Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 23, 2020 5:36:48 GMT -5
I’ll defend it. It’s a cartoon using voice actors. Plenty of voice actors play parts that in no way match their actual selves. If a white man can play an Indian character well then I see no problem. This isn’t blackface. If people think the character was written offensively I can buy that. Though I disagree I can understand, I can’t and won’t buy any good voice actors being denied worn because of race. I find a beauty and artistic merit in listening to greet voice actors changing there voice to totally different personas I don’t have an issue with Azaria stepping down and an Indian voice actor doing the role. I do respect the struggles minorities have in getting into version professions. If this helps someone get a name for themselves and start there career I do find that a good thing. Fair enough that’s your opinion but when I hear a white dude putting on a fake stereotypical Indian accent I can’t see the beauty in that. If they are just doing it in their own voice then yeah of course what does race matter but doing the accent is beyond dodgy (in my opinion) They've literally shown pretending to be a cheap stereotype of another race to be bad in the show 20 years ago, Krusty's "Me so solly" bit and how that went down.
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Feyrhausen
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Feyrhausen on Jan 23, 2020 5:53:07 GMT -5
I always love stuff like this because you get to see the incredulity of those on social media or other platforms for whom the prospect of showing respect to other people or being respectful of their feelings/wishes is so mind-boggling. “Why do I have to take in other people’s viewpoint???? Everyone should just listen to mine” I’m Scottish and yeah Groundskeeper Willie is my representation and I’m not offended by it and so I cant say that I understand those complaining about Apu because to me it’s harmless but you know what? I’m not the one getting called Apu or having “Thank you, come again” at me so that’s why you take the viewpoints of other people on board. Plus how anyone could actually defend a white man doing an Indian accent in this day and age is beyond me Plus the Simpsons is s*** anyway. 20 years of mediocrity Plus there is the issue of positive representation. If you are Scottish living in America in the 90s you had Groundskeeper Willie as a negative stereotype. But you also had Braveheart as some positive. What did an Indian person have? Brownface Fisher Stevens in Short Circuit 2?
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Kyn
Don Corleone
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Post by Kyn on Jan 23, 2020 8:30:24 GMT -5
This is one of those necrothreads that just makes me think, in 18 pages of arguing, how many people actually changed their mind? We're all just screaming into a void here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 9:31:10 GMT -5
Anyone else feel like the writers chose this route just so they could play the victims? Wouldn't surprise me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 9:33:12 GMT -5
To put it bluntly, King of the Hill is just better written than The Simpsons. I mean, on paper, there's a lot of similarities between the two: both Asian characters, written and voiced by white guys, bearing their share of stereotypical traits. But in practice, Khan actually feels like a three-dimensional character, while Apu just feels like a racist accent and a catchphrase. I can’t disagree more. Apu is much more than an accent and a catch phrase. Had a pretty good character and one of the intelligent characters on the show. I’ve never seen Apu as racist. If anything the character became more flagged out as the series progressed. He went from stereotypical Indian store clerk to having a multi layered back story. And then the character became a literal cardboard cutout. They giveth and then they taketh away. And I feel like that's lost in these discussions, as what good is the development of he's not presented as anything more than "wacky character #85"?
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Malcolm
Grimlock
Wanted something done about the color of his ring.
Eternally Confused
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Post by Malcolm on Jan 23, 2020 9:39:32 GMT -5
For all the talk about Apu being a deep character, people also seem to forget that the writers pretty much undid all of that an in essence turned him into a racist stereotype.
I may be remembering this wrong but a few years back I remember seeing on youtube a really cringey scene where Apu bites into a veggie burger and says something to the effect of "Now I can finally eat a burger and still be a Hindu" and then starts dancing and singing in a really stereotypical Indian way.
My first response was "...what?".
