told said character's catchphrase, to which a good portion of the internet called him a snowflake and other things. Does he represent all Indians? Nope. Not a chance. This once again highlights how the show worships celebrity. Oprah has never done the show, but the staff most likely revere her, so they took her word and rewrote history while openly mocked someone else. The other issue was that, and I mentioned this earlier in this thread but I don't think I fleshed out the details, but when Al Jean took over and the writing staff effectively became the Harvard Alumni Country Club, one of the first things Jean did was undo practically every character change (unless it was regarding a Simpson, *cough* Lisa's vegetarianism *cough*) that happened during the previous three showrunner tenures (Mirkin, Oakley & Weinstein, and Scully) since now that The Simpsons was essentially his show and their position on the Fox hierarchy was secured, he wanted things to revert back to a "daily strip" format of wackiness in which secondary and tertiary characters would be put back into their place and the show could once again focus exclusively on the Simpsons. Milhouse's parents got back together, Barney fell off the wagon, and to combat Maude's death, the show would just figure out as many ways as possible to incorporate Maude via flashbacks or the afterlife. Considering that Apu was a character that saw a lot of changes throughout those 8 years where his life was expanded upon, obviously he needed to be nerfed, as well. Manjula and the octuplets became virtually nonexistent to Apu's character aside from jokes about his infidelity, and what was supposed to be a somewhat (albeit warped, as was the style of the show) sincere take on his culture instead focused on "what wacky misunderstandings can we come up with this week?" Heck, the act 2 complication from the episode "Midnight RX" saw Apu, a Hindi practicing Indian, mistaken for a Muslim as the joke. This is where I felt like Braindump's "The Apu That I Know" entry collapsed, as you must recognize the Apu of then and the Apu of now. Characters with less than savory beginnings have managed to flourish under the right hands and, in essence, highlighted how art can overcome racism and bigotry while serving as a stark reminder of how things used to be and why we need to understand that, as times change, attitudes must also change. Conversely, though, characters that started off innocently can become terrible examples of stereotypes or overall laziness, and I'm not talking about the act of appropriation which the internet has done to characters like Mac Tonight and Pepe from Boy's Club. I'm referring to in-house works where staff have control over the destiny of their own creations, but decide to just wander and dumb down the character since it's easier to make a character fit a joke than to work on how the character can be used in a narrative. What was once a character that had multiple episodes revolve around him struggle to come to terms with not having his job or worry about deportation was now reduced to making jokes about how crazy his religion is to have a god with an elephant head or that he is upset when the guy who regularly robs him shoots somebody else. And this is where people who tend to complain about the show "cancelling" Apu seem to forget the character they knew and love is long gone, replaced by a silly person who dances when told, but as they stopped watching the show past a certain point and missed the further degeneration of the characters, only remember him at a certain point and assume the staff kept it going with that narrative. Dumping Apu is pretty easy; they just stop using the character. It's not that difficult for the writers to do so, especially as the show focuses so heavily on the main family now that it's a miracle when another character gets a few moments to do something; "The Fat Blue Line" was the first episode in a few years to focus extensively on a secondary character as the main story without the family butting in, and since the HD era started in season 20, only 5 episodes have essentially focused on secondary cast members. I think it would have been better for the writing staff to discuss the issue without being old grouches about it, but it's easier for them to yell at clouds.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Jan 18, 2020 15:36:08 GMT -5
They'll have a character who we havent seen in ages take over Apu's job like Eddie, Scott Christian, or Captain Lance Murdoch. Nah; just create a brand new character to yell at modern society. Voiced by a celebrity, no less! And what will they pay them with? Banana bread?! I always laugh at Apu snapping on Marge for that. lol.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 18, 2020 15:58:58 GMT -5
To quote Kevin Nash "It's not always about you, Mother bleeper". I am not an Indian American, I was not mocked and called Apu growing up(and I suspect many of the people complaining about this are in the similar boat I am in). I am not a in a group that has been underrepresented in Hollywood, over represented in stereotyping (although, I am in a group that does experience that); and it's not my place to tell someone of a certain group whether or not they should be offended. It's not about me, and it's not about you. And frankly, I don't think most people care, because the show is a zombie shell of itself anyway.
