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Post by romanstylesiii on Jan 19, 2020 16:30:55 GMT -5
There is several cartoons in India and and China where domestic actors voice white/black characters. In fact, this literally happens in every country in the world. These white/black american characters are often exaggerations.
People seem to care about being offended more than the do looking at the entirety of the facts. I would say, if you regularly get offended by things that have no real effect on society, you likely have a personality disorder.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 19, 2020 16:48:46 GMT -5
So, there's this Doctor Who story from the 70s called The Talons Of Weng-Chiang. It's always been pretty well regarded, and has a lot going right for it. The Doctor has an excellent Sherlock Holmes inspired outfit, his dynamic with Leela in the story is incredibly strong, it set up some cool ideas about the future of Earth and ideas of the 'Time Agents' which was reused in Captain Jack Harkness' storyline in 2005, and some of the background characters like Jago and Litefoot were so capitivating and well written that they managed to get an audio series that lasted for about eight seasons up until one of the actors passed away.
It also has some horrendous racism. The story was attempting to replicate a certain era of Edwardian 'yellow peril' stories, but rather than try and look at them critically, it basically cloned the racist tropes of that era, and also gave us a bunch of yellowface with John Bennett as Li H'Sen Chang (and other extras) doing bad Chinese accents and performing stereotypes.
There's quite a bit of discourse around the story, particularly since it was reaired in the Twitch Who marathons. There are those that claim that people who are 'woke' want to dismiss the story entirely, to declare it trash and consign it to history. But let's be honest, I'd be derided as woke by those crowds, but my opening paragraph celebrates all the things the story does right. I still giggle at the terrible effects of the giant rat and marvel at Robert Holmes' witty banter between the main cast. I think it develops Leela's character well, and it ties in to some of my favourite later books as well. But also, I recognise its faults and wish it could have done better with race, which was a bad look even at the time (and as a result it didn't get aired in Canada during its syndication).
And my argument with Apu is pretty much the same, except that Li H'Sen Chang didn't turn up into the 2010s being played the exact same. You can enjoy the stories he was a part of, but we also have to look at it critically and say "Is a white guy doing a stereotypical accent and playing up the worst possible tired race based character tropes really the best way this could have been done, and is it not better to salvage things and do it better now, rather than pretend nothing is wrong?"
The likes of Family Guy and South Park are going to keep insulting minorities for cheap giggles, and get away with it for some reason, but The Simpsons could do better, and did do better, and usually was at its peak when it challenged the status quo and was subversive. Wishing that it could have extended that to all of its characters is no bad thing.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 19, 2020 17:07:25 GMT -5
There is several cartoons in India and and China where domestic actors voice white/black characters. In fact, this literally happens in every country in the world. These white/black american characters are often exaggerations. People seem to care about being offended more than the do looking at the entirety of the facts. I would say, if you regularly get offended by things that have no real effect on society, you likely have a personality disorder. It being done in China and India by non-white actors is not remotely the same thing. Racial experience is not that straightforwardly transferable or reversible.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 19, 2020 17:17:24 GMT -5
Relating dubs of animation from other countries to a domestic cartoon using exaggerated accents to propagate harmful stereotypes of minority populations is at best a strawman and at worst intellectual dishonesty.
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wildojinx
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Post by wildojinx on Jan 19, 2020 18:45:12 GMT -5
I'm surprised there was never a backlash over the episode Pygmoelion. Funny, quotable episode ("Duffman cant breathe! Oh no!" "With sexy results") but, near the beginning, Moe uses a word that's considered an anti-Irish slur. I don't mean something along the lines of "Look out Itchy! He's Irish", I mean, the actual word.