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Post by realist on Jan 23, 2020 9:42:33 GMT -5
This is one of those necrothreads that just makes me think, in 18 pages of arguing, how many people actually changed their mind? We're all just screaming into a void here. I did. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I went into the thread months ago not seeing how Apu was that problematic. However, after seeing some of the arguments made, I can see the issue.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jan 23, 2020 12:26:43 GMT -5
I can’t disagree more. Apu is much more than an accent and a catch phrase. Had a pretty good character and one of the intelligent characters on the show. I’ve never seen Apu as racist. If anything the character became more flagged out as the series progressed. He went from stereotypical Indian store clerk to having a multi layered back story. And then the character became a literal cardboard cutout. They giveth and then they taketh away. And I feel like that's lost in these discussions, as what good is the development of he's not presented as anything more than "wacky character #85"? Some of the newer episodes have gone that with every character sadly. With Apu even with the few moments like mentioned above he was still presented as a very intelligent and hard working character. The entire show is based on stereotypes. Apu is just one of many on the show. Every character will occasionally act like their stereotype. Apu is better than most dude characters as he isn’t JUST a stereotype.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jan 23, 2020 12:30:46 GMT -5
This is one of those necrothreads that just makes me think, in 18 pages of arguing, how many people actually changed their mind? We're all just screaming into a void here. I didn’t change my mind but I do understand others viewpoints and respect the difference in opinion. If we build a better understanding of different viewpoints that is only a good thing. Read and listened to people who were in support of and against Apu. After reading and listening to those I came to my conclusion at this time. My opinion may or may not change over time.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jan 23, 2020 12:37:57 GMT -5
This is one of those necrothreads that just makes me think, in 18 pages of arguing, how many people actually changed their mind? We're all just screaming into a void here. I probably did. Or at least my stance lightened. Since the thread was brought up again, I like that people on both sides have brought up nuanced arguments illustrating that this (like most things) is a complex issue and needs to be discussed as so. Much to the chagrin of extremes on both sides, probably, who im sure wished things were as simple as “X” and “Y”.
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Post by ogreknee on Jan 23, 2020 12:56:08 GMT -5
I'm not an expert on either show, I've barely watched them but I was curious in what the difference was between these two. I have no dog in this fight but I got slightly confused by this. To put it bluntly, King of the Hill is just better written than The Simpsons. I mean, on paper, there's a lot of similarities between the two: both Asian characters, written and voiced by white guys, bearing their share of stereotypical traits. But in practice, Khan actually feels like a three-dimensional character, while Apu just feels like a racist accent and a catchphrase. Most of the character building they had done. The masters degree. Going from a playboy to getting married. It was done well and good. But after that apu just became known for thank you; come again. And being in the background. Simpsons made Apu more than just a joke. Then turned him back into a joke. I mean they were respectful of him. Apu was this immigrant who fell in love with america and made his own way in the states with a convenience store. It is something south asian and other asian kids know about. But perception by the audience is "lol look at brown people they all work at 7/11 & have funny names" Much Apu about nothing did this whole subject justice. And well i loved that as a swan song for apu. Just make the nephew a regular. Kahn was this loud boisterous asian immigrant who struggled and revelled in being a model minority. "I'm asian more expected of me". He was a jackass but he was also fully fleshed out. They were not the only laotion family in arlen. In the first season kahn brought out the worst in hank. Eventually they all accepted each other as neighbors Kahn is one of the best asian immigrant stories in media. But he is voiced by a white guy who took cambodian lessons and got the accent and dialect down to a tee. Hank Azaria also went this route. But yeah nowadays shit is flipped White people shouldn't voice everyone And yes johnny yong bosch shouldn't voice every shonen
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
Posts: 6,484
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jan 23, 2020 16:20:35 GMT -5
To put it bluntly, King of the Hill is just better written than The Simpsons. I mean, on paper, there's a lot of similarities between the two: both Asian characters, written and voiced by white guys, bearing their share of stereotypical traits. But in practice, Khan actually feels like a three-dimensional character, while Apu just feels like a racist accent and a catchphrase. Most of the character building they had done. The masters degree. Going from a playboy to getting married. It was done well and good. But after that apu just became known for thank you; come again. And being in the background. Simpsons made Apu more than just a joke. Then turned him back into a joke. I mean they were respectful of him. Apu was this immigrant who fell in love with america and made his own way in the states with a convenience store. It is something south asian and other asian kids know about. But perception by the audience is "lol look at brown people they all work at 7/11 & have funny names" Much Apu about nothing did this whole subject justice. And well i loved that as a swan song for apu. Just make the nephew a regular. Kahn was this loud boisterous asian immigrant who struggled and revelled in being a model minority. "I'm asian more expected of me". He was a jackass but he was also fully fleshed out. They were not the only laotion family in arlen. In the first season kahn brought out the worst in hank. Eventually they all accepted each other as neighbors Kahn is one of the best asian immigrant stories in media. But he is voiced by a white guy who took cambodian lessons and got the accent and dialect down to a tee. Hank Azaria also went this route. But yeah nowadays shit is flipped White people shouldn't voice everyone And yes johnny yong bosch shouldn't voice every shonen I definitely agree that white people shouldnt voice everyone. However there shouldn’t be an issue if a qualified white person voices a non white character. Same with any other race. Azaria has voiced different races and is insanely talented. I think he has deserved a chance to rectify the character While I disagree with the notion (IMHO Every Simpson’s character played a stereotype), I understand the complaints of the character being insensitive. I think it would have been ok to have Azaria continue with the character but to try and write it to be less offensive. Just going to have to accept that we will respectfully disagree on different discussions.