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Post by Dub H on Jan 18, 2020 16:19:12 GMT -5
"Virtue signalling" is one of the dumbest terms to ever catch on. It's so silly and hypocritical. You're "virtue signalling" every time you call out "virtue signalling." "I'm a really good person, so I'm above virtue signalling unlike them and everything I say is true and sincere." Talk about groan zone. Eh,it is a real thing,just used for everything it shouldnt. People that speak for some cause without actually doing anything about it.Pedophiles that speak against anything remotely sexual and try to look like saint(basically using as camouflage) for a grave example of it. Usually it is more about "talk without the walk" or being an hypocrite,not actually pointing something out you find wrong. Hell,a good example is WWE and the Susan Cancer Company.They don't care the money goes to a corrupt immoral charity,as long they get that PR cred.That is a business example of Virtue Signaling. A person example could be guys like artists Andrew Dobson, which will often speak over/insult even minorities in issues they are involved as long he is on the "moral" side. But anyway it is not a "HE SPOKE AGAINST SOMETHING,HE IS A VIRTUE SIGNALER" button as many try to use.
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Post by Terry McConkey on Jan 18, 2020 16:27:43 GMT -5
I'm glad Apu is being dropped. As much as I like the character, I came to realize over time that it was an unfair stereotype of Indian Americans. I feel the same level of cringe if I'm watching "Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle" and the white hoodlums harassing the indian store owner.
It's not "being a crybaby" to point this out. Our society has normalized various stereotypes and that's why there are people who don't seem to understand how offensive it is. You don't have to be a member of a race to feel offended.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jan 18, 2020 17:31:03 GMT -5
"Virtue signalling" is one of the dumbest terms to ever catch on. It's so silly and hypocritical. You're "virtue signalling" every time you call out "virtue signalling." "I'm a really good person, so I'm above virtue signalling unlike them and everything I say is true and sincere." Talk about groan zone. As with a lot of things, it's not so much the term that is the problem, but its overuse by people who just spew it out in lieu of any legitimate argument or criticism.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Jan 18, 2020 23:23:51 GMT -5
I think the Simpsons was still good well into its twenty-somethings. Its hot trash right now. I mean it's really bad.
And I dont think that many more people care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2020 23:38:03 GMT -5
I'll keep this as simple as I can. I'm glad Apu is out of here.
Yeah, he was ok in the 90s and 00s when characters like that were the norm in fiction but it's 2020 and it's not that place anymore. If Indian-Americans and those who relate to Apu based on his appearance and ethnicity feel upset by it then it's their right and it's not my right (a American black man from the South) to have any say that they can't feel that way nor that they are wrong. I'm not them. I'm not the one he represents so I shut the f*** up when it comes to those matters. We are not the same as we were decades ago and when people finally realize that maybe they'll grow up, learn and adapt rather than being stuck in the old days like shit is still cool. The world has changed and is still changing. Get with it or it'll pass you by.
Now, if there's a chance for Apu to return they need to abandon his voice, change what he previously was and basically shed him of his own self and say he's a government agent sent there to portray a stereotype in one of the only American towns that wouldn't realize that he's been undercover the whole time. It would bring light to how dumb Springfield commonly is and it would also show the viewers that characters like that aren't realistic and instead come straight out of a 90s fighting game.