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Post by ogreknee on Jan 19, 2020 19:21:16 GMT -5
So the guy who did the Apu movie did a contest for a spec script to fix the Apu problem, and the story is to have Apu and a bunch of other Indian Americans buy up a bunch of stores in Springfield? How does doing a "East Indians take over the town" story fix anything? Or is that only a stereotype in Canada? Um well the problem is not apu as a conveniance store owner. But that people are dumb. Did not see him as a playboy when indians and asians in general have been portrayed in western media as eunichs socially. Dude was involved. A successful business man. And a family man Hell in that one episode it is revealed he owns the kwik e mart and his millennial nephew ruins it. Springfield has portrayed the minorities more than their skin color My problem with the sjw culture is that accents are seen as offensive. That asians should be fully assimilated and accents show us as others. What i liked about fresh off the boat is that it is an immigrant story. Where people with accents are the main characters and the jokes are backwards white people who try to be as pc as possible. How is an accent problematic. How is connie from steven universe different? Brown girl falls for white kid and both voiced by white people Khan in koth again voiced by white guy but he was written in a way that he was seen as a person not a one note joke And in that episode where the nephew talks about the problem with apu. Just making the town have more than one or two asian families helps. How springfield has not gone further with a china town or little tokyo. Makes me.confused. But then as an asian simpsond fan. I just enjoy the show for what it is.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 20, 2020 4:07:11 GMT -5
I'm surprised there was never a backlash over the episode Pygmoelion. Funny, quotable episode ("Duffman cant breathe! Oh no!" "With sexy results") but, near the beginning, Moe uses a word that's considered an anti-Irish slur. I don't mean something along the lines of "Look out Itchy! He's Irish", I mean, the actual word. They’ve stated several times in the past that only the Irish and Canadians don’t get upset when they get made fun of on the show.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 5:40:27 GMT -5
How is an accent problematic. Because it's someone not of that nationality doing a very stereotypical, exaggerated depiction of it that real life people have been harassed over. No one's saying Apu shouldn't have an accent, it's that if you want to do that you could at least be respectful with it by getting someone who is actually Indian to do something a little more grounded. And a key difference with Connie is that she doesn't have an accent and isn't surrounded by stereotypes. Her ethnicity is if anything completely incidental.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 20, 2020 6:16:23 GMT -5
How is an accent problematic. Because it's someone not of that nationality doing a very stereotypical, exaggerated depiction of it that real life people have been harassed over. No one's saying Apu shouldn't have an accent, it's that if you want to do that you could at least be respectful with it by getting someone who is actually Indian to do something a little more grounded. And a key difference with Connie is that she doesn't have an accent and isn't surrounded by stereotypes. Her ethnicity is if anything completely incidental. Her ethnicity informs some aspects of the character (her parents are in traditional clothing in pictures in their home, Connie's training clothing and fighting style when she learns sword fighting is seemingly referencing kalaripayattu, an Indian martial art), but yeah, she's not really saddled with stereotypes. The only one I can think of would be her drive for academic excellence being something that is often gone for with Asian characters, not just Eastern Asian, but that's basically it, and even then, she's more defined by her enthusiasm for some of the fantasy elements of the series, especially once "Gem Stuff" just kind of becomes a way of life for Steven and he's not as wowed by it as he was by it in season 1.
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adamclark52
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Post by adamclark52 on Jan 20, 2020 6:47:43 GMT -5
I'm surprised there was never a backlash over the episode Pygmoelion. Funny, quotable episode ("Duffman cant breathe! Oh no!" "With sexy results") but, near the beginning, Moe uses a word that's considered an anti-Irish slur. I don't mean something along the lines of "Look out Itchy! He's Irish", I mean, the actual word. They’ve stated several times in the past that only the Irish and Canadians don’t get upset when they get made fun of on the show. Canadians are just happy to be included on a global platform
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Jan 20, 2020 7:33:59 GMT -5
Honestly, I don’t see any real issue one way or another. Sounds is a side character, so it’s not like losing him would render the show unfeasible. They’ve continued for years after having to drop Mrs Krebapple, and has it crippled them all that much? The Simpsons is long past it’s “use by” date anyway.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 20, 2020 9:22:25 GMT -5
So, there's this Doctor Who story from the 70s called The Talons Of Weng-Chiang. It's always been pretty well regarded, and has a lot going right for it. The Doctor has an excellent Sherlock Holmes inspired outfit, his dynamic with Leela in the story is incredibly strong, it set up some cool ideas about the future of Earth and ideas of the 'Time Agents' which was reused in Captain Jack Harkness' storyline in 2005, and some of the background characters like Jago and Litefoot were so capitivating and well written that they managed to get an audio series that lasted for about eight seasons up until one of the actors passed away. It also has some horrendous racism. The story was attempting to replicate a certain era of Edwardian 'yellow peril' stories, but rather than try and look at them critically, it basically cloned the racist tropes of that era, and also gave us a bunch of yellowface with John Bennett as Li H'Sen Chang (and other extras) doing bad Chinese accents and performing stereotypes. There's