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Post by ogreknee on Jan 23, 2020 16:30:23 GMT -5
Hank is a character it is up to the writers and directors who gets to be what. Much Apu About Nothing was an excellent counter to apu is only a one note joke The texas oil guy is that Luigi is that sometimes youtu.be/7hNIErcXWEgHell Cletus is what most foreigners think we are I mean even brits only reference for americans was the simpsons And we are fat, loud, and ignorant people Now hank in the birdcage is way too camp
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jan 24, 2020 3:33:09 GMT -5
They'll have a character who we havent seen in ages take over Apu's job like Eddie, Scott Christian, or Captain Lance Murdoch. Nah; just create a brand new character to yell at modern society. Voiced by a celebrity, no less! They'd just bring back that guy played by Ricky Gervais and have him complain all the time about kids these days being overly offended
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jan 24, 2020 3:59:24 GMT -5
For all the talk about Apu being a deep character, people also seem to forget that the writers pretty much undid all of that an in essence turned him into a racist stereotype.
I may be remembering this wrong but a few years back I remember seeing on youtube a really cringey scene where Apu bites into a veggie burger and says something to the effect of "Now I can finally eat a burger and still be a Hindu" and then starts dancing and singing in a really stereotypical Indian way.
My first response was "...what?".
He got did some dirty, and Manjula arguably got it even worse. After the episode where Apu cheats on her, she got reduced to her one character note being "the nag" which is already a Marge character beat when they need it anyway.
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Post by DoubleDare on Jan 24, 2020 13:50:00 GMT -5
I haven't watched the Simpsons in over 10 years, I could care less if they keep apu or not. Really just end the show if it can't fit into the lame sjw society we are in now, we'll always have the classic seasons to watch.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jan 25, 2020 10:36:25 GMT -5
For all the talk about Apu being a deep character, people also seem to forget that the writers pretty much undid all of that an in essence turned him into a racist stereotype. I may be remembering this wrong but a few years back I remember seeing on youtube a really cringey scene where Apu bites into a veggie burger and says something to the effect of "Now I can finally eat a burger and still be a Hindu" and then starts dancing and singing in a really stereotypical Indian way. My first response was "...what?".
He got did some dirty, and Manjula arguably got it even worse. After the episode where Apu cheats on her, she got reduced to her one character note being "the nag" which is already a Marge character beat when they need it anyway. She is the stereotypical woman scorned. Did the same thing to Luann Van Houten. It’s a show about stereotypes It’s not The Simpsons job to have positive non-stereotypical characters. Every ethnicity is represented by a stereotype. Not their fault no one else had an Indian character. Hollywood should receive criticism, not the show about stereotypes
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 13:05:05 GMT -5
Wasn't there a whole documentary about this and such like years ago, is this still a thing? *checks* Okay, they dropped the voice dude in january.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 25, 2020 13:23:09 GMT -5
I think it's worth noting (again) that Hank Azaria's been nothing but cordial and wanting to do right by people with this whole controversy. Al Jean on the other hand...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 13:41:05 GMT -5
I think it's worth noting (again) that Hank Azaria's been nothing but cordial and wanting to do right by people with this whole controversy. Al Jean on the other hand... And this is, again, something that is lost on people. The average layperson still thinks this is Groening's thing, but he effectively left for everything except merchandise reasons at around Season 9 or so. The show has been all Al for the better part of 2 decades, and Jean is notoriously whiny and abrasive when it comes to criticism.
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