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Post by Tenshigure on Jan 19, 2020 0:01:57 GMT -5
Now, if there's a chance for Apu to return they need to abandon his voice, change what he previously was and basically shed him of his own self and say he's a government agent sent there to portray a stereotype in one of the only American towns that wouldn't realize that he's been undercover the whole time. It would bring light to how dumb Springfield commonly is and it would also show the viewers that characters like that aren't realistic and instead come straight out of a 90s fighting game. Nah, that'd be treated like an episode gag and put it right back where they started. If they really want Indian representation on the show that respectfully retired a character, introduce an entirely new one that can contribute something to the show. Personally I don't see many long-term characters being introduced anytime soon, with each passing year getting closer to that inevitable finale of the series. The average age of the main six VAs is 63, with Yeardley Smith being the youngest at 55 and Harry Shearer being 76. They're renewed for at least the next two years, and will hit 700 episodes in the latter season. Unless they aim to go for 1,000, I wouldn't be surprised if that's where they finally call it, lest they end up in a situation where Father Time catches up with the cast.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2020 0:30:39 GMT -5
Now, if there's a chance for Apu to return they need to abandon his voice, change what he previously was and basically shed him of his own self and say he's a government agent sent there to portray a stereotype in one of the only American towns that wouldn't realize that he's been undercover the whole time. It would bring light to how dumb Springfield commonly is and it would also show the viewers that characters like that aren't realistic and instead come straight out of a 90s fighting game. Nah, that'd be treated like an episode gag and put it right back where they started. If they really want Indian representation on the show that respectfully retired a character, introduce an entirely new one that can contribute something to the show. Personally I don't see many long-term characters being introduced anytime soon, with each passing year getting closer to that inevitable finale of the series. The average age of the main six VAs is 63, with Yeardley Smith being the youngest at 55 and Harry Shearer being 76. They're renewed for at least the next two years, and will hit 700 episodes in the latter season. Unless they aim to go for 1,000, I wouldn't be surprised if that's where they finally call it, lest they end up in a situation where Father Time catches up with the cast. I can't even remember the last time I saw a recent Simpsons episode. I think it was sometime around 2003-2006 before I started working. Since then I've only heard how it's progressively gotten worse. Every show hits a point where they need to turn the lights off. Yeah it's Simpsons but judging from what I've heard it should have happened a long time ago.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 19, 2020 1:07:56 GMT -5
There's been some bright spots here and there, but for the most part, Simpsons has been trash for like the last 10 years at least.
It's sad that a show that was (in)famous for challenging the status quo in its prime has become so stale in maintaining its own status quo.
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Jan 19, 2020 10:44:04 GMT -5
So wait...
People are complaining because Apu is not voiced by an Indian person.
Ok. So then let's fix all the "problems" like this with this show.
Harry Shearer is going to have to be fired right away because he voices 2 Christians on the show while being Jewish himself. He also voices a black doctor, so that has to go too. Shearer is also not a nuclear power plant owner, a powerplant employee, a personal assistant, a news reporter, or a principal, so all those characters have to go.
Nancy Cartwright also has to go as I have just received word that she is not, in fact, a 10 year old boy, which is pretty much every character she voices on the show. So goodbye Bart, Ralph, Nelson, Kearney, and Todd.
Ditto for Yeardley Smith. She is much older than Lisa Simpson, so that can't be accurate. There's another character that has to be dropped.
Y'know, now that I think about it, are ANY of the people who voice these characters yellow people with 4 fingers? As far as I can tell, no. So f*** it, the whole cast and show have to be scrapped until we can locate enough yellow-skinned people with 4 fingers to voice all these characters.
I mean, I suppose we COULD just take a step back and realize that there are simply a huge amount of vocal whinebags who do nothing but look for reasons to be upset and offended, and then stop bending everyone elses lives to accomodate this vocal minority of professional offendees...but that seems like it won't happen anytime soon.