quite a bit of discourse around the story, particularly since it was reaired in the Twitch Who marathons. There are those that claim that people who are 'woke' want to dismiss the story entirely, to declare it trash and consign it to history. But let's be honest, I'd be derided as woke by those crowds, but my opening paragraph celebrates all the things the story does right. I still giggle at the terrible effects of the giant rat and marvel at Robert Holmes' witty banter between the main cast. I think it develops Leela's character well, and it ties in to some of my favourite later books as well. But also, I recognise its faults and wish it could have done better with race, which was a bad look even at the time (and as a result it didn't get aired in Canada during its syndication). And my argument with Apu is pretty much the same, except that Li H'Sen Chang didn't turn up into the 2010s being played the exact same. You can enjoy the stories he was a part of, but we also have to look at it critically and say "Is a white guy doing a stereotypical accent and playing up the worst possible tired race based character tropes really the best way this could have been done, and is it not better to salvage things and do it better now, rather than pretend nothing is wrong?" The likes of Family Guy and South Park are going to keep insulting minorities for cheap giggles, and get away with it for some reason, but The Simpsons could do better, and did do better, and usually was at its peak when it challenged the status quo and was subversive. Wishing that it could have extended that to all of its characters is no bad thing. I would say there is a difference between what Family Guy and South Park does. South Park does play into stereotypes but they usually do without insulting then.Maybe it is their "everyone is a fool" policy,everyone gets made fun off and recently especially white people. Still one of the best explanations to me of the n-word was south park's episode. They do have some misses like(personally) the f-word episode which they do their point well without being insulting ,I still think the message is not right.Or the early episodes where they have Chinese commentators. They definitely toe a line(to both sides) but I feel like most times they succeed in not being insulting
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 20, 2020 9:44:28 GMT -5
Why is the word "offended" only used by the defenders of the white guy voicing an Indian? Could it be projection? I'm not offended, lol. It's literally just a "grow up and get some common sense" thing. If I was Indian, damn right I'd be, and justified. But I mean, posts like this: So wait... People are complaining because Apu is not voiced by an Indian person. Ok. So then let's fix all the "problems" like this with this show. Harry Shearer is going to have to be fired right away because he voices 2 Christians on the show while being Jewish himself. He also voices a black doctor, so that has to go too. Shearer is also not a nuclear power plant owner, a powerplant employee, a personal assistant, a news reporter, or a principal, so all those characters have to go. Nancy Cartwright also has to go as I have just received word that she is not, in fact, a 10 year old boy, which is pretty much every character she voices on the show. So goodbye Bart, Ralph, Nelson, Kearney, and Todd. Ditto for Yeardley Smith. She is much older than Lisa Simpson, so that can't be accurate. There's another character that has to be dropped. Y'know, now that I think about it, are ANY of the people who voice these characters yellow people with 4 fingers? As far as I can tell, no. So f*** it, the whole cast and show have to be scrapped until we can locate enough yellow-skinned people with 4 fingers to voice all these characters. I mean, I suppose we COULD just take a step back and realize that there are simply a huge amount of vocal whinebags who do nothing but look for reasons to be upset and offended, and then stop bending everyone elses lives to accomodate this vocal minority of professional offendees...but that seems like it won't happen anytime soon. Jesus, I hate the time I live in. Thank god I have some memories left from before things were like this. come across as offended. Outright namecalling and the classic "MUCH BETTER IN MY DAY" rhetoric.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jan 20, 2020 11:31:11 GMT -5
Says something when this spurns the most conversation still regarding Simpson’s. Kill this show, I’m as old as it and this dreck better not outlive me.
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Post by ogreknee on Jan 20, 2020 12:27:12 GMT -5
How is an accent problematic. Because it's someone not of that nationality doing a very stereotypical, exaggerated depiction of it that real life people have been harassed over. No one's saying Apu shouldn't have an accent, it's that if you want to do that you could at least be respectful with it by getting someone who is actually Indian to do something a little more grounded. And a key difference with Connie is that she doesn't have an accent and isn't surrounded by stereotypes. Her ethnicity is if anything completely incidental. Nah that still is white washing a role that could go to an asian person And i know they have a voice cast with tons of asians. I just find it funny that one of the actual asians on the show is voiced by a white girl. Lars is distinctly filipino and is voiced by a chinese dude I also do think that over the years Apu got toned down. Much apu about nothing could have been the start of something. Surrounding Apu by other south asians would do much. I mean they still got that real estate agent number 1 on the east side. The sushi chef. I mean comic book guy's wife is a problematic white man fantasy and plays into the whole asian women worshiping white men deal that hollywood loves. But eh. I found Kahn's story in king of the hill pretty damn endearing. And yeah he was also voiced by the same guy who did cotton. But there was nuance. Apu was one of the best written characters in the simpsons. If they want to get Hasan minaj or whatever south asian to become the new voice of apu i see no problem with that. I do see a problem. In just phasing out a character that was so engrained in simpsons
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jan 20, 2020 12:51:19 GMT -5