Jesus, I hate the time I live in. Thank god I have some memories left from before things were like this.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 19, 2020 12:38:02 GMT -5
So wait... People are complaining because Apu is not voiced by an Indian person. Ok. So then let's fix all the "problems" like this with this show. Harry Shearer is going to have to be fired right away because he voices 2 Christians on the show while being Jewish himself. He also voices a black doctor, so that has to go too. Shearer is also not a nuclear power plant owner, a powerplant employee, a personal assistant, a news reporter, or a principal, so all those characters have to go. Nancy Cartwright also has to go as I have just received word that she is not, in fact, a 10 year old boy, which is pretty much every character she voices on the show. So goodbye Bart, Ralph, Nelson, Kearney, and Todd. Ditto for Yeardley Smith. She is much older than Lisa Simpson, so that can't be accurate. There's another character that has to be dropped. Y'know, now that I think about it, are ANY of the people who voice these characters yellow people with 4 fingers? As far as I can tell, no. So f*** it, the whole cast and show have to be scrapped until we can locate enough yellow-skinned people with 4 fingers to voice all these characters. I mean, I suppose we COULD just take a step back and realize that there are simply a huge amount of vocal whinebags who do nothing but look for reasons to be upset and offended, and then stop bending everyone elses lives to accomodate this vocal minority of professional offendees...but that seems like it won't happen anytime soon. Jesus, I hate the time I live in. Thank god I have some memories left from before things were like this. So I meant to respond to this in a fairly low-key way but I accidentally went off a bit; apologies to you, Punky, because I've written a quite extensive post in response to something you probably only thought of as a brief observation, and it is more about the world at large than you specifically; I know we agree and disagree in equal measure on this forum if I remember right. That said. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}I almost never see this argument deployed by people who are not white men, and 'white man' has been considered the default for basically all characters in basically all media for millennia, so it's pretty easy to roll your eyes at other people complaining about poor representation, because white men are generally only represented badly in historical documentaries even now. edit: Forgot to mention here - you might not even be a white man, but you'd be one of the first examples of someone who wasn't using this argument.
So, if you're going to take it to this extreme, question, are you any of the following: - Indian - Christian - Jewish - Black - A worker at a nuclear power plant - A PA - A journalist - A principal - A 10-year-old boy - An 8-year-old girl - Yellow - Four-fingered
I am also none of the above. Well, actually I'm a retired journalist, and I used to be a teacher even if never a principal. But not the rest of it.
I guess that means that maybe both of us should listen to what people who are among those groups actually think about their representation on television?
I'll tell you what I am, however - autistic and pansexual, and boy we don't have a great time of it on television or in film.
As a pansexual, well first of all that word is almost never used on television, so we'll look at bisexuals instead since some folks use them interchangeably. I can think of precisely one positive role model on television, Rosa Diaz, and no other ones. Mostly just characters who are sluts, and are called sluts, or are used as punchlines like that awful one from Rent. I stopped watching Simpsons after season 17, but I don't think we have even shown up in an episode of Simpsons.
As an autistic person? Well, if I'm in a visual medium, I guess I'm just a miserable f*** to be around, a sob story, a burden on a parent, an isolated shut-in, an unsuitable parent, a nonverbal simpleton or some combination of those... that doesn't feel particularly nice either. In fact I'm pretty sure for a good few years if I told people I was autistic their go-to example would be Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory, who doesn't even get identified as being that. In fact I'm pretty sure the majority of the representation for people 'like me' on television is stealthy because they don't dare diagnose that shit.
If The Simpsons had bothered to represent either of those groups at all over the past thirty years - and let's be honest, in the latter case, they probably 'do' via the medium of Ralph Wiggum - then I'm pretty sure that even if originally the character was reasonably well-rounded and had been Flanderised in the meantime, the world would have moved on by now and it would be grossly outdated, and I would be pretty happy for them to retire the character so that we could all move on with our lives.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 19, 2020 13:04:20 GMT -5
Or he can, like I said, just join Team Family Guy, which surprisingly has remained un-neutered despite changes in regime.
Which makes me wonder again...how do MacFarlane, South Park, certain Adult Swim shows, continue to stay outrageous as ever in this day and age? Is it just expected of them to be outrageous and we just accept it?
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Post by eJm on Jan 19, 2020 13:14:28 GMT -5
Or he can, like I said, just join Team Family Guy, which surprisingly has remained un-neutered despite changes in regime. Which makes me wonder again...how do MacFarlane, South Park, certain Adult Swim shows, continue to stay outrageous as ever in this day and age? Is it just expected of them to be outrageous and we just accept it? Think it just comes down to consistency. Matt and Trey haven’t exactly gone anywhere else, the only other projects not being on television, Seth’s been at FOX for years (but no idea what this NBC deal will mean to any plans of a successor and such) and depending on how AS shows do, they aren’t exactly going to rock the boat on a success or at the very least giving a shot to something different. The Simpsons had so many rapid changes and show runners and whatever else that as mentioned by others, there have been three or four different versions of the show in its history.
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Jan 19, 2020 13:29:57 GMT -5
So wait... People are complaining because Apu is not voiced by an Indian person. Ok. So then let's fix all the "problems" like this with this show. Harry Shearer is going to have to be fired right away because he voices 2 Christians on the show while being Jewish himself. He also voices a black doctor, so that has to go too. Shearer is also not a nuclear power plant owner, a powerplant employee, a personal assistant, a news reporter, or a principal, so all those characters have to go. Nancy Cartwright also has to go as I have just received word that she is not, in fact, a 10 year old boy, which is pretty much every character she voices on the show. So goodbye Bart, Ralph, Nelson, Kearney, and Todd. Ditto for Yeardley Smith. She is much older than Lisa Simpson, so that can't be accurate. There's another character that has to be dropped. Y'know, now that I think about it, are ANY of the people who voice these characters yellow people with 4 fingers? As far as I can tell, no. So f*** it, the whole cast and show have to be scrapped until we can locate enough yellow-skinned people with 4 fingers to voice all these characters. I mean, I suppose we COULD just take a step back and realize that there are simply a huge amount of vocal whinebags who do nothing but look for reasons to be upset and offended, and then stop bending everyone elses lives to accomodate this vocal minority of professional offendees...but that seems like it won't happen anytime soon. Jesus, I hate the time I live in. Thank god I have some memories left from before things were like this. So I meant to respond to this in a fairly low-key way but I accidentally went off a bit; apologies to you, Punky, because I've written a quite extensive post in response to something you probably only thought of as a brief observation, and it is more about the world at large than you specifically; I know we agree and disagree in equal measure on this forum if I remember right. That said. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}I almost never see this argument deployed by people who are not white men, and 'white man' has been considered the default for basically all characters in basically all media for millennia, so it's pretty easy to roll your eyes at other people complaining about poor representation, because white men are generally only represented badly in historical documentaries even now. edit: Forgot to mention here - you might not even be a white man, but you'd be one of the first examples of someone who wasn't using this argument.
So, if you're going to take it to this extreme, question, are you any of the following: - Indian - Christian - Jewish - Black - A worker at a nuclear power plant - A PA - A journalist - A principal - A 10-year-old boy - An 8-year-old girl - Yellow - Four-fingered
I am also none of the above. Well, actually I'm a retired journalist, and I used to be a teacher even if never a principal. But not the rest of it.
I guess that means that maybe both of us should listen to what people who are among those groups actually think about their representation on television?
I'll tell you what I am, however - autistic and pansexual, and boy we don't have a great time of it on television or in film.
As a pansexual, well first of all that word is almost never used on television, so we'll look at bisexuals instead since some folks use them interchangeably. I can think of precisely one positive role model on television, Rosa Diaz, and no other ones. Mostly just characters who are sluts, and are called sluts, or are used as punchlines like that awful one from Rent. I stopped watching Simpsons after season 17, but I don't think we have even shown up in an episode of Simpsons.
As an autistic person? Well, if I'm in a visual medium, I guess I'm just a miserable f*** to be around, a sob story, a burden on a parent, an isolated shut-in, an unsuitable parent, a nonverbal simpleton or some combination of those... that doesn't feel particularly nice either. In fact I'm pretty sure for a good few years if I told people I was autistic their go-to example would be Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory, who doesn't even get identified as being that. In fact I'm pretty sure the majority of the representation for people 'like me' on television is stealthy because they don't dare diagnose that shit.
If The Simpsons had bothered to represent either of those groups at all over the past thirty years - and let's be honest, in the latter case, they probably 'do' via the medium of Ralph Wiggum - then I'm pretty sure that even if originally the character was reasonably well-rounded and had been Flanderised in the meantime, the world would have moved on by now and it would be grossly outdated, and I would be pretty happy for them to retire the character so that we could all move on with our lives.