So, there's this Doctor Who story from the 70s called The Talons Of Weng-Chiang. It's always been pretty well regarded, and has a lot going right for it. The Doctor has an excellent Sherlock Holmes inspired outfit, his dynamic with Leela in the story is incredibly strong, it set up some cool ideas about the future of Earth and ideas of the 'Time Agents' which was reused in Captain Jack Harkness' storyline in 2005, and some of the background characters like Jago and Litefoot were so capitivating and well written that they managed to get an audio series that lasted for about eight seasons up until one of the actors passed away. It also has some horrendous racism. The story was attempting to replicate a certain era of Edwardian 'yellow peril' stories, but rather than try and look at them critically, it basically cloned the racist tropes of that era, and also gave us a bunch of yellowface with John Bennett as Li H'Sen Chang (and other extras) doing bad Chinese accents and performing stereotypes. There's quite a bit of discourse around the story, particularly since it was reaired in the Twitch Who marathons. There are those that claim that people who are 'woke' want to dismiss the story entirely, to declare it trash and consign it to history. But let's be honest, I'd be derided as woke by those crowds, but my opening paragraph celebrates all the things the story does right. I still giggle at the terrible effects of the giant rat and marvel at Robert Holmes' witty banter between the main cast. I think it develops Leela's character well, and it ties in to some of my favourite later books as well. But also, I recognise its faults and wish it could have done better with race, which was a bad look even at the time (and as a result it didn't get aired in Canada during its syndication). And my argument with Apu is pretty much the same, except that Li H'Sen Chang didn't turn up into the 2010s being played the exact same. You can enjoy the stories he was a part of, but we also have to look at it critically and say "Is a white guy doing a stereotypical accent and playing up the worst possible tired race based character tropes really the best way this could have been done, and is it not better to salvage things and do it better now, rather than pretend nothing is wrong?" The likes of Family Guy and South Park are going to keep insulting minorities for cheap giggles, and get away with it for some reason, but The Simpsons could do better, and did do better, and usually was at its peak when it challenged the status quo and was subversive. Wishing that it could have extended that to all of its characters is no bad thing. I would say there is a difference between what Family Guy and South Park does. South Park does play into stereotypes but they usually do without insulting then.Maybe it is their "everyone is a fool" policy,everyone gets made fun off and recently especially white people. Still one of the best explanations to me of the n-word was south park's episode. They do have some misses like(personally) the f-word episode which they do their point well without being insulting ,I still think the message is not right.Or the early episodes where they have Chinese commentators. They definitely toe a line(to both sides) but I feel like most times they succeed in not being insulting Another person said it early, but the idea is in the context of a joke. The guys at South Park can use those sterotypes to point out the flaws in those sterotypes and people who believe them. Same with what Dave Chappelle was doing with Chappelle show. The great comedians can walk that line and be brillant at it. Bad comedy just uses the sterotypes to make jokes at a race and hide their prejudices behind a veil of comedy. Honestly, I think part of the issue is the age of the Simpsons. 80 years ago it wasn't considered racist to do a black or Asian sterotype with looney tunes, mgm, or disney cartoons. Around the same time as the Simpsons, Married with Children was making fat and sexist jokes about women. Thirty years ago, a white guy doing an indian accent didn't bat an eye. Twenty years ago it was okay to call a wrestler a derogatory terms for a homosexual. Times changed and we can see the effect that saying these things have on others. That documentary shown a light on the effect Apu was having on Indian people of a certain age and maybe it's time the Simpsons evolve Apu a little more than a mart employee.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 20, 2020 14:47:45 GMT -5
They’ve stated several times in the past that only the Irish and Canadians don’t get upset when they get made fun of on the show. Canadians are just happy to be included on a global platform Pretty much. When some Yankee show mocks Canadians we don’t get mad, we’re like “Hey, they remember we exist!!!! F*** yeah!!”
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 20, 2020 22:01:55 GMT -5
I'm surprised there was never a backlash over the episode Pygmoelion. Funny, quotable episode ("Duffman cant breathe! Oh no!" "With sexy results") but, near the beginning, Moe uses a word that's considered an anti-Irish slur. I don't mean something along the lines of "Look out Itchy! He's Irish", I mean, the actual word. They’ve stated several times in the past that only the Irish and Canadians don’t get upset when they get made fun of on the show. The Irish wouldn't dare, because they'd get a good whacking.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,921
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 20, 2020 22:33:19 GMT -5
They’ve stated several times in the past that only the Irish and Canadians don’t get upset when they get made fun of on the show. The Irish wouldn't dare, because they'd get a good whacking. When my buddy started at work, from Ireland, I used to always make some potato related comment at break, just being an ass. "Potatoes again?" "Where's your potato?!" Stuff like that. Things went on for months. Finally one day our supervisor comes up to us, all excited, "Did you know Irish people eat a lot of potatoes?!!!!" I said, "Yeah, that's the stereotype. What do you think I've been doing for the last 4 months?!"
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Jan 21, 2020 1:22:33 GMT -5
So, was Apu quietly retired yet?
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