No need to apologize for a well thought out, well worded rebuttal. This is the kind of dialog we need more of. That said, no, I am none of those things. I am, in fact, a white male. What I am is 6'3", 350 pounds. I was always a tall, fat kid. I was bullied mercilessly for my size as a kid, along with my early love of metal and having long hair during a time when NO little boys had long hair. I was an outsider in a town of less than 500 people who were all either related or who's families had all grown up together for generations. I had to fight almost daily for YEARS, simply for being a little different. So the idea that a white male has no room in this fight is ludicrous. No matter your skin color or gender, there is ALWAYS something someone can decide to hate you for. On this same coin, no one of my type has ever been cast as anything but a bumbling oaf. We're comedy relief in the entertainment world. This has been an issue for me as well, as I work as a professional musician. If I had a quarter for every time I've been told some stupid shit along the lines of "Boy, you don't look like that voice should come out of you" or had someone just assume that I am a member of the crew because I don't "look like a musician" or any number of other shit thrown at me simply because I am a large dude, I could have retired before I was 25. I have been passed over for more opportunities than I can count based simply on my look, with my talent having never even been considered. Thinking that I don't understand the struggle of being different simply because I was born white and male is not only unfair, but veers into the exact same type of behavior that is being condemned. When I see things like this Simpsons situation pop up, I see them very differently than most folks. I don't see a cry for equality, I see us being divided even further. Things like this SEEM right on the surface, but stop and think for a second: Are we emphasizing something that will somehow bring equality, or are we really just highlighting differences when we should be banding together in equality? From my standpoint, it's the latter. I don't give a shit what color you are, what gender you are, where you're from, who you choose as a partner...none of that matters to me. We are all simply people, each different from the last. We have GOT to stop engaging in these kinds of things that, again, SEEM just on the surface, but are really only serving to divide us further.
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Post by xCompackx on Jan 19, 2020 14:11:50 GMT -5
I'm personally not too torn up about the idea of Apu being dropped from the show; if it's a comfort to anybody who felt offended or misrepresented, why not? Apu's a memorable character, but it is what it is.
I feel like there should be caution calling his portrayal or the fact a white man was voicing him racist, though. I mean, Apu wasn't really portrayed any different than the other stereotypes the show features and, at least from what I've seen, they've given him more than "works at convenience store".
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Post by paulbearer on Jan 19, 2020 15:36:19 GMT -5
Simpsons w/o stereotypes is not really Simpsons , whats next no Italian stereotypes like mobster or pizza baker or not Scottish or Texan stereotypes (guns & cowboy hat) any more ?
I demand the removal of CBG as he's offensive to the geek community !
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 19, 2020 15:48:38 GMT -5
Man, this thread has some high quality intellectual dishonesty. I'm going to leave it at that.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 19, 2020 16:14:18 GMT -5
So I meant to respond to this in a fairly low-key way but I accidentally went off a bit; apologies to you, Punky, because I've written a quite extensive post in response to something you probably only thought of as a brief observation, and it is more about the world at large than you specifically; I know we agree and disagree in equal measure on this forum if I remember right. That said. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}I almost never see this argument deployed by people who are not white men, and 'white man' has been considered the default for basically all characters in basically all media for millennia, so it's pretty easy to roll your eyes at other people complaining about poor representation, because white men are generally only represented badly in historical documentaries even now. edit: Forgot to mention here - you might not even be a white man, but you'd be one of the first examples of someone who wasn't using this argument.
So, if you're going to take it to this extreme, question, are you any of the following: - Indian - Christian - Jewish - Black - A worker at a nuclear power plant - A PA - A journalist - A principal - A 10-year-old boy - An 8-year-old girl - Yellow - Four-fingered
I am also none of the above. Well, actually I'm a retired journalist, and I used to be a teacher even if never a principal. But not the rest of it.
I guess that means that maybe both of us should listen to what people who are among those groups actually think about their representation on television?
I'll tell you what I am, however - autistic and pansexual, and boy we don't have a great time of it on television or in film.
As a pansexual, well first of all that word is almost never used on television, so we'll look at bisexuals instead since some folks use them interchangeably. I can think of precisely one positive role model on television, Rosa Diaz, and no other ones. Mostly just characters who are sluts, and are called sluts, or are used as punchlines like that awful one from Rent. I stopped watching Simpsons after season 17, but I don't think we have even shown up in an episode of Simpsons.
As an autistic person? Well, if I'm in a visual medium, I guess I'm just a miserable f*** to be around, a sob story, a burden on a parent, an isolated shut-in, an unsuitable parent, a nonverbal simpleton or some combination of those... that doesn't feel particularly nice either. In fact I'm pretty sure for a good few years if I told people I was autistic their go-to example would be Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory, who doesn't even get identified as being that. In fact I'm pretty sure the majority of the representation for people 'like me' on television is stealthy because they don't dare diagnose that shit.
If The Simpsons had bothered to represent either of those groups at all over the past thirty years - and let's be honest, in the latter case, they probably 'do' via the medium of Ralph Wiggum - then I'm pretty sure that even if originally the character was reasonably well-rounded and had been Flanderised in the meantime, the world would have moved on by now and it would be grossly outdated, and I would be pretty happy for them to retire the character so that we could all move on with our lives.
No need to apologize for a well thought out, well worded rebuttal. This is the kind of dialog we need more of. That said, no, I am none of those things. I am, in fact, a white male. What I am is 6'3", 350 pounds. I was always a tall, fat kid. I was bullied mercilessly for my size as a kid, along with my early love of metal and having long hair during a time when NO little boys had long hair. I was an outsider in a town of less than 500 people who were all either related or who's families had all grown up together for generations. I had to fight almost daily for YEARS, simply for being a little different. So the idea that a white male has no room in this fight is ludicrous. No matter your skin color or gender, there is ALWAYS something someone can decide to hate you for. On this same coin, no one of my type has ever been cast as anything but a bumbling oaf. We're comedy relief in the entertainment world. This has been an issue for me as well, as I work as a professional musician. If I had a quarter for every time I've been told some stupid shit along the lines of "Boy, you don't look like that voice should come out of you" or had someone just assume that I am a member of the crew because I don't "look like a musician" or any number of other shit thrown at me simply because I am a large dude, I could have retired before I was 25. I have been passed over for more opportunities than I can count based simply on my look, with my talent having never even been considered. Thinking that I don't understand the struggle of being different simply because I was born white and male is not only unfair, but veers into the exact same type of behavior that is being condemned. When I see things like this Simpsons situation pop up, I see them very differently than most folks. I don't see a cry for equality, I see us being divided even further. Things like this SEEM right on the surface, but stop and think for a second: Are we emphasizing something that will somehow bring equality, or are we really just highlighting differences when we should be banding together in equality? From my standpoint, it's the latter. I don't give a shit what color you are, what gender you are, where you're from, who you choose as a partner...none of that matters to me. We are all simply people, each different from the last. We have GOT to stop engaging in these kinds of things that, again, SEEM just on the surface, but are really only serving to divide us further. Firstly, thankyou for engaging in this conversation in such a civil way. I love this f***ing forum, mang. Secondly - I feel you on your particular stripe of ostracism too. I was also a metalhead kid with long hair and got a lot of shit for that, but I can't imagine what it would be like in a town of 500 people. Third - I'm going to use the word 'fat' now; I am uncomfortable using it, but the fat people I know have told me that it is the least of the many evils compared to euphemistic other words, so people on here who are not happy with that either, please know I'm not doing that deliberately. I have been around fat people my whole life, and one of my current partners is also fat, despite being now - at 5'3 and 180lbs - the lightest she has been. And one thing that I can say is that as much as there has been progress in prejudice for people of colour, transpeople, queer people, and countless other minorities, fatphobia is something which is still vastly worst and completely accepted. I actually find it gross how there are a large number of people whose viewpoints and ethics align with mine quite strongly but don't include just... letting people be a heavier than what society thinks is acceptable. Where I don't agree is that controversies like this solely act to divide us; ideally it'd be real nice if we could all just equally not care whether someone was fat or a different race or sexuality or how any of these things were represented, but I think that is a utopian ideal that we are years away from yet, and until then, stuff like Apu doesn't help. But that's all just different opinions for different people.
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